5 ms·

This also varies somewhat by state; there's a law in California (Labor Code section 2870[1]) that bars employers from claiming work that an employee does "on hi

by rst 16y ago

This also varies somewhat by state; there's a law in California (Labor Code section 2870[1]) that bars employers from claiming work that an employee does "on his or her own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities or trade secret information" unless the invention relates directly to the employer's business. I'd still check with a lawyer, though, even if in California --- and if elsewhere, most states are a lot less generous. [1] http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=02001-03000&file=2870-2872 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&#3...

elai 16y ago
There was also a similar clause in my washington employment contract. The law even states that the clause must be put in all contracts and still applies if it doesn't.
tptacek 16y ago
It may be harder than you expect to establish that you're not in a business related to your former employer, at least to the extent that you can quickly end a legal action; all I'm saying is, that legal safeguard may not be as helpful as you'd hope.
- rst 16y ago
  Particularly if the employer is someone like Microsoft or Google that does, well... a little of everything. As I said, it's definitely worth consulting a lawyer before taking anything for granted.
- Natsu 16y ago
  You're absolutely right. There are really two questions here: * Does my employer own this? * Will they make me prove that in court? The damnable thing is that, even if you really do own your work, having to prove that you own it in court may kill your startup by making you run out of money.
  - aaronblohowiak 16y ago
    The other way of looking at your latter point: I try to work for people who would brag about successful former employees. Enlightened managers cultivate an "alumni network."
    - Natsu 16y ago
      The world needs more managers like that.
- kjhghjkjh 16y ago
  Remember that you aren't trying to convince a bunch of HN readers - you are trying to convince a judge (who thinks computers are magic boxes) If your day job is Oracle DBA and your startup is iPhone apps or web design that still equals the same "computer stuff" to a judge.
  - bigiain 16y ago
    I'm pretty sure Oracle is a good example of a company that makes you agree that they own everything you think of while employed by them. A friend of mine became an Oracle employee when the company he worked for got acquired, and ended up needing to get approval from a long way up the org chart to be able to continue doing his phd, since the university had existing claims on ip in his phd research. For quite a long time he described himself as " technically not being allowed to think anything..."
    - kjhghjkjh 16y ago
      It's not oracle specificaly it's that if you are say a structural ironworker during the day and make bronze sculptures as a hobby then a judge will understand they are different. But they might not understand that being a sysadmin is as different to being a web designer in the evening.
      - bigiain 16y ago
        Sorry, I should have been more clear. As I understand it, Oracle's standard employment agreement includes language saying you agree that Oracle owns every idea you have while employed by them, whether on "paid hours" or not, whether related to databases or software in general or not - if you're a database engineer for Oracle and you invent a better tap washer, Oracle seem to think they'll own your plumbing related invention. There's workarounds for at least limited exceptions to that standard rule, but it's apparently unusual and required signoff at many levels above the typical workers management.
cdibona 16y ago
Be sure to read subsections 1 & 2, they're really really important.
alok-g 16y ago
Careful. This applies only to "inventions." Do not generalize this to "work." Copyrightable works are not included, and so software isn't. Reason for edit: Fixed typos.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Yes, But the point is that most large companies will, on general principle, have you sign a piece of paper giving them everything they can imagine getting from you. Then it's up to you to figure out what existing laws says you can take back.

by rst 16y ago

elai 16y ago

There was also a similar clause in my washington employment contract. The law even states that the clause must be put in all contracts and still applies if it doesn't.

tptacek 16y ago

It may be harder than you expect to establish that you're not in a business related to your former employer, at least to the extent that you can quickly end a legal action; all I'm saying is, that legal safeguard may not be as helpful as you'd hope.

rst 16y ago
Particularly if the employer is someone like Microsoft or Google that does, well... a little of everything. As I said, it's definitely worth consulting a lawyer before taking anything for granted.
Natsu 16y ago
You're absolutely right. There are really two questions here: * Does my employer own this? * Will they make me prove that in court? The damnable thing is that, even if you really do own your work, having to prove that you own it in court may kill your startup by making you run out of money.
- aaronblohowiak 16y ago
  The other way of looking at your latter point: I try to work for people who would brag about successful former employees. Enlightened managers cultivate an "alumni network."
  - Natsu 16y ago
    The world needs more managers like that.
kjhghjkjh 16y ago
Remember that you aren't trying to convince a bunch of HN readers - you are trying to convince a judge (who thinks computers are magic boxes) If your day job is Oracle DBA and your startup is iPhone apps or web design that still equals the same "computer stuff" to a judge.
- bigiain 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure Oracle is a good example of a company that makes you agree that they own everything you think of while employed by them. A friend of mine became an Oracle employee when the company he worked for got acquired, and ended up needing to get approval from a long way up the org chart to be able to continue doing his phd, since the university had existing claims on ip in his phd research. For quite a long time he described himself as " technically not being allowed to think anything..."
  - kjhghjkjh 16y ago
    It's not oracle specificaly it's that if you are say a structural ironworker during the day and make bronze sculptures as a hobby then a judge will understand they are different. But they might not understand that being a sysadmin is as different to being a web designer in the evening.
    - bigiain 16y ago
      Sorry, I should have been more clear. As I understand it, Oracle's standard employment agreement includes language saying you agree that Oracle owns every idea you have while employed by them, whether on "paid hours" or not, whether related to databases or software in general or not - if you're a database engineer for Oracle and you invent a better tap washer, Oracle seem to think they'll own your plumbing related invention. There's workarounds for at least limited exceptions to that standard rule, but it's apparently unusual and required signoff at many levels above the typical workers management.

cdibona 16y ago

Be sure to read subsections 1 & 2, they're really really important.

alok-g 16y ago

Careful. This applies only to "inventions." Do not generalize this to "work." Copyrightable works are not included, and so software isn't. Reason for edit: Fixed typos.

joe_the_user 16y ago

Yes, But the point is that most large companies will, on general principle, have you sign a piece of paper giving them everything they can imagine getting from you. Then it's up to you to figure out what existing laws says you can take back.