5 ms·

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no rep

by proc0 7y ago

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no representation because I could make a greater impact! This whole ideology of having representation everywhere is very dumb and conformist.

Nouser76 7y ago
Because diverse opinions lead to better end products. Having homogenized groups of people means you're leaving some viewpoints out, and those viewpoints have sometimes been extremely helpful for me as a software developer.
- proc0 7y ago
  Sure, however this isn't false otherwise. Non-diverse opinions aren't bad by default, and ultimately the main concern here is thinking the opposite, that diverse opinions are always right.
  - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
    It's an error to assume any opinion is always right. Ultimately institutional sex discrimination is counter-productive to human life, so you will generally see a higher quality of life, lower violence, better health outcomes, reduced chemical toxicity, in places where both sexes have equal social mobility.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Maybe (although it's hard to imagine how somebody's non-education related upbringing could lead them to optimize software, for example), but at what cost? The linked article is suggesting that it's going to cost billions of dollars (more!) to bring in these diverse opinions.
- pnako 7y ago
  Yes I've observed that it's useful to have people like physicists or electrical engineers in a software development team, because they have a different perspective on things.
  - rixed 7y ago
    Below this is a comment that is now "dead" and cannot be replied to. To moderators/downvoters: It is said that defending a cause with bad arguments is the most pernicious way to combat it. Similarly, resorting to authority and censorship to defend a cause must be the surest way to ruin it. We have seen sexism actually grow in the last decades in this field, and i start to worry that this attitude of dealing with it with the argument of authority or other threats on one's carrier may just be one of the causes that we are slowly losing this ideological battle. Or maybe just a symptom?
jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
Because countries where women are dominated by men both legally and culturally, have higher rates of birth, crime, poverty, etc., than countries where women have a level of social mobility similar to men.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  Actually, no, it’s the other way around - in less egalitarian countries, women are more likely to pursue science and technical careers.
  - Proziam 7y ago
    I find it shocking that people so boldly cite the opposite as being true. I can't seem to discern a benefit to so confidently push a belief that doesn't hold up in reality. It's not as if the Nordic countries aren't doing pretty well, so why are people so resistant to the reality? It's perfectly understandable that less economic and social pressures lead to people choosing things they actually want. It just happens to be that there's a notable difference in women's choices under those circumstances. It certainly seems like there's substantial misinformation out there these days.
    - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
      For the women I know, working at a sausagefest like comp/sci or engineering can be really unpleasant, and I'm sure it sucks 10x for women who believe they have to work STEM in order to gain the autonomy they need. My sister lived two years in an all male house with two male landlords and she almost lost her damn mind: the landlords kept trying to set her up with her creepy neighbor, who himself was trading sexual favors with the landlords in order to get out of cleaning, which my sister did more than anybody. The landlords were always giving special treats and priveleges to "their boys", even the ones who didnt pay rent on time. Obviously, #notallmen, obviously. It is unsurprising to me that the biggest female STEM recruitment is happening in places where women have no other way to get the autonomy they need.
  - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
mcguire 7y ago
proc0 has a point: the more people you filter out for irrelevant reasons, the more is left for the mediocre who can pass the filters.
jariel 7y ago
'Equal opportunity' I think is a fairly non-controversial concept, much less so than 'equal outcomes'. To the extent there are factors which systematically work against opportunity, there's both a moral issue, and a pragmatic issue (i.e. losing good talent) at play, before we get into the more controversial issues of representation and equality of outcomes.
the_gipsy 7y ago
Because women have a right to the same opportunities as the other 50% of the population.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  Yes, but you don't see many, if any, complaints about under-represented saturation divers.
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    So what?
adjkant 7y ago
Birth control research would love to have a talk with you.

by proc0 7y ago

Nouser76 7y ago

Because diverse opinions lead to better end products. Having homogenized groups of people means you're leaving some viewpoints out, and those viewpoints have sometimes been extremely helpful for me as a software developer.

proc0 7y ago
Sure, however this isn't false otherwise. Non-diverse opinions aren't bad by default, and ultimately the main concern here is thinking the opposite, that diverse opinions are always right.
- jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
  It's an error to assume any opinion is always right. Ultimately institutional sex discrimination is counter-productive to human life, so you will generally see a higher quality of life, lower violence, better health outcomes, reduced chemical toxicity, in places where both sexes have equal social mobility.
commandlinefan 7y ago
Maybe (although it's hard to imagine how somebody's non-education related upbringing could lead them to optimize software, for example), but at what cost? The linked article is suggesting that it's going to cost billions of dollars (more!) to bring in these diverse opinions.
pnako 7y ago
Yes I've observed that it's useful to have people like physicists or electrical engineers in a software development team, because they have a different perspective on things.
- rixed 7y ago
  Below this is a comment that is now "dead" and cannot be replied to. To moderators/downvoters: It is said that defending a cause with bad arguments is the most pernicious way to combat it. Similarly, resorting to authority and censorship to defend a cause must be the surest way to ruin it. We have seen sexism actually grow in the last decades in this field, and i start to worry that this attitude of dealing with it with the argument of authority or other threats on one's carrier may just be one of the causes that we are slowly losing this ideological battle. Or maybe just a symptom?

jacobwilliamroy 7y ago

Because countries where women are dominated by men both legally and culturally, have higher rates of birth, crime, poverty, etc., than countries where women have a level of social mobility similar to men.

commandlinefan 7y ago
Actually, no, it’s the other way around - in less egalitarian countries, women are more likely to pursue science and technical careers.
- Proziam 7y ago
  I find it shocking that people so boldly cite the opposite as being true. I can't seem to discern a benefit to so confidently push a belief that doesn't hold up in reality. It's not as if the Nordic countries aren't doing pretty well, so why are people so resistant to the reality? It's perfectly understandable that less economic and social pressures lead to people choosing things they actually want. It just happens to be that there's a notable difference in women's choices under those circumstances. It certainly seems like there's substantial misinformation out there these days.
  - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
    For the women I know, working at a sausagefest like comp/sci or engineering can be really unpleasant, and I'm sure it sucks 10x for women who believe they have to work STEM in order to gain the autonomy they need. My sister lived two years in an all male house with two male landlords and she almost lost her damn mind: the landlords kept trying to set her up with her creepy neighbor, who himself was trading sexual favors with the landlords in order to get out of cleaning, which my sister did more than anybody. The landlords were always giving special treats and priveleges to "their boys", even the ones who didnt pay rent on time. Obviously, #notallmen, obviously. It is unsurprising to me that the biggest female STEM recruitment is happening in places where women have no other way to get the autonomy they need.
- jacobwilliamroy 7y ago

mcguire 7y ago

proc0 has a point: the more people you filter out for irrelevant reasons, the more is left for the mediocre who can pass the filters.

jariel 7y ago

'Equal opportunity' I think is a fairly non-controversial concept, much less so than 'equal outcomes'. To the extent there are factors which systematically work against opportunity, there's both a moral issue, and a pragmatic issue (i.e. losing good talent) at play, before we get into the more controversial issues of representation and equality of outcomes.

the_gipsy 7y ago

Because women have a right to the same opportunities as the other 50% of the population.

hanniabu 7y ago
Yes, but you don't see many, if any, complaints about under-represented saturation divers.
- the_gipsy 7y ago
  So what?

adjkant 7y ago

Birth control research would love to have a talk with you.