4 ms·

Not only is it not irrational, we're also ignoring what we're being forced to give up because of all these cars. Kids can't just run or bike around their neigh

by magduf 7y ago

Not only is it not irrational, we're also ignoring what we're being forced to give up because of all these cars. Kids can't just run or bike around their neighborhoods safely without worrying about (or their parents worrying about) them being killed. So kids are just staying inside all the time, playing video games and getting fat.

tptacek 7y ago
The streets in my neighborhood are crammed full of kids walking, playing, and biking. Maybe this is an idiosyncrasy of the neighborhood you live in, and not a generalizable truth about America and cars.
- magduf 7y ago
  I'm quite sure what you describe is not at all normal for suburban America. Maybe there's a few pockets here and there where kids have found some safe spaces, such as in cul-de-sacs, but overall subdivisions have too many speeding drivers for kids to be safe leaving their yard.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Well, I'm in Oak Park, a dense adjacent suburb of Chicago, there are cars everywhere, and there are kids on every street. Is Chicago somehow special?
    - magduf 7y ago
      Ok, so there's cars speeding around your neighborhoods, and kids playing on these very same streets without somehow getting hit by all the speeding cars? Sorry, I don't buy it.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        That is indeed what is happening. It's how I remember things growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how things were in Ann Arbor when we lived there with our young kids, as well.
        magduf 7y ago
        So you let your young (under 10yo) kids bumble around on bicycles in the streets with traffic whizzing by at 30-45mph?
        kasey_junk 7y ago
        Why are you assuming that traffic is moving at 30-45 mph through a neighborhood. In my neighborhood the speed limit is universally 25 and the stop signs & one way streets keep traffic speeds down. My son doesn’t know how to ride a bike yet but there are certainly under 10 yo all around riding in the streets. Further my son does walk to the park down the street by himself or with friends with the usual guidance about cars (“look both ways” etc).
        magduf 7y ago
        >Why are you assuming that traffic is moving at 30-45 mph through a neighborhood. Because that's what I see in the suburbs here in DC. >In my neighborhood the speed limit is universally 25 and the stop signs & one way streets keep traffic speeds down. Those aren't typical American suburbs if there's 1-way streets. That sounds much more urban in fact. The suburbs I typically see have wide streets, and 35mph speed limits, and people driving around quite a bit faster than that in their huge luxury SUVs. I also don't see kids in the streets at all, and for good reason: it's too dangerous. I don't feel safe at all on my bike, even though I ride very fast and as far right as I can (I only ride in the subdivision near me so I can get to the multi-use trail on the other side).
        tptacek 7y ago
        My kids are in college right now, but everyone else in Oak Park seems to, as did everyone in Ann Arbor, as did --- to an even greater extent --- every family --- every family; it would have been extremely weird not to be allowed to ride your bike in the streets in the 1980s --- in the south side of Chicago when I was growing up, at a time when traffic fatalities were more than twice as high as they are now. I don't think your argument is rooted in facts. It is in fact illegal in Chicago to ride your bike on the sidewalk. Your contention would have to be that children have simply ceased using bicycles, which is obviously not true.
  - kasey_junk 7y ago
    As my experience lines up with ‘tptaceks I’m curious if there is some objective measure we could use to determine if we are the outliers or your experience is. Presumably that metric would track back in time to some pre-time where suburbs were safer from cars and kids didn’t have to hunker town in front of screens for safety.
  - akerl_ 7y ago
    I’m curious when the turning point for this would be? Given that suburbs themselves are effectively a product of a car-based commuter model, wouldn’t suburbs have always had car traffic as a basic part of their formula? Pre-ubiquitous-cars, suburbs didn’t really exist. So it seems that any suburb-dwelling children would have always had to deal with streets used by cars.

by magduf 7y ago

tptacek 7y ago

The streets in my neighborhood are crammed full of kids walking, playing, and biking. Maybe this is an idiosyncrasy of the neighborhood you live in, and not a generalizable truth about America and cars.

magduf 7y ago
I'm quite sure what you describe is not at all normal for suburban America. Maybe there's a few pockets here and there where kids have found some safe spaces, such as in cul-de-sacs, but overall subdivisions have too many speeding drivers for kids to be safe leaving their yard.
- tptacek 7y ago
  Well, I'm in Oak Park, a dense adjacent suburb of Chicago, there are cars everywhere, and there are kids on every street. Is Chicago somehow special?
  - magduf 7y ago
    Ok, so there's cars speeding around your neighborhoods, and kids playing on these very same streets without somehow getting hit by all the speeding cars? Sorry, I don't buy it.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      That is indeed what is happening. It's how I remember things growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how things were in Ann Arbor when we lived there with our young kids, as well.
      - magduf 7y ago
        So you let your young (under 10yo) kids bumble around on bicycles in the streets with traffic whizzing by at 30-45mph?
        kasey_junk 7y ago
        Why are you assuming that traffic is moving at 30-45 mph through a neighborhood. In my neighborhood the speed limit is universally 25 and the stop signs & one way streets keep traffic speeds down. My son doesn’t know how to ride a bike yet but there are certainly under 10 yo all around riding in the streets. Further my son does walk to the park down the street by himself or with friends with the usual guidance about cars (“look both ways” etc).
        magduf 7y ago
        >Why are you assuming that traffic is moving at 30-45 mph through a neighborhood. Because that's what I see in the suburbs here in DC. >In my neighborhood the speed limit is universally 25 and the stop signs & one way streets keep traffic speeds down. Those aren't typical American suburbs if there's 1-way streets. That sounds much more urban in fact. The suburbs I typically see have wide streets, and 35mph speed limits, and people driving around quite a bit faster than that in their huge luxury SUVs. I also don't see kids in the streets at all, and for good reason: it's too dangerous. I don't feel safe at all on my bike, even though I ride very fast and as far right as I can (I only ride in the subdivision near me so I can get to the multi-use trail on the other side).
        tptacek 7y ago
        My kids are in college right now, but everyone else in Oak Park seems to, as did everyone in Ann Arbor, as did --- to an even greater extent --- every family --- every family; it would have been extremely weird not to be allowed to ride your bike in the streets in the 1980s --- in the south side of Chicago when I was growing up, at a time when traffic fatalities were more than twice as high as they are now. I don't think your argument is rooted in facts. It is in fact illegal in Chicago to ride your bike on the sidewalk. Your contention would have to be that children have simply ceased using bicycles, which is obviously not true.
- kasey_junk 7y ago
  As my experience lines up with ‘tptaceks I’m curious if there is some objective measure we could use to determine if we are the outliers or your experience is. Presumably that metric would track back in time to some pre-time where suburbs were safer from cars and kids didn’t have to hunker town in front of screens for safety.
- akerl_ 7y ago
  I’m curious when the turning point for this would be? Given that suburbs themselves are effectively a product of a car-based commuter model, wouldn’t suburbs have always had car traffic as a basic part of their formula? Pre-ubiquitous-cars, suburbs didn’t really exist. So it seems that any suburb-dwelling children would have always had to deal with streets used by cars.