5 ms·

I expected to see something like this here. I had a period where I wasn't doing any class work but didn't have my degree and couldn't get a job because of that

by swiley 7y ago

I expected to see something like this here. I had a period where I wasn't doing any class work but didn't have my degree and couldn't get a job because of that. The ability to trade time and tires for some of the extra VC money was kind of awesome honestly and I'd imagine it gives people who are in worse situations options they really need (essentially borrowing against car components.) I know in a few years it will change when they try to become profitable but there will be another thing by then.

untog 7y ago
Both things can be true. The gig economy can provide people with the kind of flexible work that wasn't possible. It can also utterly fleece workers that would like to having full time jobs but cannot.
dsr_ 7y ago
The article points out that for many DoorDash workers, they aren't getting paid a positive sum, even if they count their time as worth zero. Look, we have the technical ability to handle millions of people as hourly workers on timescale granularities of seconds. Require these companies to treat their "contractors" as part-time employees being paid minimum wage: start paying them when they accept their first job on day, pay them for periods of up to ten minutes between jobs, and stop being reviled by everyone who hates slave labor.
- swiley 7y ago
  I'll agree you absolutely have to watch what you're doing and count miles and whatnot, but having the option is a powerful thing (even when you're making negative money) and I wonder if regulating it too aggressively might take that away.
  - dsr_ 7y ago
    I am 100% ok with using regulation to take away the ability to earn negative money.
    - ZainRiz 7y ago
      I have 0% trust in regulators ability to do this without doing more harm to workers than good
    - Reedx 7y ago
      Obviously. But are you going to do that so neatly it doesn't trigger unintended consequences? Which have the potential to make things worse. It's easy to say "let's do X to make Y better", but it's not that simple with any real world complex system. Look at bill AB5 for an example currently in progress and ostensibly about helping gig workers. Here's a sobering sample of second order effects: https://twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/1206705811042422785 https://twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/120670581104242278... https://twitter.com/delightedbite/status/1216834042881949697 https://twitter.com/delightedbite/status/1216834042881949697
  - pergadad 7y ago
    Imagine all the alternative ways this valuable human time could be used. Do you really think the majority of people feel empowered and freely do this, or is it rather that they are stuck in a negative loop and can't get out. Also to highlight that currently the government is subsidising these companies by paying food stamps and Medicaid (in the case of the US), and the workers are subsidising them by taking any and all economic and personal risk (injury, accident, car breakdown, long term health issues, etc.)
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      "Empowered" is a spectrum. Do I think the majority of gig economy drivers find their job empowering in some cosmic sense - no, probably not. But I'd certainly be much happier as a driver for Doordash than a sales clerk at Walmart, and the reasons are empowering things like "I don't have to spend 100% of my time around annoying customers" and "there's no manager who will come yell at me if I play around with my phone for a few minutes".
    - swiley 7y ago
      I agree human time is undervalued in the modern economy and it’s often waisted, but I think door dash because of its flexibility might actually be part of a change that results in it being more valued rather than less.
- treis 7y ago
  >The article points out that for many DoorDash workers, they aren't getting paid a positive sum, even if they count their time as worth zero. This just doesn't pass the smell test. It's much, much more likely that their method is flawed than it being the case that a bunch of workers pay DoorDash to work for them.
  - pergadad 7y ago
    Instead of posting your personal idea that this must be wrong because it seems extreme, you could read the very lucid and clear article giving exact numbers on how they calculated this and why they are confident in this calculation.
    - lacker 7y ago
      The article says they gathered their data from a non-random sample of 200 drivers. I think the “smell test” is more accurate. Or DoorDash’s own claims, that drivers make $18 an hour.
      - Phillipharryt 7y ago
        Their sampling is biased, but DoorDash muddies their own claims by saying that pay is per "active hour". It's possible they're not counting time that drivers still need to allocate towards their work, making it inaccurate. I imagine you at least have to spend time pulled over to look at and accept an order (or break the law) so even that time getting in and out of traffic is probably not counted in "active hours". Imagine working retail and your employer only counting your time actually spent at the till when they say you're paid $20 an hour. You could be doing a whole lot more work than that but they don't consider it in that calculation.
  - occamrazor 7y ago
    They use the IRS 0.58$/mile tax deductible to estimate the car related costs. This is probably on the high side, especially for a small car.
mkane848 7y ago
Taking a few delivery jobs while being relatively well off isn't the same as people picking this up as a 2nd or 3rd job and depending on it. I can't believe I have to point out that most of the people being affected negatively by this aren't by-and-large "wealthy" or "secure" people to begin with.
- sybarita 7y ago
  You'd be surprised how prevalent that attitude is, the people with good paying jobs doing it for "extra cash on the side" say they don't care about the pay rate or unionizing or anything and so the going rate for these little delivery contracts is super low. They advertise that you'll make well over minimum wage when in reality you'll hardly ever even meet min wage. They could easily guarantee a min wage, which should be no problem if the drivers are all really making so much money, but they obviously don't. People say "well the drivers shouldn't do it then, they should get different jobs. if it doesn't pay and they keep doing it they're stupid", and then go on to order food from the app and tip $0.50 bc "hey, I only spent $5, that's 10%!" Drivers are essentially depending on tips to live just like a waiter. They might take home $4/hr from the app. So every time you order you have the chance to make it right for the driver and pay them for doing their job by giving a decent cash tip. IMO $3 is the absolute minimum, $5 is normal. If your reaction to that is "whoa that's way too much what did they do to deserve that?" you're a cheap bastard. Sorry for the rant, I just did this job for a while and got treated like dog shit by the customers and the companies for efficiently and politely indulging their every whim on demand at any hour, and it makes me sick to hear people who aren't starving living in their cars depending on work like this to survive talking about it in abstract terms like they have any idea. We really should have a period of compulsory food service work for every teenager in this country, seriously.
kaonashi 7y ago
in the meantime, they've driven competitors out of business with predatory pricing, and are the only game in town
- swiley 7y ago
  This was not the case where I live, when door dash didn’t pay me what I wanted I’d deliver with Postmates instead and vice versa.

by swiley 7y ago

untog 7y ago

Both things can be true. The gig economy can provide people with the kind of flexible work that wasn't possible. It can also utterly fleece workers that would like to having full time jobs but cannot.

dsr_ 7y ago

The article points out that for many DoorDash workers, they aren't getting paid a positive sum, even if they count their time as worth zero. Look, we have the technical ability to handle millions of people as hourly workers on timescale granularities of seconds. Require these companies to treat their "contractors" as part-time employees being paid minimum wage: start paying them when they accept their first job on day, pay them for periods of up to ten minutes between jobs, and stop being reviled by everyone who hates slave labor.

swiley 7y ago
I'll agree you absolutely have to watch what you're doing and count miles and whatnot, but having the option is a powerful thing (even when you're making negative money) and I wonder if regulating it too aggressively might take that away.
- dsr_ 7y ago
  I am 100% ok with using regulation to take away the ability to earn negative money.
  - ZainRiz 7y ago
    I have 0% trust in regulators ability to do this without doing more harm to workers than good
  - Reedx 7y ago
    Obviously. But are you going to do that so neatly it doesn't trigger unintended consequences? Which have the potential to make things worse. It's easy to say "let's do X to make Y better", but it's not that simple with any real world complex system. Look at bill AB5 for an example currently in progress and ostensibly about helping gig workers. Here's a sobering sample of second order effects: https://twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/1206705811042422785 https://twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/120670581104242278... https://twitter.com/delightedbite/status/1216834042881949697 https://twitter.com/delightedbite/status/1216834042881949697
- pergadad 7y ago
  Imagine all the alternative ways this valuable human time could be used. Do you really think the majority of people feel empowered and freely do this, or is it rather that they are stuck in a negative loop and can't get out. Also to highlight that currently the government is subsidising these companies by paying food stamps and Medicaid (in the case of the US), and the workers are subsidising them by taking any and all economic and personal risk (injury, accident, car breakdown, long term health issues, etc.)
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    "Empowered" is a spectrum. Do I think the majority of gig economy drivers find their job empowering in some cosmic sense - no, probably not. But I'd certainly be much happier as a driver for Doordash than a sales clerk at Walmart, and the reasons are empowering things like "I don't have to spend 100% of my time around annoying customers" and "there's no manager who will come yell at me if I play around with my phone for a few minutes".
  - swiley 7y ago
    I agree human time is undervalued in the modern economy and it’s often waisted, but I think door dash because of its flexibility might actually be part of a change that results in it being more valued rather than less.
treis 7y ago
>The article points out that for many DoorDash workers, they aren't getting paid a positive sum, even if they count their time as worth zero. This just doesn't pass the smell test. It's much, much more likely that their method is flawed than it being the case that a bunch of workers pay DoorDash to work for them.
- pergadad 7y ago
  Instead of posting your personal idea that this must be wrong because it seems extreme, you could read the very lucid and clear article giving exact numbers on how they calculated this and why they are confident in this calculation.
  - lacker 7y ago
    The article says they gathered their data from a non-random sample of 200 drivers. I think the “smell test” is more accurate. Or DoorDash’s own claims, that drivers make $18 an hour.
    - Phillipharryt 7y ago
      Their sampling is biased, but DoorDash muddies their own claims by saying that pay is per "active hour". It's possible they're not counting time that drivers still need to allocate towards their work, making it inaccurate. I imagine you at least have to spend time pulled over to look at and accept an order (or break the law) so even that time getting in and out of traffic is probably not counted in "active hours". Imagine working retail and your employer only counting your time actually spent at the till when they say you're paid $20 an hour. You could be doing a whole lot more work than that but they don't consider it in that calculation.
- occamrazor 7y ago
  They use the IRS 0.58$/mile tax deductible to estimate the car related costs. This is probably on the high side, especially for a small car.

mkane848 7y ago

Taking a few delivery jobs while being relatively well off isn't the same as people picking this up as a 2nd or 3rd job and depending on it. I can't believe I have to point out that most of the people being affected negatively by this aren't by-and-large "wealthy" or "secure" people to begin with.

sybarita 7y ago
You'd be surprised how prevalent that attitude is, the people with good paying jobs doing it for "extra cash on the side" say they don't care about the pay rate or unionizing or anything and so the going rate for these little delivery contracts is super low. They advertise that you'll make well over minimum wage when in reality you'll hardly ever even meet min wage. They could easily guarantee a min wage, which should be no problem if the drivers are all really making so much money, but they obviously don't. People say "well the drivers shouldn't do it then, they should get different jobs. if it doesn't pay and they keep doing it they're stupid", and then go on to order food from the app and tip $0.50 bc "hey, I only spent $5, that's 10%!" Drivers are essentially depending on tips to live just like a waiter. They might take home $4/hr from the app. So every time you order you have the chance to make it right for the driver and pay them for doing their job by giving a decent cash tip. IMO $3 is the absolute minimum, $5 is normal. If your reaction to that is "whoa that's way too much what did they do to deserve that?" you're a cheap bastard. Sorry for the rant, I just did this job for a while and got treated like dog shit by the customers and the companies for efficiently and politely indulging their every whim on demand at any hour, and it makes me sick to hear people who aren't starving living in their cars depending on work like this to survive talking about it in abstract terms like they have any idea. We really should have a period of compulsory food service work for every teenager in this country, seriously.

kaonashi 7y ago

in the meantime, they've driven competitors out of business with predatory pricing, and are the only game in town

swiley 7y ago
This was not the case where I live, when door dash didn’t pay me what I wanted I’d deliver with Postmates instead and vice versa.