4 ms·

A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.

by vxNsr 7y ago

blackrock 7y ago
Criminal prosecutors (District Attorneys) in the United States have a near 100% conviction rate. This is because they selectively choose the cases they want to prosecute. By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system? So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.
- fla 7y ago
  The big difference AFAIK is that in USA, most of the cases end up with a deal between parties. In Japan the notion of deal doesn't exist.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    It could be that Japan is lenient and does not prosecute cases which are not cut and dry. I don't know. Anyway I don't know how much you are helping the USA here in your argument. A deal in the US is often like: "Look, kid. With this deal, you get 1 year in prison. If we choose to prosecute, you are looking at 30 years to life. Your call. Remember, you have a [kid|mother|girlfriend]." Who would risk going up in court, even if you maybe didn't even do very much? It's basic economics. The risk is too great that jury is going to hate you, no matter what you did or didn't do. Better take the bargain and cut your losses.
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      The plea bargain for criminal cases (especially for people with reduced access to defense attorneys) is certainly problematic. Settlements, for civil cases, not so much, and I think it's an overall positive.
  - _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
    Where the deal is, we don't put you to jail for 50+ years, you agree to be guilty and go for 10 years. With the prospect of ending your life in prision, everyone does a deal.
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  It’s common to read criticisms of the justice system in that regard. If the DA is able to construe a set of charges carrying a maximum multi-year or even multi-decade custodial sentence, and when the option of not even being able to be considered for parole can be added as a condition of your sentence — no matter what kind of prison behavior you show, or how you respond as a prisoner to rehabilitation or reconciliation programs — then the plea bargaining process itself begins to seem a lot like an extrajudicial and unconstitutional trial of the kind one is surprised a moral society would endorse.
alexis_fr 7y ago
I don’t believe the justice of France or USA is any better. Ghosn seems to be discovering how swift the justice is, like in any country. USA has 95% convictions based on plea deals, so the investigation is only complete enough to convince the accused that he is isolated enough in his jail that he won’t be able to build a defense, but the accusation is never formally proved, it’s just the accused who agrees to admit crimes. Examples vary, for example pharmacists who are legally authorized to sell legal cannabis have been convicted because they couldn’t bring proof. In France we have jihadists who get freed, rapists who get away with it because they are recently immigrated and « don’t have the western codes » (true quote from the judge), people who get French nationality after having assaulted a policeman; We also have people in jail for way lighter offenses, but who are public cases with lots of media pressure. Although I’m all for a severe justice system, and process-based justice, I’m not convinced half of the convicts are there with a proven proof from the accusation ; rather, they couldn’t defend themselves.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  It's not swift in France (very slow, actually), and it's not swift either in Japan, apparently. One issue Ghosn mentioned is that his trial(s) was being delayed possibly until next year and beyond with his Japanese lawyer telling him that the whole thing could last up to 5 years. Now, remember that the Japanese judiciary initially wanted to keep him in jail until his trial(s) and that the conditions of his bail were practically 'house arrest' with very limited contacts with his family and the world. If I were 65 years old (as he is) and risked potentially having to stay years in jail/house arrest without trial in a foreign country and then risked up to 10 years in jail after that in a country that has a 99.6% conviction rate I would do whatever I could to get the f# out of there (whether I was guilty or innocent). He had the means to do it and he did it. On a human level I cannot blame him.
- ryanlol 7y ago
  > Although I’m all for a severe justice system Do you have any evidence to support that this is actually a good idea? Or is it just revenge porn you’re after?
tjpnz 7y ago
The Japanese criminal justice system doesn't win 100% of the cases it prosecutes. It should also be said that only a relative few even get to that point.
- josu 7y ago
  Canada: 97% US: 85% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate

A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.

by vxNsr 7y ago

A criminal justice system that wins 100% of the cases it prosecutes makes a mockery of the system. Same way a dictator who wins 100% of the vote.

blackrock 7y ago

Criminal prosecutors (District Attorneys) in the United States have a near 100% conviction rate. This is because they selectively choose the cases they want to prosecute. By your logic, are you also saying the United States makes a mockery of the criminal justice system? So if you get convicted of a crime in the US, then you’d better pray to God that it isn’t handled by the DA.

fla 7y ago
The big difference AFAIK is that in USA, most of the cases end up with a deal between parties. In Japan the notion of deal doesn't exist.
- jacobush 7y ago
  It could be that Japan is lenient and does not prosecute cases which are not cut and dry. I don't know. Anyway I don't know how much you are helping the USA here in your argument. A deal in the US is often like: "Look, kid. With this deal, you get 1 year in prison. If we choose to prosecute, you are looking at 30 years to life. Your call. Remember, you have a [kid|mother|girlfriend]." Who would risk going up in court, even if you maybe didn't even do very much? It's basic economics. The risk is too great that jury is going to hate you, no matter what you did or didn't do. Better take the bargain and cut your losses.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    The plea bargain for criminal cases (especially for people with reduced access to defense attorneys) is certainly problematic. Settlements, for civil cases, not so much, and I think it's an overall positive.
- _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
  Where the deal is, we don't put you to jail for 50+ years, you agree to be guilty and go for 10 years. With the prospect of ending your life in prision, everyone does a deal.
gorgoiler 7y ago
It’s common to read criticisms of the justice system in that regard. If the DA is able to construe a set of charges carrying a maximum multi-year or even multi-decade custodial sentence, and when the option of not even being able to be considered for parole can be added as a condition of your sentence — no matter what kind of prison behavior you show, or how you respond as a prisoner to rehabilitation or reconciliation programs — then the plea bargaining process itself begins to seem a lot like an extrajudicial and unconstitutional trial of the kind one is surprised a moral society would endorse.

alexis_fr 7y ago

I don’t believe the justice of France or USA is any better. Ghosn seems to be discovering how swift the justice is, like in any country. USA has 95% convictions based on plea deals, so the investigation is only complete enough to convince the accused that he is isolated enough in his jail that he won’t be able to build a defense, but the accusation is never formally proved, it’s just the accused who agrees to admit crimes. Examples vary, for example pharmacists who are legally authorized to sell legal cannabis have been convicted because they couldn’t bring proof. In France we have jihadists who get freed, rapists who get away with it because they are recently immigrated and « don’t have the western codes » (true quote from the judge), people who get French nationality after having assaulted a policeman; We also have people in jail for way lighter offenses, but who are public cases with lots of media pressure. Although I’m all for a severe justice system, and process-based justice, I’m not convinced half of the convicts are there with a proven proof from the accusation ; rather, they couldn’t defend themselves.

mytailorisrich 7y ago
It's not swift in France (very slow, actually), and it's not swift either in Japan, apparently. One issue Ghosn mentioned is that his trial(s) was being delayed possibly until next year and beyond with his Japanese lawyer telling him that the whole thing could last up to 5 years. Now, remember that the Japanese judiciary initially wanted to keep him in jail until his trial(s) and that the conditions of his bail were practically 'house arrest' with very limited contacts with his family and the world. If I were 65 years old (as he is) and risked potentially having to stay years in jail/house arrest without trial in a foreign country and then risked up to 10 years in jail after that in a country that has a 99.6% conviction rate I would do whatever I could to get the f# out of there (whether I was guilty or innocent). He had the means to do it and he did it. On a human level I cannot blame him.
ryanlol 7y ago
> Although I’m all for a severe justice system Do you have any evidence to support that this is actually a good idea? Or is it just revenge porn you’re after?

tjpnz 7y ago

The Japanese criminal justice system doesn't win 100% of the cases it prosecutes. It should also be said that only a relative few even get to that point.

josu 7y ago
Canada: 97% US: 85% https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate