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Nit: I wish people wouldn’t mention programming and computer science in the same essay, unless it’s something very technical such as discussing synchronization

Nit: I wish people wouldn’t mention programming and computer science in the same essay, unless it’s something very technical such as discussing synchronization algorithms. Most programming isn’t science. Most programming isn’t even engineering. Most programming is contracting or DIY tinkering. We use ridiculous metaphors like constructing an airport, when most programmers are tradespeople working on renovations. Have you ever inspected the work of a tract house builder? It’s awful and usually plays fast and loose with building codes. When an indie teaches themselves to code, we get the same result as a homeowner teaching themselves to renovate. That’s not a bad thing, but nobody swapping ordinary outlets for outlets with USB-C ports is thinking about Maxwell’s equations.

quickthrowman 7y ago
> Have you ever inspected the work of a tract house builder? It’s awful and usually plays fast and loose with building codes. This is a great metaphor. I work in construction management, and the quality difference between non-union commercial and union commercial firms (let alone a non-union resi contractor) is large enough that a lot of large commercial buildings have union contractor only exclusions (which is good for me, and better for the union tradespeople that perform the work) Programming is far more trade-like than most programmers would like to admit..
simonh 7y ago
I don't see how that's a nit, the article is basically making exactly that point.
petermcneeley 7y ago
Nit: Actually most programmers I know are vastly intellectually overqualified for their jobs. We are talking like science PhDs. It's not "tradespeople working on renovations" it's more like rocket surgeons making mud huts.
- close04 7y ago
  That's probably selection bias due to the circles you're part of. Most of the people I know have at least a master's degree but we can agree that I can't extrapolate based on that data. I'm sure only a small minority of the official ~25.000.000 programmers in the world are science PhDs and rocket surgeons (I expect the unofficial number of programmers is even bigger). I have my doubts that those dime-a-dozen mobile apps or websites are all made by scientists.
- huffmsa 7y ago
  Sounds like they were mislead as to what their career prerequisites were. Or we're just churning out too many Phds
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Specifically job requirements are incorrect. Which big companies have figured out and are hiring for cheap in China and India.
    - petermcneeley 7y ago
      Is that really whats happening? The way I see it is the old guys without even degrees worked on higher quality code than their younger counterparts with increasing levels of education. I think the issue is probably touched on by something like " bullshit jobs" by David graeber
- xsmasher 7y ago
  I would not call that "overqualified," just "overeducated." It turns out the main requirements of the job are not education.
raxxorrax 7y ago
The field is called computer "science" and maybe that creates expectations. But from experience I know that almost all engineering professions put on their pants one leg at a time. There is certainly a large difference between theoretical and applied physicists and computer science lacks this discrimination, but engineering is often about cutting corners where nobody takes a closer look. If a colleague of mine calculates some optics, he puts some numbers in a special software and waits a few hours. There is a lot of mundane work until there is a problem where you can apply computer science. Programming beside the very basics isn't explicitly taught as part of the curriculum. I think it is just a matter of experience and having understood the fundamentals at least at one point in your life. And being surprised about the lacking code quality in "professional" environments is certainly be a regular experience. That aside, nearly any modern game is a fairly complex construct. I know some self-taught programmers that certainly eclipsed the "hobby" phase.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  I wish the following quote was etched in stone, then the stone was loaded into a Trebuchet, and then said Trebuchet was used to lob the stone into the offices of hiring managers worldwide: “Computer Science is no more about computers, than Astronomy is about telescopes.” (Djikstra didn’t originate this. A longer and more interesting version of this was said by Hal Abelson, and a shorter version by Mike Fellows, who said it was a rallying cry of the period. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science) If we stop thinking that computer science is about computers, perhaps we’ll stop thinking a computer science degree is a requirement for clerking or practising a trade in the field, and universities will stop trying to provide a trade education with a gown, mortar, and “science” degree.
- jlangemeier 7y ago
  As someone that's gotten their degrees in Electrical & Computer Engineering I can whole-heartedly agree that this extends to even most engineering degrees; it's why we have EIT & PE grades, and the PE needs to sign off on anything that the company could get sued over. The PE is essentially the safety valve that has both the education (usually also needs a minimum of a Masters Degree) and the experience (at least 5 years in industry) to say "this design isn't hot garbage." And even with that safety valve in place we get unmitigated disasters like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge or the Challenger explosion - which coincidentally are case studies in almost every engineering ethics class and at least one of our design classes at the undergraduate level. And that's just covering the big disasters, there's hundreds of thousands of projects out there that are also held together with duct-tape and bailing twine that passed a PE's stamp of approval. Working for the DoD I saw all sorts of hacks from the engineering department to get custom hardware working to replace 60 year old CoTs products that have been out of production for 30 years but are necessary for things like missile and torpedo guidance.

quickthrowman 7y ago

> Have you ever inspected the work of a tract house builder? It’s awful and usually plays fast and loose with building codes. This is a great metaphor. I work in construction management, and the quality difference between non-union commercial and union commercial firms (let alone a non-union resi contractor) is large enough that a lot of large commercial buildings have union contractor only exclusions (which is good for me, and better for the union tradespeople that perform the work) Programming is far more trade-like than most programmers would like to admit..

simonh 7y ago

I don't see how that's a nit, the article is basically making exactly that point.

petermcneeley 7y ago

Nit: Actually most programmers I know are vastly intellectually overqualified for their jobs. We are talking like science PhDs. It's not "tradespeople working on renovations" it's more like rocket surgeons making mud huts.

close04 7y ago
That's probably selection bias due to the circles you're part of. Most of the people I know have at least a master's degree but we can agree that I can't extrapolate based on that data. I'm sure only a small minority of the official ~25.000.000 programmers in the world are science PhDs and rocket surgeons (I expect the unofficial number of programmers is even bigger). I have my doubts that those dime-a-dozen mobile apps or websites are all made by scientists.
huffmsa 7y ago
Sounds like they were mislead as to what their career prerequisites were. Or we're just churning out too many Phds
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Specifically job requirements are incorrect. Which big companies have figured out and are hiring for cheap in China and India.
  - petermcneeley 7y ago
    Is that really whats happening? The way I see it is the old guys without even degrees worked on higher quality code than their younger counterparts with increasing levels of education. I think the issue is probably touched on by something like " bullshit jobs" by David graeber
xsmasher 7y ago
I would not call that "overqualified," just "overeducated." It turns out the main requirements of the job are not education.

raxxorrax 7y ago

The field is called computer "science" and maybe that creates expectations. But from experience I know that almost all engineering professions put on their pants one leg at a time. There is certainly a large difference between theoretical and applied physicists and computer science lacks this discrimination, but engineering is often about cutting corners where nobody takes a closer look. If a colleague of mine calculates some optics, he puts some numbers in a special software and waits a few hours. There is a lot of mundane work until there is a problem where you can apply computer science. Programming beside the very basics isn't explicitly taught as part of the curriculum. I think it is just a matter of experience and having understood the fundamentals at least at one point in your life. And being surprised about the lacking code quality in "professional" environments is certainly be a regular experience. That aside, nearly any modern game is a fairly complex construct. I know some self-taught programmers that certainly eclipsed the "hobby" phase.

braythwayt 7y ago
I wish the following quote was etched in stone, then the stone was loaded into a Trebuchet, and then said Trebuchet was used to lob the stone into the offices of hiring managers worldwide: “Computer Science is no more about computers, than Astronomy is about telescopes.” (Djikstra didn’t originate this. A longer and more interesting version of this was said by Hal Abelson, and a shorter version by Mike Fellows, who said it was a rallying cry of the period. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science) If we stop thinking that computer science is about computers, perhaps we’ll stop thinking a computer science degree is a requirement for clerking or practising a trade in the field, and universities will stop trying to provide a trade education with a gown, mortar, and “science” degree.
jlangemeier 7y ago
As someone that's gotten their degrees in Electrical & Computer Engineering I can whole-heartedly agree that this extends to even most engineering degrees; it's why we have EIT & PE grades, and the PE needs to sign off on anything that the company could get sued over. The PE is essentially the safety valve that has both the education (usually also needs a minimum of a Masters Degree) and the experience (at least 5 years in industry) to say "this design isn't hot garbage." And even with that safety valve in place we get unmitigated disasters like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge or the Challenger explosion - which coincidentally are case studies in almost every engineering ethics class and at least one of our design classes at the undergraduate level. And that's just covering the big disasters, there's hundreds of thousands of projects out there that are also held together with duct-tape and bailing twine that passed a PE's stamp of approval. Working for the DoD I saw all sorts of hacks from the engineering department to get custom hardware working to replace 60 year old CoTs products that have been out of production for 30 years but are necessary for things like missile and torpedo guidance.