8 ms·

Is there any other country other than the US where paying service workers below minimum wage is legal or acceptable? I've been around a fair bit of Europe and s

by franga2000 7y ago

Is there any other country other than the US where paying service workers below minimum wage is legal or acceptable? I've been around a fair bit of Europe and surroundings and I've never encountered the US system.

wolco 7y ago
Canada, Africa and the Middle East.
- franga2000 7y ago
  Why do I keep expecting Canada to be better than it actually is? Although, a quick web search shows that at least in Quebec, minimum wage for tipped workers is 1.9$ lower vs. not applying at all in many US states - better, but still sad.
  - ganeshkrishnan 7y ago
    I moved from US to Australia and then Canada. Canada is almost the same as US with consumer rights, customer service, citizen rights etc which is that's it's almost non existent. Australia is one of the best countries imo. Minimum wage with penalty can be up to as high as $100 per hour ( yes $100) and starts around $25+
    - squiggleblaz 7y ago
      The minimum wage is $19.49 AUD which is significantly lower in USD. Many industries will have higher minimum wages, but it certainly doesn't start at $25.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    Yes, tipping culture is alive and well in Canada. A common misconception among foreigners is that the existence of universal healthcare means Canada also shares the economic structures of Scandinavian countries. It doesn't. Canada's economy is structured similarly to the US, but much more dependent on natural resources. The service sector is actually considered to be a low-cost offshoring center for American businesses, due to lower median salaries, and a weak Canadian dollar.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
fxtentacle 7y ago
There's also no other developed country that has drug problems like the US. If you stop treating people with respect, they need some way to cope. First painkillers, then the opioid crisis, now alcohol-related deaths are on the rise. And I recently read that the new hip thing are LSD nose spray trips timed to your lunch break.
- LocalH 7y ago
  LSD can't be "timed to your lunch break" as far as I know. Whether micro, threshold, or full-on trip, LSD usually has a duration of around 8-12 hours before you're back to baseline (and tolerance is long, usually two weeks before another similarly-dosed experience would have the same potency)
  - monocasa 7y ago
    Maybe the parent meant DMT? That's suspiciously smoke break length. Although if I were doing that if just have a vape of deems rather trying to find some weird nasal spray thing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- adamsea 7y ago
  While like any other substance LSD can be abused it doesn’t make sense to mention it in the same breath as the opioid crisis or alcoholism.
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    It does if you’re part of the moral panic that deems substances “evil” and thinks they should all be banned. You know, the same people who would rather kids die than have access to testing services because it might encourage some of them.
eru 7y ago
Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently. The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either, see eg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countries-at-odds-with-eu-over-minimum-wage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri... Neither does Switzerland. What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs? (My adopted home country, one of the richest places in the world and one of the best places to live, doesn't have a minimum wage either.)
- Angostura 7y ago
  > What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs? Because other countries haven't institutionalised the idea of poverty-line wages.
- pjc50 7y ago
  However, those countries generally have decent benefits and social housing, so people's net wages provide an adequate standard of living. And the wages are collectively negotiated by unions in a way that is now very rare in the anglosphere: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countries-at-odds-with-eu-over-minimum-wage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri...
- krageon 7y ago
  > The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either Their unions regulate wages, and in practice this means the same thing as a government-mandated minimum wage. It just so happens that their structure is a little different.
- jakobegger 7y ago
  > Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently We don't really have a minimum wage in Austria either, but wages are regulated per industry. So employers are still required to pay certain wages, even though we don't have a general minimum wage. And there's no such thing as including tips in the wage, tips are always extra. (There is one major loophole, of course, which is hiring people as contractors, but that requires convincing the authorities that your employees are not really employees)
hurricanetc 7y ago
Misconception. Service workers must be paid the higher of state, city, or federal minimum wage. If wages plus tips are not equal to or greater than the minimum wage then the minimum wage must be paid. If everyone suddenly stopped tipping then service workers would default to minimum wage. For anyone with a different experience your employer was breaking the law. But what I think you’ll find is that it is the service workers themselves who prefer working for tips.
- frobozz 7y ago
  > it is the service workers themselves who prefer working for tips. I'm sure they'd prefer a sensible wage + tips, over a sub-minimum wage supplemented by tips.
  - hurricanetc 7y ago
    I’m sure most people would prefer more money. But if service workers were paid “normal” wages people wouldn’t feel guilted into tipping. Minimum wage in NYC is $15/hour and $10/hour for food service workers. Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. But are the employees actually earning more? I doubt it.
    - consp 7y ago
      You are already naming the problem here: > Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. Service bad? -> complain to employer, employer punishes employee Service OK? -> employer pays employee for work done Service good? -> employer pays employee for work done and customer pays employee for good work (and employee shares it with all the other employees who are in the chain of service).
      - hurricanetc 7y ago
        See it’s the “service good” category that I don’t think will exist. Why would people tip when tipping is no longer socially mandated? Where people seem to disagree here is with the idea that service workers are better off with low wages + tipping than higher wages + no tipping.
tremon 7y ago
While not legally the same, the UK comes close with its minimum wage/living wage gap: society acknowledges that minimum wage is not enough to make a living (in some areas) so it expects workers to be paid the living wage instead. I don't think this is mandated by law though, so you could have situations where workers are paid below the socially expected "minimum" wage. At least they acknowledge the problem.
- esotericn 7y ago
  The living wage is kind of different, though. The difference might be 10-20% or so. It's not like the US situation where the 'minimum' of $2 or whatever it is would be absolutely unliveable.
- kennyadam 7y ago
  'We' also renamed the minimum wage to the National Living Wage because the tories.
maxerickson 7y ago
This is pedantic, but service workers in the US are generally payed the legal minimum wage. The distinction is that a different law exists for that category of workers, not that they aren't paid legal wages. Other countries do make exceptions to their pay rules. For instance, younger people that are likely to be working temporarily may be excluded from benefits rules.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  This is even more pedantic but no, service workers are not generally payed the legal minimum wage. Wage theft by employers is over $20 billion a year (more than all other kinds of theft combined) and wage theft happens predominantly to those being paid minimum wage. 17% of low wage earners are subject to wage theft -- 2.4 million people just in the 10 most populous states -- and the average amount of theft is $64 a week. Which doesn't sound like a lot but is 25% of their weekly wages.

wolco 7y ago

Canada, Africa and the Middle East.

franga2000 7y ago
Why do I keep expecting Canada to be better than it actually is? Although, a quick web search shows that at least in Quebec, minimum wage for tipped workers is 1.9$ lower vs. not applying at all in many US states - better, but still sad.
- ganeshkrishnan 7y ago
  I moved from US to Australia and then Canada. Canada is almost the same as US with consumer rights, customer service, citizen rights etc which is that's it's almost non existent. Australia is one of the best countries imo. Minimum wage with penalty can be up to as high as $100 per hour ( yes $100) and starts around $25+
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    The minimum wage is $19.49 AUD which is significantly lower in USD. Many industries will have higher minimum wages, but it certainly doesn't start at $25.
- rchaud 7y ago
  Yes, tipping culture is alive and well in Canada. A common misconception among foreigners is that the existence of universal healthcare means Canada also shares the economic structures of Scandinavian countries. It doesn't. Canada's economy is structured similarly to the US, but much more dependent on natural resources. The service sector is actually considered to be a low-cost offshoring center for American businesses, due to lower median salaries, and a weak Canadian dollar.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

fxtentacle 7y ago

There's also no other developed country that has drug problems like the US. If you stop treating people with respect, they need some way to cope. First painkillers, then the opioid crisis, now alcohol-related deaths are on the rise. And I recently read that the new hip thing are LSD nose spray trips timed to your lunch break.

LocalH 7y ago
LSD can't be "timed to your lunch break" as far as I know. Whether micro, threshold, or full-on trip, LSD usually has a duration of around 8-12 hours before you're back to baseline (and tolerance is long, usually two weeks before another similarly-dosed experience would have the same potency)
- monocasa 7y ago
  Maybe the parent meant DMT? That's suspiciously smoke break length. Although if I were doing that if just have a vape of deems rather trying to find some weird nasal spray thing.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
adamsea 7y ago
While like any other substance LSD can be abused it doesn’t make sense to mention it in the same breath as the opioid crisis or alcoholism.
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  It does if you’re part of the moral panic that deems substances “evil” and thinks they should all be banned. You know, the same people who would rather kids die than have access to testing services because it might encourage some of them.

eru 7y ago

Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently. The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either, see eg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countries-at-odds-with-eu-over-minimum-wage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri... Neither does Switzerland. What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs? (My adopted home country, one of the richest places in the world and one of the best places to live, doesn't have a minimum wage either.)

Angostura 7y ago
> What's with the American obsession with outlawing poor people's jobs? Because other countries haven't institutionalised the idea of poverty-line wages.
pjc50 7y ago
However, those countries generally have decent benefits and social housing, so people's net wages provide an adequate standard of living. And the wages are collectively negotiated by unions in a way that is now very rare in the anglosphere: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countries-at-odds-with-eu-over-minimum-wage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/nordic-countri...
krageon 7y ago
> The Scandinavian countries don't have a minimum wage either Their unions regulate wages, and in practice this means the same thing as a government-mandated minimum wage. It just so happens that their structure is a little different.
jakobegger 7y ago
> Germany didn't even have a minimum wage until fairly recently We don't really have a minimum wage in Austria either, but wages are regulated per industry. So employers are still required to pay certain wages, even though we don't have a general minimum wage. And there's no such thing as including tips in the wage, tips are always extra. (There is one major loophole, of course, which is hiring people as contractors, but that requires convincing the authorities that your employees are not really employees)

hurricanetc 7y ago

Misconception. Service workers must be paid the higher of state, city, or federal minimum wage. If wages plus tips are not equal to or greater than the minimum wage then the minimum wage must be paid. If everyone suddenly stopped tipping then service workers would default to minimum wage. For anyone with a different experience your employer was breaking the law. But what I think you’ll find is that it is the service workers themselves who prefer working for tips.

frobozz 7y ago
> it is the service workers themselves who prefer working for tips. I'm sure they'd prefer a sensible wage + tips, over a sub-minimum wage supplemented by tips.
- hurricanetc 7y ago
  I’m sure most people would prefer more money. But if service workers were paid “normal” wages people wouldn’t feel guilted into tipping. Minimum wage in NYC is $15/hour and $10/hour for food service workers. Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. But are the employees actually earning more? I doubt it.
  - consp 7y ago
    You are already naming the problem here: > Some restaurants have started paying their servers more and not allowing tips. Service bad? -> complain to employer, employer punishes employee Service OK? -> employer pays employee for work done Service good? -> employer pays employee for work done and customer pays employee for good work (and employee shares it with all the other employees who are in the chain of service).
    - hurricanetc 7y ago
      See it’s the “service good” category that I don’t think will exist. Why would people tip when tipping is no longer socially mandated? Where people seem to disagree here is with the idea that service workers are better off with low wages + tipping than higher wages + no tipping.

tremon 7y ago

While not legally the same, the UK comes close with its minimum wage/living wage gap: society acknowledges that minimum wage is not enough to make a living (in some areas) so it expects workers to be paid the living wage instead. I don't think this is mandated by law though, so you could have situations where workers are paid below the socially expected "minimum" wage. At least they acknowledge the problem.

esotericn 7y ago
The living wage is kind of different, though. The difference might be 10-20% or so. It's not like the US situation where the 'minimum' of $2 or whatever it is would be absolutely unliveable.
kennyadam 7y ago
'We' also renamed the minimum wage to the National Living Wage because the tories.

maxerickson 7y ago

This is pedantic, but service workers in the US are generally payed the legal minimum wage. The distinction is that a different law exists for that category of workers, not that they aren't paid legal wages. Other countries do make exceptions to their pay rules. For instance, younger people that are likely to be working temporarily may be excluded from benefits rules.

freddie_mercury 7y ago
This is even more pedantic but no, service workers are not generally payed the legal minimum wage. Wage theft by employers is over $20 billion a year (more than all other kinds of theft combined) and wage theft happens predominantly to those being paid minimum wage. 17% of low wage earners are subject to wage theft -- 2.4 million people just in the 10 most populous states -- and the average amount of theft is $64 a week. Which doesn't sound like a lot but is 25% of their weekly wages.