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As unpopular it may be to say such a politically incorrect thing (admitting this is a generalization, and all the caveats that come with it) -- Men generally h

As unpopular it may be to say such a politically incorrect thing (admitting this is a generalization, and all the caveats that come with it) -- Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). My point is that when they don't get an outlet to do this, they cause trouble. Idle hands are the tools of the devil. They get in trouble, they cause trouble. They create things, but also get into trouble. And a society that doesn't provide outlets for working-aged males to go out and do things is inviting trouble. What I observe about the US is that we are making the cost of employing people so high that we have no incremental way to put people at the low end of the skills ladder (or at the high end of aging out) to even minimal use -- and the only way to get even a low level purpose in life is to be employed by a company that goes through very constrained legal and regulatory calculus to employ someone. In other countries, people who are unemployed can: -- Be community volunteers next to government workers to augment local capabilities -- Be ticket takers on buses, trains -- Be part time informal labor / delivery people -- Be "shop minders" who aren't fully employees but help when needed All these things for even a paltry wage, but purpose in life. In other countries, you notice immediately the presence of such people. But we in the US have foreclosed the ability for people to fill these roles. I guess the last time we did this was with the WPA. The very rules we have in place to protect people (and claimed benefit of workplace standards, etc) prevent many at the bottom from being useful. It's to our societal peril, as we can see lately.

aklemm 7y ago
It's not obvious to me that your assessment is even close to accurate, so it would help to know more about which countries you've observed and also where can we find data on this topic. My observation would be more like: there are less regulated and less bountiful countries, and there are more regulated and more bountiful countries, but I don't know of less regulated more bountiful countries.
empath75 7y ago
> Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). What an obnoxious thing to do. You know you're stating a controversial opinion, or you wouldn't have said that. You don't get to set the rules of conversation like that.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Especially without any attempt at citation. "I'm going to say a deliberately inflammatory thing and also it's not up for discussion. But it's also the foundation upon which my argument is built. No critiquing that though, because then my argument might not be sound."
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    > No critiquing that though, because then my argument might not be sound." I also make statements and pose arguments about all manner of topics without citation of my foundations. I know and believe what I believe (which are different things), but it is not required that I simultaneously try to educate or argue with base topics that are not relevant to my topic. I can argue forever with people who dont or cant come to the same place, which is not constructive for me. Apologies, but I have already moved on. You disagree with the precepts and thats fine. Begging for the well tread evidence is noise when it will make no difference to either of us except require you to make up another reason to whine about how wrong the idea is. It is a loss every time I see this same kind of backhanded exchange (ie "You haven't convinced me and I don't agree with the precept") as a form of participation in a discussion.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      Interesting take, I suppose. It's pretty dismissive of people who don't agree with your beliefs as 'whiners' rather than trying to engage in some sort of discussion with you. I agree that sometimes it's useful to pose arguments and skip the citations, but that usually relies on both parties agreeing that the axioms are at least plausible. I'm willing to entertain discussion on things I don't necessary agree with or don't have data for if I think there's a chance they are true. I suppose if you are trying to be more evangelical about your ideas rather than inviting discourse on them, then by all means, continue. I just see so many people these days who are closed off to new perspectives who also insist they are having 'rational' discourse about a topic.
      - cmdshiftf4 7y ago
wccrawford 7y ago
"Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things." I see no evidence that this is a male thing, versus a female thing, or even that all men feel this. I see plenty of men who just coast through life with no curiosity or drive. They don't explore or discover, they just consume and do what they're told so they can consume some more.
- rimliu 7y ago
  And then there is this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4680619/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4680619/
  - Konnstann 7y ago
    Obligatory "IN MICE", but interesting study nonetheless.
- bnjms 7y ago
  > I see no evidence that this is a male thing, versus a female thing I’ve yet to see a valid generalization for men that did not hold for women. Though sometimes the perspective changes.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- ntsplnkv2 7y ago
  Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Most of my male friends that fit under what the article is talking about have wants/desires. They're just covered up by crippling anxiety/depression. Not to validate that men only have these traits. But ultimately most of the conversation on here comes from the stereotypes we as a society place on gender based off of a misunderstanding of evolution.
mech1234 7y ago
As a counterpoint to the many people replying against your general point that men have a stronge urge to adventure, I will go ahead and say that I agree with you. Just looking at the outcomes of history, the number of male explorers, warriors, and adventurers strongly supports the case. There are some psychological differences between men and women that are intuitively obvious, and well researched in psychology, but get people riled up. As a standard disclaimer- this is all on average, and individuals vary greatly. I would figure that men's greater aggressiveness corroborates an adventuresome nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#Aggression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#...
nickthemagicman 7y ago
What you're saying doesn't make sense. We have right to work states that can hire you and fire you all in the same hour. What is this 'constrained legal and regulatory calculus'? I've worked as 1099 and my company literally just gave me a check. Zero overhead. And that's an option everywhere in America. For W2 employees you can outsource your H.R. to ADP for 200 bucks a month for 10-15 employees. This appears outright wrong and reeks of having an agenda especially because no sources were cited
rocqua 7y ago
> Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). I'd drop biological here. Because it might just as well be a cultural or social cause. The important observation is that men have the need to have adventures and women don't. The rest of your argument stands without needing to assert this is about biology.
- remarkEon 7y ago
  That the trend exists across cultures suggests that culture might only be part of it. Not 100% due to biology, to be sure, but intuitively it makes sense that it's a significant drive simply based on how humans evolved and what gender roles existed because of our biology (men hunting and gathering, women raising children).
  - rocqua 7y ago
    That's a debate we could have, though I don't particularly care for it. My point is that the entire argument stands without making this assertion, so why not leave it out.
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
I think it's unfair of you to introduce a premise, make a series of conclusions based off of it, and then say "don't challenge the premise", especially when the premise itself isn't an obvious or easily verifiable fact.

aklemm 7y ago

It's not obvious to me that your assessment is even close to accurate, so it would help to know more about which countries you've observed and also where can we find data on this topic. My observation would be more like: there are less regulated and less bountiful countries, and there are more regulated and more bountiful countries, but I don't know of less regulated more bountiful countries.

empath75 7y ago

> Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). What an obnoxious thing to do. You know you're stating a controversial opinion, or you wouldn't have said that. You don't get to set the rules of conversation like that.

Pfhreak 7y ago
Especially without any attempt at citation. "I'm going to say a deliberately inflammatory thing and also it's not up for discussion. But it's also the foundation upon which my argument is built. No critiquing that though, because then my argument might not be sound."
- Supermancho 7y ago
  > No critiquing that though, because then my argument might not be sound." I also make statements and pose arguments about all manner of topics without citation of my foundations. I know and believe what I believe (which are different things), but it is not required that I simultaneously try to educate or argue with base topics that are not relevant to my topic. I can argue forever with people who dont or cant come to the same place, which is not constructive for me. Apologies, but I have already moved on. You disagree with the precepts and thats fine. Begging for the well tread evidence is noise when it will make no difference to either of us except require you to make up another reason to whine about how wrong the idea is. It is a loss every time I see this same kind of backhanded exchange (ie "You haven't convinced me and I don't agree with the precept") as a form of participation in a discussion.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Interesting take, I suppose. It's pretty dismissive of people who don't agree with your beliefs as 'whiners' rather than trying to engage in some sort of discussion with you. I agree that sometimes it's useful to pose arguments and skip the citations, but that usually relies on both parties agreeing that the axioms are at least plausible. I'm willing to entertain discussion on things I don't necessary agree with or don't have data for if I think there's a chance they are true. I suppose if you are trying to be more evangelical about your ideas rather than inviting discourse on them, then by all means, continue. I just see so many people these days who are closed off to new perspectives who also insist they are having 'rational' discourse about a topic.
    - cmdshiftf4 7y ago

wccrawford 7y ago

"Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things." I see no evidence that this is a male thing, versus a female thing, or even that all men feel this. I see plenty of men who just coast through life with no curiosity or drive. They don't explore or discover, they just consume and do what they're told so they can consume some more.

rimliu 7y ago
And then there is this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4680619/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4680619/
- Konnstann 7y ago
  Obligatory "IN MICE", but interesting study nonetheless.
bnjms 7y ago
> I see no evidence that this is a male thing, versus a female thing I’ve yet to see a valid generalization for men that did not hold for women. Though sometimes the perspective changes.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ntsplnkv2 7y ago
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Most of my male friends that fit under what the article is talking about have wants/desires. They're just covered up by crippling anxiety/depression. Not to validate that men only have these traits. But ultimately most of the conversation on here comes from the stereotypes we as a society place on gender based off of a misunderstanding of evolution.

mech1234 7y ago

As a counterpoint to the many people replying against your general point that men have a stronge urge to adventure, I will go ahead and say that I agree with you. Just looking at the outcomes of history, the number of male explorers, warriors, and adventurers strongly supports the case. There are some psychological differences between men and women that are intuitively obvious, and well researched in psychology, but get people riled up. As a standard disclaimer- this is all on average, and individuals vary greatly. I would figure that men's greater aggressiveness corroborates an adventuresome nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#Aggression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#...

nickthemagicman 7y ago

What you're saying doesn't make sense. We have right to work states that can hire you and fire you all in the same hour. What is this 'constrained legal and regulatory calculus'? I've worked as 1099 and my company literally just gave me a check. Zero overhead. And that's an option everywhere in America. For W2 employees you can outsource your H.R. to ADP for 200 bucks a month for 10-15 employees. This appears outright wrong and reeks of having an agenda especially because no sources were cited

rocqua 7y ago

> Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). I'd drop biological here. Because it might just as well be a cultural or social cause. The important observation is that men have the need to have adventures and women don't. The rest of your argument stands without needing to assert this is about biology.

remarkEon 7y ago
That the trend exists across cultures suggests that culture might only be part of it. Not 100% due to biology, to be sure, but intuitively it makes sense that it's a significant drive simply based on how humans evolved and what gender roles existed because of our biology (men hunting and gathering, women raising children).
- rocqua 7y ago
  That's a debate we could have, though I don't particularly care for it. My point is that the entire argument stands without making this assertion, so why not leave it out.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

I think it's unfair of you to introduce a premise, make a series of conclusions based off of it, and then say "don't challenge the premise", especially when the premise itself isn't an obvious or easily verifiable fact.