7 ms·

Having Apple take a 30% cut of sales in exchange for not having to run an e-commerce operation is far less odious than having to pay $5,000 for a MacBook Pro wh

by mikece 7y ago

Having Apple take a 30% cut of sales in exchange for not having to run an e-commerce operation is far less odious than having to pay $5,000 for a MacBook Pro which has less RAM, a smaller SSD, and less powerful processor than $2,500 worth of Dell, Lenovo, HP, or Acer gear. The hardware is the real rip-off to me. I would gladly pay a reasonable fee if I could write my apps in VS Code on Debian and then ship the code to an Apple service to compile the code.

rimliu 7y ago
There is a more to laptop than just raw numbers of RAM, SSD and CPU. Paying six-digits for the car that has same number of wheels as Tata — outrageous.
- mikece 7y ago
  The inability to augment the MacBook Pro is a bigger pain. With my 3 year old Lenovo P50 I can swap BOTH NVMe slots, upgrade the RAM, etc. With the MacBook Pro I can only buy USB-C cables and adapters. Your point about six-figure cars is a good one. I can either spend $90k to $120k on a car to drive to work that's super quiet on the inside, or spend $12k on a used Accord and another $400 on the top-flight Bose noise-cancelling headphones and achieve the same level of quiet on my commute. The way Apple builds their hardware you can't modify it to improve how it works for you; the only option is to take it or leave it.
  - danaris 7y ago
    You can use the same Bose headphones with your MacBook, y'know, and they aren't any more a modification of the MacBook than they are of the Accord. You can also plug in external Thunderbolt SSDs that are effectively indistinguishable from an internal in terms of speed. Your analogy kinda falls apart there. But if upgradeability and replaceable parts are your #1 concern, then...yeah, you're not in the target market for a Mac laptop. So that means that it's unlikely you'd ever have been looking at having a Mac be your primary machine in the first place—if you needed one to do development on, it would be a secondary machine, where you'd probably set up your dev environment, check out the code, compile it, and test it, then go back to the computer you actually enjoy using for the rest. Maybe look into a Mac Mini?
    - jtuente 7y ago
      You can use the same (oil) with your (Bugatti), y'know, and they aren't any more a modification of the (Bugatti) than they are of the Accord. You can also (put on racing tires) that are effectively indistinguishable from an (all seasons) in terms of (legal speed limit). But if upgradeability and replaceable parts are your #1 concern, then...yeah, you're not in the target market for a (Bugatti). So that means that it's unlikely you'd ever have been looking at having a (Bugatti) be your (daily driver) in the first place—if you needed one to (race), it would be a secondary machine, where you'd probably set up your (race specs), (tune the engine), (lower the suspension), and test it, then go back to the (car) you actually enjoy using for the rest. Maybe look into a (Maserati)?
chrisweekly 7y ago
(Agrees, and ponders lack of macOS cloud offerings to address this use case.)
- filleduchaos 7y ago
  Is there a lack or have you simply never sought any out?
  - chrisweekly 7y ago
    Fair question. Hadn't looked in several years. Underlying issue of licensing (macOs can only legally run on Apple hw) remains the same. Provisioning a mac mini for $79/mo isn't v appealing, but yeah options do exist.
simonh 7y ago
I just can't get my head around this argument. To write software for a computer platform, shock horror, you need to develop and test it on that platform. To develop software using Apple's OS, services and libraries, you need to buy that OS, those services and those libraries that Apple sells. I don't get why that is a contentious issue, or even a question.
- keawade 7y ago
  The platform in this case would be iOS, not Mac OS. But you can't work with iOS without a Mac OS machine which are particularly expensive. In comparison, Android allows a lot more flexibility of cost when picking a development machine by allowing you to develop from Linux, Windows, or Mac OS.
  - simonh 7y ago
    They're both Apple products running Apple code, which you are free to buy if you so wish.
    - ShroudedNight 7y ago
      This is not my area of expertise, but from what I can gather, to develop apps for iOS devices one requires: - iOS device for testing => iPhone hardware => iOS - macOS device for compiling => Apple PC hardware => macOS - Apple developer account - Selling exclusively via the iOS App Store, yielding a 30% cut to Apple If each aspect sold on its own merits without further restrictions, one could easily imagine (at the very least) building iOS apps using a Linux tool-chain, before uploading them to the App store. That's not an option. Apple is using the perceived value of reaching iOS customers to 'strengthen' the offering of its mac line. This would tend to indicate that it believes the value of having access to its iOS marketplace is large enough to compel developers to purchase its mac hardware at a premium. Apple is using its market power in iOS to bias PC purchases in its favour. The open question is whether Apple's use of its acquired market power is harmful to the broader economic ecosystem, and if it is indeed harmful, is it harmful enough that the state should intervene (which is a harmful process in itself).
mns 7y ago
That is just not true and an exaggeration like that has nothing to do on a board like this. In Europe the prices are even higher for Apple hardware, but because I'm in the market now for an upgrade I can tell you for sure that a 16" MBP is at around 500 Euros more expensive than a similar XPS15 (and I'm not even going into the actual components and the speed of the SSD or others). There is a market for everyone, just like some people like you prefer to pay less for a Dell, Asus or something similar, I would also not go back to a Windows machine or some sort of wobbly inferior built laptop (at least from my point of view).
- duncanawoods 7y ago
  In the UK, Apple will cost you almost 50% more. Spec matching (32GB, 1TB SSD, 8-core 5 Ghz, 4 GB GPU) will cost you an extra 1150 EUR to go Apple. Dell: £2,349.00 Apple: £3,339.00 It's not as though Dell is a worse option for many uses either - there are plenty of strengths e.g. Linux compatibility, nvidia gpu, support for pens, repairability, on-site support.
m12k 7y ago
The price of buying a computer to compile and ship the code with is not going to kill many business models that would otherwise have worked (you can buy a used Mac Mini or make a Hackintosh if you're feeling adventurous vs the TOS). But forcing you to use their payment system which takes a 30% cut - that can and does prevent business models from even being possible. If Apple were not allowed to enforce their payment system's monopoly and reject apps for even linking to other options (I don't get how that can be legal), but had to compete with other solutions, that 30% cut would almost certainly be less.
cmiles74 7y ago
I disagree that application developers for iOS have the option of selling their products on their own. No matter how much money a developer invests in their own e-commerce operation they still have no legal method for getting their application on any iOS device. The only way to sell iOS software is through the Apple App Store.

by mikece 7y ago

rimliu 7y ago

There is a more to laptop than just raw numbers of RAM, SSD and CPU. Paying six-digits for the car that has same number of wheels as Tata — outrageous.

mikece 7y ago
The inability to augment the MacBook Pro is a bigger pain. With my 3 year old Lenovo P50 I can swap BOTH NVMe slots, upgrade the RAM, etc. With the MacBook Pro I can only buy USB-C cables and adapters. Your point about six-figure cars is a good one. I can either spend $90k to $120k on a car to drive to work that's super quiet on the inside, or spend $12k on a used Accord and another $400 on the top-flight Bose noise-cancelling headphones and achieve the same level of quiet on my commute. The way Apple builds their hardware you can't modify it to improve how it works for you; the only option is to take it or leave it.
- danaris 7y ago
  You can use the same Bose headphones with your MacBook, y'know, and they aren't any more a modification of the MacBook than they are of the Accord. You can also plug in external Thunderbolt SSDs that are effectively indistinguishable from an internal in terms of speed. Your analogy kinda falls apart there. But if upgradeability and replaceable parts are your #1 concern, then...yeah, you're not in the target market for a Mac laptop. So that means that it's unlikely you'd ever have been looking at having a Mac be your primary machine in the first place—if you needed one to do development on, it would be a secondary machine, where you'd probably set up your dev environment, check out the code, compile it, and test it, then go back to the computer you actually enjoy using for the rest. Maybe look into a Mac Mini?
  - jtuente 7y ago
    You can use the same (oil) with your (Bugatti), y'know, and they aren't any more a modification of the (Bugatti) than they are of the Accord. You can also (put on racing tires) that are effectively indistinguishable from an (all seasons) in terms of (legal speed limit). But if upgradeability and replaceable parts are your #1 concern, then...yeah, you're not in the target market for a (Bugatti). So that means that it's unlikely you'd ever have been looking at having a (Bugatti) be your (daily driver) in the first place—if you needed one to (race), it would be a secondary machine, where you'd probably set up your (race specs), (tune the engine), (lower the suspension), and test it, then go back to the (car) you actually enjoy using for the rest. Maybe look into a (Maserati)?

chrisweekly 7y ago

(Agrees, and ponders lack of macOS cloud offerings to address this use case.)

filleduchaos 7y ago
Is there a lack or have you simply never sought any out?
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  Fair question. Hadn't looked in several years. Underlying issue of licensing (macOs can only legally run on Apple hw) remains the same. Provisioning a mac mini for $79/mo isn't v appealing, but yeah options do exist.

simonh 7y ago

I just can't get my head around this argument. To write software for a computer platform, shock horror, you need to develop and test it on that platform. To develop software using Apple's OS, services and libraries, you need to buy that OS, those services and those libraries that Apple sells. I don't get why that is a contentious issue, or even a question.

keawade 7y ago
The platform in this case would be iOS, not Mac OS. But you can't work with iOS without a Mac OS machine which are particularly expensive. In comparison, Android allows a lot more flexibility of cost when picking a development machine by allowing you to develop from Linux, Windows, or Mac OS.
- simonh 7y ago
  They're both Apple products running Apple code, which you are free to buy if you so wish.
  - ShroudedNight 7y ago
    This is not my area of expertise, but from what I can gather, to develop apps for iOS devices one requires: - iOS device for testing => iPhone hardware => iOS - macOS device for compiling => Apple PC hardware => macOS - Apple developer account - Selling exclusively via the iOS App Store, yielding a 30% cut to Apple If each aspect sold on its own merits without further restrictions, one could easily imagine (at the very least) building iOS apps using a Linux tool-chain, before uploading them to the App store. That's not an option. Apple is using the perceived value of reaching iOS customers to 'strengthen' the offering of its mac line. This would tend to indicate that it believes the value of having access to its iOS marketplace is large enough to compel developers to purchase its mac hardware at a premium. Apple is using its market power in iOS to bias PC purchases in its favour. The open question is whether Apple's use of its acquired market power is harmful to the broader economic ecosystem, and if it is indeed harmful, is it harmful enough that the state should intervene (which is a harmful process in itself).

mns 7y ago

That is just not true and an exaggeration like that has nothing to do on a board like this. In Europe the prices are even higher for Apple hardware, but because I'm in the market now for an upgrade I can tell you for sure that a 16" MBP is at around 500 Euros more expensive than a similar XPS15 (and I'm not even going into the actual components and the speed of the SSD or others). There is a market for everyone, just like some people like you prefer to pay less for a Dell, Asus or something similar, I would also not go back to a Windows machine or some sort of wobbly inferior built laptop (at least from my point of view).

duncanawoods 7y ago
In the UK, Apple will cost you almost 50% more. Spec matching (32GB, 1TB SSD, 8-core 5 Ghz, 4 GB GPU) will cost you an extra 1150 EUR to go Apple. Dell: £2,349.00 Apple: £3,339.00 It's not as though Dell is a worse option for many uses either - there are plenty of strengths e.g. Linux compatibility, nvidia gpu, support for pens, repairability, on-site support.

m12k 7y ago

The price of buying a computer to compile and ship the code with is not going to kill many business models that would otherwise have worked (you can buy a used Mac Mini or make a Hackintosh if you're feeling adventurous vs the TOS). But forcing you to use their payment system which takes a 30% cut - that can and does prevent business models from even being possible. If Apple were not allowed to enforce their payment system's monopoly and reject apps for even linking to other options (I don't get how that can be legal), but had to compete with other solutions, that 30% cut would almost certainly be less.

cmiles74 7y ago

I disagree that application developers for iOS have the option of selling their products on their own. No matter how much money a developer invests in their own e-commerce operation they still have no legal method for getting their application on any iOS device. The only way to sell iOS software is through the Apple App Store.