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> Among economists and policy analysts who have examined these unsettling trends, the general consensus is that declining male workforce participation in modern

> Among economists and policy analysts who have examined these unsettling trends, the general consensus is that declining male workforce participation in modern America is mainly a structural, demand-driven problem — a matter of evaporating local jobs, and especially jobs requiring limited skills, in an increasingly dynamic and globalized marketplace. Basically these are the men would have traditionally "built stuff"; factory workers, etc. We don't have any factories anymore. >If this assessment is more or less correct, it would be hard to overstate the importance of education and training as instruments for addressing our "men without work" crisis. How would that help? We don't have jobs for them. And the few that maybe could find work, well, those jobs will soon enough be automated away. > Third, there is America's curiously poor prime-age male labor-force participation-rate performance in comparison with other affluent never-communist democracies. Between 1965 and 2015, U.S. levels fell faster and sank lower than in any comparable country, with the exception of Italy (where official employment figures notoriously neglect "unofficial" work income). Yet America's race to the bottom in prime-age male labor-force participation is not readily explained by lackluster economic growth (which could also be called sluggish demand). In America (USA) you ARE your job; it defines you. The American Way is to be hard working and self sufficient. If you can't do that, there are tremendous psychological effects. You can't blame these men for giving up. We need to accept that this is the way forward and stop treating people who don't work like leaches. We need to retrain society that there will be plenty of able bodied people without work and society will need to take care of them.

leereeves 7y ago
> We don't have any factories anymore. Factories still exist, they're just in other countries. And in China alone, they employ 100 million people.
- jbay808 7y ago
  I don't think the parent meant otherwise. Or are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    I just think it's important to properly identify the nature of the problem, so we can try to solve it. Many people assume that we don't have factories anymore because of automation, but worldwide, manufacturing employment is still enormous. An import economy is good in some ways, but it's bad for people who would like to have a factory job.
    - jbay808 7y ago
      Ah... It was beyond my imagination that GGP would believe, or intend to imply, that there's any shortage factory work to be found in China. But since you find that you do meet people who actually believe that... Then all I can say is I'm just very amazed!
      - leereeves 7y ago
        It's Andrew Yang's whole platform: automation is putting us all out of work. But it's not true - China is putting Americans out of work, not automation. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/andrew-yang-automation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/andrew-yang-a...
  - cmdshiftf4 7y ago
    >are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country. I'm saying this just to play devil's advocate here and propose something slightly contradictory - many people who were facing the same issues (no work, or poor work) in other countries jumped those same hurdles to find work they found meaningful and could provide for themselves and their families in the US and Europe. If there's an opportunity for a better life elsewhere now - sustainable work paying a sustainable living which can provide for life sustainably elsewhere - what puts American's above picking up and doing their best to go there?
- throwaway55554 7y ago
  I didn't interpret the post as being about men throughout the world, but only men w/in the USA and so that is the context under which I posted.
mrec 7y ago
You might like the 2014 SSC post "Burdens" [1]. A sample: > Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that could have supported him and replacing it with things that required skills he didn’t have. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/
o09rdk 7y ago
In the US, you have heights of inequality, underemployment, and rampant rent-seeking monopolies, along with ageism. In my experience, among those who are employed and paid well, the hours are often brutal and huge sacrifices are being asked. Then as a society we pretend it's all a meritocracy and if you are just talented enough and hard working enough it will work out. If it doesn't, it's your fault. Says the survivors. Is it any surprise so many are tuning out? It's cliche that's nevertheless true, but for many the system is rigged and it's looking more like that all the time. If you feel like it's all a rigged game why deign to play it at all? I worry that the focus on basic income etc and loss of labor jobs is kind of missing the point: a lot of these individuals could and would work if the right social contracts were in place, and people were really allowed to provide what they are capable of in a competitive market.

leereeves 7y ago

> We don't have any factories anymore. Factories still exist, they're just in other countries. And in China alone, they employ 100 million people.

jbay808 7y ago
I don't think the parent meant otherwise. Or are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country.
- leereeves 7y ago
  I just think it's important to properly identify the nature of the problem, so we can try to solve it. Many people assume that we don't have factories anymore because of automation, but worldwide, manufacturing employment is still enormous. An import economy is good in some ways, but it's bad for people who would like to have a factory job.
  - jbay808 7y ago
    Ah... It was beyond my imagination that GGP would believe, or intend to imply, that there's any shortage factory work to be found in China. But since you find that you do meet people who actually believe that... Then all I can say is I'm just very amazed!
    - leereeves 7y ago
      It's Andrew Yang's whole platform: automation is putting us all out of work. But it's not true - China is putting Americans out of work, not automation. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/andrew-yang-automation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/andrew-yang-a...
- cmdshiftf4 7y ago
  >are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country. I'm saying this just to play devil's advocate here and propose something slightly contradictory - many people who were facing the same issues (no work, or poor work) in other countries jumped those same hurdles to find work they found meaningful and could provide for themselves and their families in the US and Europe. If there's an opportunity for a better life elsewhere now - sustainable work paying a sustainable living which can provide for life sustainably elsewhere - what puts American's above picking up and doing their best to go there?
throwaway55554 7y ago
I didn't interpret the post as being about men throughout the world, but only men w/in the USA and so that is the context under which I posted.

mrec 7y ago

You might like the 2014 SSC post "Burdens" [1]. A sample: > Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that could have supported him and replacing it with things that required skills he didn’t have. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/

o09rdk 7y ago

In the US, you have heights of inequality, underemployment, and rampant rent-seeking monopolies, along with ageism. In my experience, among those who are employed and paid well, the hours are often brutal and huge sacrifices are being asked. Then as a society we pretend it's all a meritocracy and if you are just talented enough and hard working enough it will work out. If it doesn't, it's your fault. Says the survivors. Is it any surprise so many are tuning out? It's cliche that's nevertheless true, but for many the system is rigged and it's looking more like that all the time. If you feel like it's all a rigged game why deign to play it at all? I worry that the focus on basic income etc and loss of labor jobs is kind of missing the point: a lot of these individuals could and would work if the right social contracts were in place, and people were really allowed to provide what they are capable of in a competitive market.