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Meanwhile college is 500€ a year in France...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nicolas_t 7y ago
That's true but the cost per student is much higher than that. I know that for example a student at a grande école back when I was in an engineering school early 2000 cost 35k euros per year to the state. It's probably even more now...
rayiner 7y ago
Meanwhile the tax wedge in France is 50%, versus 30% in the United States: https://images.app.goo.gl/w7bDooKFRoRewLYn8 https://images.app.goo.gl/w7bDooKFRoRewLYn8. On a $50,000 income, it’ll take only 4 years for the tax savings to offset the benefit of “free college” (assuming average public school tuition). If you include the average cost of employer-provided health insurance in the tax wedge, you come out ahead in the US in 7 years (assuming 5% rate of return). Of course, then there is the fact that Americans earn more. To use teachers as an example of a college required job: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/gov_glance-2017-35-en.pdf?expires=1578976467&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=10D51B9B7B45160447639128805435E2 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/gov_glance-2017-35-e.... Average salary of $27,000 (adjusted for purchasing power) in France versus $40,000 in the US. Before employer taxes is about $36,000 in France. Before employer taxes and health insurance it’s about $49,000 in the US. Applying the tax wedge again, the US teacher is making more than $10,000 per year more to start, and will offset the difference in free college in a bit over 4 years. After 15 years experience, the US teacher will be earning $75,000 before employer side taxes and health insurance, while the French teacher will be at $51,000.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  This discounts all the other benefits the French are getting for their taxes beyond it paying for higher education and healthcare; eg much better public transit. You will still probably do better in the USA, especially at higher incomes, but the French aren’t very unhappy with their life quality.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Public transit can be considered a liability, not a benefit: https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-year-on-public-transport https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-y... > 92 minutes. That’s the amount of time on average that people in the Paris area spend on public transport each day of their lives. > And if the figure is only applied to those who work then it rises to 113 minutes each day. > So basically that’s over an hour and half sitting, or more likely standing, on the Metro, RER trains or buses according to a new study by France’s Urban Development institute. A typical Houstonian, where the average commute is under an hour, isn’t pining for higher taxes and public transit.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Pretty sure I would be happier living in Paris than Houston, but to each their own. Alain just to be clear, are commutes cumulatively measured both ways in Houston as well, so you mean they spend less than 60 minutes each day commuting? Or do you mean less than 120 minutes (to go and get back)?
      - rayiner 7y ago
        60 minutes round trip.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        That’s pretty good then. My one way commute in Lausanne was 10 minutes by bike (15 on return since...up hill), but I intentionally lived near where I worked and the city. Paris offers similar options, but you don’t get a big place as you would get in the outer districts.
- Glawen 7y ago
  Meanwhile you know little about tax system in Europe and you just blindly apply a ratio to an average taken from a picture. In France, raising a family or marry someone who earns less than you will reduce your income tax, unlike Germany for example. About teacher's pay, if you look into the details, you will find that the french state motto is "Do as I say, not as I do". All the annoying employment law do not apply when the french state is the employer. As such, the brutto/netto salary ratio for teachers is bigger than other employee. But the main perk is not salary, it is the 2 month summer holidays and job for life, and of course free healthcare and pension plan.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    > But the main perk is not salary, it is the 2 month summer holidays and job for life, and of course free healthcare and pension plan. Those are not meaningfully different in the US. Public service unions are great everywhere.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Teacher pensions in France don’t seem particularly generous: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/10/last-straw-teachers-france-join-nationwide-strike https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/10/last-straw-tea.... > One teacher’s union put it this way. A retiree with a 40 year career in teaching might have finally attained a salary of 3,200 euros a month. Right now, they would retire with 2,281 euros a month, but after the reforms, that would decrease to 1,803 euros. Here in Anne Arundel county Maryland (which is kind of a middling state in terms of tax and public employee benefits), teachers with a bachelors degree earn $45,000 to start going up to $65,000. Pension benefits from the Maryland state employee retirement system after a 40-year career (to match the calculation above), would be $32,000. But Maryland teachers are also eligible for Social Security. At that salary range, that’s be an additional $25,000 per year. People have this idea that lower salaries in Europe are made up by the better benefits. That might be true for low income earners, but it's mathematically impossible for that to be true for above-median earners. Europe has more benefits and a flatter income distribution, but one of the costs of that is significantly less economic production. Even factoring out corporate profits and the income of the top 1%, the U.S. economy amounts to about $47,400 per person. For France, its about $33,600.[1] Given that French taxes rest mainly on the bottom 99%, and provide a more generous safety net for the poor, it's literally impossible for an above-median person like a teacher to be anywhere near as well off, even accounting for benefits, in France as compared to the US.[2] [1] This is based on looking at the current accounts for the various countries. I estimate $2 trillion in top 1% income and $1.9 trillion in corporate profits for the U.S., and $188 billion in corporate profits and $139 billion in top 1% income in France. The latter calculation relies on the reported figure that the top 1% earns 10% of all income in France and 20% in the U.S., but assumes that personal income as a share of GDP is similar in the two countries. [2] Note that the $5,000 extra that Americans pay for healthcare compared to the French will reduce that gap somewhat for the average worker. But since we excluded corporate profits and top 1% incomes from the calculation, most of that extra money is going to be redistributed to incomes of bottom-99% healthcare workers.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

That's true but the cost per student is much higher than that. I know that for example a student at a grande école back when I was in an engineering school early 2000 cost 35k euros per year to the state. It's probably even more now...

rayiner 7y ago

Meanwhile the tax wedge in France is 50%, versus 30% in the United States: https://images.app.goo.gl/w7bDooKFRoRewLYn8 https://images.app.goo.gl/w7bDooKFRoRewLYn8. On a $50,000 income, it’ll take only 4 years for the tax savings to offset the benefit of “free college” (assuming average public school tuition). If you include the average cost of employer-provided health insurance in the tax wedge, you come out ahead in the US in 7 years (assuming 5% rate of return). Of course, then there is the fact that Americans earn more. To use teachers as an example of a college required job: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/gov_glance-2017-35-en.pdf?expires=1578976467&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=10D51B9B7B45160447639128805435E2 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/gov_glance-2017-35-e.... Average salary of $27,000 (adjusted for purchasing power) in France versus $40,000 in the US. Before employer taxes is about $36,000 in France. Before employer taxes and health insurance it’s about $49,000 in the US. Applying the tax wedge again, the US teacher is making more than $10,000 per year more to start, and will offset the difference in free college in a bit over 4 years. After 15 years experience, the US teacher will be earning $75,000 before employer side taxes and health insurance, while the French teacher will be at $51,000.

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
This discounts all the other benefits the French are getting for their taxes beyond it paying for higher education and healthcare; eg much better public transit. You will still probably do better in the USA, especially at higher incomes, but the French aren’t very unhappy with their life quality.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Public transit can be considered a liability, not a benefit: https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-year-on-public-transport https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-y... > 92 minutes. That’s the amount of time on average that people in the Paris area spend on public transport each day of their lives. > And if the figure is only applied to those who work then it rises to 113 minutes each day. > So basically that’s over an hour and half sitting, or more likely standing, on the Metro, RER trains or buses according to a new study by France’s Urban Development institute. A typical Houstonian, where the average commute is under an hour, isn’t pining for higher taxes and public transit.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Pretty sure I would be happier living in Paris than Houston, but to each their own. Alain just to be clear, are commutes cumulatively measured both ways in Houston as well, so you mean they spend less than 60 minutes each day commuting? Or do you mean less than 120 minutes (to go and get back)?
    - rayiner 7y ago
      60 minutes round trip.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        That’s pretty good then. My one way commute in Lausanne was 10 minutes by bike (15 on return since...up hill), but I intentionally lived near where I worked and the city. Paris offers similar options, but you don’t get a big place as you would get in the outer districts.
Glawen 7y ago
Meanwhile you know little about tax system in Europe and you just blindly apply a ratio to an average taken from a picture. In France, raising a family or marry someone who earns less than you will reduce your income tax, unlike Germany for example. About teacher's pay, if you look into the details, you will find that the french state motto is "Do as I say, not as I do". All the annoying employment law do not apply when the french state is the employer. As such, the brutto/netto salary ratio for teachers is bigger than other employee. But the main perk is not salary, it is the 2 month summer holidays and job for life, and of course free healthcare and pension plan.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > But the main perk is not salary, it is the 2 month summer holidays and job for life, and of course free healthcare and pension plan. Those are not meaningfully different in the US. Public service unions are great everywhere.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Teacher pensions in France don’t seem particularly generous: https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/10/last-straw-teachers-france-join-nationwide-strike https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/10/last-straw-tea.... > One teacher’s union put it this way. A retiree with a 40 year career in teaching might have finally attained a salary of 3,200 euros a month. Right now, they would retire with 2,281 euros a month, but after the reforms, that would decrease to 1,803 euros. Here in Anne Arundel county Maryland (which is kind of a middling state in terms of tax and public employee benefits), teachers with a bachelors degree earn $45,000 to start going up to $65,000. Pension benefits from the Maryland state employee retirement system after a 40-year career (to match the calculation above), would be $32,000. But Maryland teachers are also eligible for Social Security. At that salary range, that’s be an additional $25,000 per year. People have this idea that lower salaries in Europe are made up by the better benefits. That might be true for low income earners, but it's mathematically impossible for that to be true for above-median earners. Europe has more benefits and a flatter income distribution, but one of the costs of that is significantly less economic production. Even factoring out corporate profits and the income of the top 1%, the U.S. economy amounts to about $47,400 per person. For France, its about $33,600.[1] Given that French taxes rest mainly on the bottom 99%, and provide a more generous safety net for the poor, it's literally impossible for an above-median person like a teacher to be anywhere near as well off, even accounting for benefits, in France as compared to the US.[2] [1] This is based on looking at the current accounts for the various countries. I estimate $2 trillion in top 1% income and $1.9 trillion in corporate profits for the U.S., and $188 billion in corporate profits and $139 billion in top 1% income in France. The latter calculation relies on the reported figure that the top 1% earns 10% of all income in France and 20% in the U.S., but assumes that personal income as a share of GDP is similar in the two countries. [2] Note that the $5,000 extra that Americans pay for healthcare compared to the French will reduce that gap somewhat for the average worker. But since we excluded corporate profits and top 1% incomes from the calculation, most of that extra money is going to be redistributed to incomes of bottom-99% healthcare workers.