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I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need to be the primary caregiver, she said she'd never even thought of the alternative! (Anne-Marie Slaughter touched on this in a 2012 Atlantic article called "Why Women Still Can't Have It All" for anyone who's interested.)

naasking 7y ago
A woman would still need almost a year of special work consideration for the pregnancy, appointments, and post-birth recovery, even if they're not a primary care giver afterwards.
- tylermenezes 7y ago
  That's a really small part of the problem. The article actually cites data from Italy, which already requires 5 months of maternity leave.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    That's per child. It's really not a small part of the problem.
hyperdunc 7y ago
Women are more likely to want to be the primary caregiver to something that actually came out of them. It's biological and there's nothing sexist about it.
- tylermenezes 7y ago
  > it's biological "It's biology" has a long history of being used to justify everything from sexism to racism to genocide. Please provide a source for your claim (and for the implied claim that men do not have the same drive).
  - deyouz 7y ago
    And of course you were downvoted, while the one claiming "biology!" based on no arguments wasn't.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
    The source is looking at nature and all the species? But that doesn't mean we, the smartest of them all, can't make some changes. Nature is also killing the weaker etc, things that we don't agree on as humans.
- maxkwallace 7y ago
  It's partly biological but there are still many existing cultural attitudes that discourage husbands from performining traditionally "feminine" roles/tasks when caring for their kids. The author's point about being over-critical of sexism is well-taken, but by reducing the sexist attitudes towards, for example, stay-at-home dads, it may be possible to help more women in STEM have fully productive careers.
- the_gipsy 7y ago
  It is sexist because you are dismissing women being treated as lesser beings with some armchair analysis.
  - jbay808 7y ago
    I disagree with the poster you are replying to, but I also disagree with what seem to be the implications of you comment -- that someone who prefers performing childcare over STEM work is a "lesser being"?
    - the_gipsy 7y ago
      No no, lesser being as in "we decide your duties and remobe your opportunities".
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tomp 7y ago
The flip side of the coin is that women overwhelmingly prefer higher-paid, more successful, higher-status, equally-or-more-educated men as partners. Then the choice of who should stay at home is pretty obvious (or no choice but necessity brought to you by brutal economic reality).
wvenable 7y ago
It's becoming more acceptable that whomever is the lower-income partner is the one who is the primary caregiver of children (man or woman). From what I can see, working in STEM academia definitely means you are likely to be the lower-income partner.
- blub 7y ago
  Where is it becoming more acceptable? In Germany I read an article about a stay at home dad and their life sounded quite miserable. They couldn't even hang around with other mothers because their husbands became suspicious.
chadcmulligan 7y ago
I became the primary care giver for my daughter for a number of years (My wife died - some years ago). My experience is that there is no flexibility in IT jobs - if you want to work not 9-5 5 days a week then tough luck, when you have a kid to look after, pick up from after school etc this just isn't possible. I envied doctors at the time, they could just name their hours, some other professions can - but not STEM fields for some reason. I'd say the reason is sexism - its a bunch of guys who are married to women who look after the children, so flexibility is not built in to the system.
- sethammons 7y ago
  That does not sounds like IT jobs, it sounds like most jobs. In every sector, I'm sure you can find employers who are more flexible than others. I work at a software company and there are single parents leaving early or coming in late or both due to raising their kids. Consider finding a better employer.
  - chadcmulligan 7y ago
    Yes, I used to say that before I experienced it - but the system is built around workers that will work long continuous hours - you have to beg for the exception, and you take a pay hit - forget any thoughts of promotion - the glass ceiling women complain about. The attitude is oh yes we're being generous by letting you leave early - it shouldn't be that way, work should be planned around life.
    - sethammons 7y ago
      While the plural of anecdote is not data, my director of engineering started as an individual contributor on my team. As a single mom, she has been promoted multiple times. She works two days from home and leaves early to beat traffic so she can do kid stuff. She is also very good at each role she has had.
      - chadcmulligan 7y ago
uncle_j 7y ago
It is almost never mentioned but most men won't respect other men who are stay at home parent. So there is also an expectation on the man to be the bread winner. Also many women tend not to want men who earn less then them: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-women-like-rich-men-and-rich-men-like-slender-women-2015-09-28 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-women-like-rich-men-a...
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  >> It is almost never mentioned but most men won't respect other men who are stay at home parent. So there is also an expectation on the man to be the bread winner. That too, is sexism, of course. Sexism also harms men.
  - uncle_j 7y ago
    I don't agree it is sexism. It is the simple fact that our species is sexually dimorphic. This guarantees that there will be asymmetry between the genders regardless of the social engineering that is attempted. There is about 4 billion years of evolution and the thinking that it can be socially engineered away is a folly. > Sexism also harms men. Yes it does. But this is not one of those circumstances. However that is a completely different conversation.
    - wilg 7y ago
      Bad take! There's no distinction between "biology" and "social engineering". Our biology underpins us having these discussions. Our biology underpins our society. Our biology underpins our thinking that things can be better. Our biology encourages us to improve our own quality of life and that of others in ever larger social groups. Everything we do is true to our biology.
      - uncle_j 7y ago
        There is an obvious distinction between people trying to socially arrange society and our biology. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.
Tade0 7y ago
I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. They're definitely the only ones who can breastfeed(at any practical rate anyway). One may, of course, elect not to do that, but it does make a difference for the child.
- adjkant 7y ago
  Why is 6 months of time dictating the entirety of childcare?
  - blub 7y ago
    It's not six months, it's 9 months of pregnancy + ideally another year to recuperate, bond with the child and care for them. Children don't magically become independent when they turn 1 either, they need a lot of investment from both parents in order to develop harmoniously. Starting at this point one could wonder if fathers couldn't spend the same amount of effort as mothers. Technically they could, but by that point they probably aren't very good at some kinds of care and bonding, nor is the baby used to them in that way, unless they already did it during the first year. It's also not something that is appreciated by others, except maybe the mother, if she can get over their clumsiness and has the patience to teach them what to do. All in all, there's no benefit for the family if the fathers instead of the mothers work part time or stay at hole.
    - adjkant 7y ago
      You can work during a good deal of those nine months on pregnancy with only minor adjustments towards the second trimester. > they need a lot of investment from both parents in order to develop harmoniously Completely agreed, I said nothing against this except that the assumption that the mother had to be the one to stay home was odd. > Technically they could, but by that point they probably aren't very good at some kinds of care and bonding No citation here, this really just seems like repackaging assumptions as fact. > It's also not something that is appreciated by others, except maybe the mother, if she can get over their clumsiness and has the patience to teach them what to do. All in all, there's no benefit for the family if the fathers instead of the mothers work part time or stay at hole. I am positive many fathers and close family would beg to differ.
alexchamberlain 7y ago
I’d just like to echo some of the other comments; my wife is currently pregnant and it’s already clear that the burden is largely with her. I simply cannot get the vaccines and blood tests she needs, my hormones aren’t loosening all of my joints and I’m not exhausted most of the time. The challenge isn’t just who is going to look after them once they’re born.
gherkinnn 7y ago
Your point (and there is truth to it) might work in industry, but in academia there is an expectation (as is mentioned in the OP) that you move around a lot. Even if the husband takes care of the child, doing your masters in LA, your PhD in London, and a postdoc in Sidney, why on earth would anyone want to drag a child along with them?
sgentle 7y ago
> I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. Well, certainly nature is sexist in that only one of the sexes is able to gestate a child. Perhaps that will change someday. However, for now, (biological) women face a unique reproductive burden that is worth recognising and compensating for. Biology aside, there is an important difference between assuming women must bear a disproportionate responsibility for childcare, and recognising that women do bear a disproportionate responsibility for childcare. The former is sexism, the latter is pragmatism. Saying "my house is on fire" doesn't make you pro-fire. > That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. I'm not sure how that can be true. What you're describing, the assumption that men work and women stay home, is the foundational stereotype that sparked second-wave feminism. Unless the argument is that "diversity-in-STEM folks" aren't familiar with basic feminist ideas like gender roles? In any event, here is some evidence that this is, in fact, something that people are really thinking about: > The boundaries of the gender division of labour between productive and reproductive roles are gradually being crossed as women have started to enter formerly male-dominated areas of work and men have started to accept greater responsibility for domestic tasks, including child care. However, changes in women’s roles have been greater and much more rapid than changes in men’s roles. — Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action – Fourth World Conference on Women (1995) https://www.un.org/en/events/pastevents/pdfs/Beijing_Declaration_and_Platform_for_Action.pdf https://www.un.org/en/events/pastevents/pdfs/Beijing_Declara... > Take measures to increase the participation of men in caregiving both within households and in care professions, such as information and awareness campaigns, education and training, school curriculum, peer programmes and government policies to promote men’s participation and responsibilities as fathers and caregivers, and to encourage men and boys to become agents of change in promoting the human rights of women and in challenging gender stereotypes, in particular as they relate to men’s roles in parenting and infant development — Agreed Conclusions of the 53rd Commission on the Status of Women (2009) https://www.unwomen.org/-/media/headquarters/attachments/sections/csw/53/csw53_e_final.pdf https://www.unwomen.org/-/media/headquarters/attachments/sec... > Labour market policies that offer men access to paternity and parental leave, especially when coupled with Scandinavian-style incentives which encourage men to actually take leave, are a critical signal that men have responsibility for their children. However, gender norms are strong and pervasive. [...] Through community-based organisations and educational sessions supported by social protection programmes, health clinics and schools, fathers should be actively integrated into childcare activities and helped to see themselves as central to their children’s development. — Women's Work: Mothers, children, and the global childcare crisis – Overseas Development Institute (2016) https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/10333.pdf https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/public... > The time-use and labour force data presented in this chapter make a compelling case for inequalities in unpaid care work and inequalities in the labour force being deeply interrelated. This not only confirms the “unpaid care work–paid care work” connection discussed in Chapter 1, but demonstrates also that no substantive progress can be made in achieving all dimensions of gender equality in the labour force before inequalities in unpaid work are tackled through their effective recognition, reduction and redistribution between women and men, as well as between families and the State. — Care Work and Care Jobs – International Labour Organization (2018) https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_633135.pdf https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dco... > Rather than focusing only on increasing women’s workforce participation, it is also important to increase men’s participation in caring responsibilities. In countries where family policies incentivise men to take caring roles, the impact is seen both in the rate of men accessing leave and in societal attitudes towards parenting. — Women in STEM Decadal Plan – Australian Academy of Science (2019) https://www.science.org.au/files/userfiles/support/reports-and-plans/2019/gender-diversity-stem/women-in-STEM-decadal-plan-final.pdf https://www.science.org.au/files/userfiles/support/reports-a...

naasking 7y ago

A woman would still need almost a year of special work consideration for the pregnancy, appointments, and post-birth recovery, even if they're not a primary care giver afterwards.

tylermenezes 7y ago
That's a really small part of the problem. The article actually cites data from Italy, which already requires 5 months of maternity leave.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  That's per child. It's really not a small part of the problem.

hyperdunc 7y ago

Women are more likely to want to be the primary caregiver to something that actually came out of them. It's biological and there's nothing sexist about it.

tylermenezes 7y ago
> it's biological "It's biology" has a long history of being used to justify everything from sexism to racism to genocide. Please provide a source for your claim (and for the implied claim that men do not have the same drive).
- deyouz 7y ago
  And of course you were downvoted, while the one claiming "biology!" based on no arguments wasn't.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  The source is looking at nature and all the species? But that doesn't mean we, the smartest of them all, can't make some changes. Nature is also killing the weaker etc, things that we don't agree on as humans.
maxkwallace 7y ago
It's partly biological but there are still many existing cultural attitudes that discourage husbands from performining traditionally "feminine" roles/tasks when caring for their kids. The author's point about being over-critical of sexism is well-taken, but by reducing the sexist attitudes towards, for example, stay-at-home dads, it may be possible to help more women in STEM have fully productive careers.
the_gipsy 7y ago
It is sexist because you are dismissing women being treated as lesser beings with some armchair analysis.
- jbay808 7y ago
  I disagree with the poster you are replying to, but I also disagree with what seem to be the implications of you comment -- that someone who prefers performing childcare over STEM work is a "lesser being"?
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    No no, lesser being as in "we decide your duties and remobe your opportunities".

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tomp 7y ago

The flip side of the coin is that women overwhelmingly prefer higher-paid, more successful, higher-status, equally-or-more-educated men as partners. Then the choice of who should stay at home is pretty obvious (or no choice but necessity brought to you by brutal economic reality).

wvenable 7y ago

It's becoming more acceptable that whomever is the lower-income partner is the one who is the primary caregiver of children (man or woman). From what I can see, working in STEM academia definitely means you are likely to be the lower-income partner.

blub 7y ago
Where is it becoming more acceptable? In Germany I read an article about a stay at home dad and their life sounded quite miserable. They couldn't even hang around with other mothers because their husbands became suspicious.

chadcmulligan 7y ago

I became the primary care giver for my daughter for a number of years (My wife died - some years ago). My experience is that there is no flexibility in IT jobs - if you want to work not 9-5 5 days a week then tough luck, when you have a kid to look after, pick up from after school etc this just isn't possible. I envied doctors at the time, they could just name their hours, some other professions can - but not STEM fields for some reason. I'd say the reason is sexism - its a bunch of guys who are married to women who look after the children, so flexibility is not built in to the system.

sethammons 7y ago
That does not sounds like IT jobs, it sounds like most jobs. In every sector, I'm sure you can find employers who are more flexible than others. I work at a software company and there are single parents leaving early or coming in late or both due to raising their kids. Consider finding a better employer.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  Yes, I used to say that before I experienced it - but the system is built around workers that will work long continuous hours - you have to beg for the exception, and you take a pay hit - forget any thoughts of promotion - the glass ceiling women complain about. The attitude is oh yes we're being generous by letting you leave early - it shouldn't be that way, work should be planned around life.
  - sethammons 7y ago
    While the plural of anecdote is not data, my director of engineering started as an individual contributor on my team. As a single mom, she has been promoted multiple times. She works two days from home and leaves early to beat traffic so she can do kid stuff. She is also very good at each role she has had.
    - chadcmulligan 7y ago

uncle_j 7y ago

It is almost never mentioned but most men won't respect other men who are stay at home parent. So there is also an expectation on the man to be the bread winner. Also many women tend not to want men who earn less then them: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-women-like-rich-men-and-rich-men-like-slender-women-2015-09-28 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-women-like-rich-men-a...

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
>> It is almost never mentioned but most men won't respect other men who are stay at home parent. So there is also an expectation on the man to be the bread winner. That too, is sexism, of course. Sexism also harms men.
- uncle_j 7y ago
  I don't agree it is sexism. It is the simple fact that our species is sexually dimorphic. This guarantees that there will be asymmetry between the genders regardless of the social engineering that is attempted. There is about 4 billion years of evolution and the thinking that it can be socially engineered away is a folly. > Sexism also harms men. Yes it does. But this is not one of those circumstances. However that is a completely different conversation.
  - wilg 7y ago
    Bad take! There's no distinction between "biology" and "social engineering". Our biology underpins us having these discussions. Our biology underpins our society. Our biology underpins our thinking that things can be better. Our biology encourages us to improve our own quality of life and that of others in ever larger social groups. Everything we do is true to our biology.
    - uncle_j 7y ago
      There is an obvious distinction between people trying to socially arrange society and our biology. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.

Tade0 7y ago

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. They're definitely the only ones who can breastfeed(at any practical rate anyway). One may, of course, elect not to do that, but it does make a difference for the child.

adjkant 7y ago
Why is 6 months of time dictating the entirety of childcare?
- blub 7y ago
  It's not six months, it's 9 months of pregnancy + ideally another year to recuperate, bond with the child and care for them. Children don't magically become independent when they turn 1 either, they need a lot of investment from both parents in order to develop harmoniously. Starting at this point one could wonder if fathers couldn't spend the same amount of effort as mothers. Technically they could, but by that point they probably aren't very good at some kinds of care and bonding, nor is the baby used to them in that way, unless they already did it during the first year. It's also not something that is appreciated by others, except maybe the mother, if she can get over their clumsiness and has the patience to teach them what to do. All in all, there's no benefit for the family if the fathers instead of the mothers work part time or stay at hole.
  - adjkant 7y ago
    You can work during a good deal of those nine months on pregnancy with only minor adjustments towards the second trimester. > they need a lot of investment from both parents in order to develop harmoniously Completely agreed, I said nothing against this except that the assumption that the mother had to be the one to stay home was odd. > Technically they could, but by that point they probably aren't very good at some kinds of care and bonding No citation here, this really just seems like repackaging assumptions as fact. > It's also not something that is appreciated by others, except maybe the mother, if she can get over their clumsiness and has the patience to teach them what to do. All in all, there's no benefit for the family if the fathers instead of the mothers work part time or stay at hole. I am positive many fathers and close family would beg to differ.

alexchamberlain 7y ago

I’d just like to echo some of the other comments; my wife is currently pregnant and it’s already clear that the burden is largely with her. I simply cannot get the vaccines and blood tests she needs, my hormones aren’t loosening all of my joints and I’m not exhausted most of the time. The challenge isn’t just who is going to look after them once they’re born.

gherkinnn 7y ago

Your point (and there is truth to it) might work in industry, but in academia there is an expectation (as is mentioned in the OP) that you move around a lot. Even if the husband takes care of the child, doing your masters in LA, your PhD in London, and a postdoc in Sidney, why on earth would anyone want to drag a child along with them?

sgentle 7y ago

> I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. Well, certainly nature is sexist in that only one of the sexes is able to gestate a child. Perhaps that will change someday. However, for now, (biological) women face a unique reproductive burden that is worth recognising and compensating for. Biology aside, there is an important difference between assuming women must bear a disproportionate responsibility for childcare, and recognising that women do bear a disproportionate responsibility for childcare. The former is sexism, the latter is pragmatism. Saying "my house is on fire" doesn't make you pro-fire. > That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. I'm not sure how that can be true. What you're describing, the assumption that men work and women stay home, is the foundational stereotype that sparked second-wave feminism. Unless the argument is that "diversity-in-STEM folks" aren't familiar with basic feminist ideas like gender roles? In any event, here is some evidence that this is, in fact, something that people are really thinking about: > The boundaries of the gender division of labour between productive and reproductive roles are gradually being crossed as women have started to enter formerly male-dominated areas of work and men have started to accept greater responsibility for domestic tasks, including child care. However, changes in women’s roles have been greater and much more rapid than changes in men’s roles. — Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action – Fourth World Conference on Women (1995) https://www.un.org/en/events/pastevents/pdfs/Beijing_Declaration_and_Platform_for_Action.pdf https://www.un.org/en/events/pastevents/pdfs/Beijing_Declara... > Take measures to increase the participation of men in caregiving both within households and in care professions, such as information and awareness campaigns, education and training, school curriculum, peer programmes and government policies to promote men’s participation and responsibilities as fathers and caregivers, and to encourage men and boys to become agents of change in promoting the human rights of women and in challenging gender stereotypes, in particular as they relate to men’s roles in parenting and infant development — Agreed Conclusions of the 53rd Commission on the Status of Women (2009) https://www.unwomen.org/-/media/headquarters/attachments/sections/csw/53/csw53_e_final.pdf https://www.unwomen.org/-/media/headquarters/attachments/sec... > Labour market policies that offer men access to paternity and parental leave, especially when coupled with Scandinavian-style incentives which encourage men to actually take leave, are a critical signal that men have responsibility for their children. However, gender norms are strong and pervasive. [...] Through community-based organisations and educational sessions supported by social protection programmes, health clinics and schools, fathers should be actively integrated into childcare activities and helped to see themselves as central to their children’s development. — Women's Work: Mothers, children, and the global childcare crisis – Overseas Development Institute (2016) https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/10333.pdf https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/public... > The time-use and labour force data presented in this chapter make a compelling case for inequalities in unpaid care work and inequalities in the labour force being deeply interrelated. This not only confirms the “unpaid care work–paid care work” connection discussed in Chapter 1, but demonstrates also that no substantive progress can be made in achieving all dimensions of gender equality in the labour force before inequalities in unpaid work are tackled through their effective recognition, reduction and redistribution between women and men, as well as between families and the State. — Care Work and Care Jobs – International Labour Organization (2018) https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_633135.pdf https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dco... > Rather than focusing only on increasing women’s workforce participation, it is also important to increase men’s participation in caring responsibilities. In countries where family policies incentivise men to take caring roles, the impact is seen both in the rate of men accessing leave and in societal attitudes towards parenting. — Women in STEM Decadal Plan – Australian Academy of Science (2019) https://www.science.org.au/files/userfiles/support/reports-and-plans/2019/gender-diversity-stem/women-in-STEM-decadal-plan-final.pdf https://www.science.org.au/files/userfiles/support/reports-a...