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And then the owners can do what they did in Vancouver and rent the properties out to students for a couple months before tax time, claim the lots aren't vacant

And then the owners can do what they did in Vancouver and rent the properties out to students for a couple months before tax time, claim the lots aren't vacant and avoid the tax, then jack up the rent so high they're forced to move. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/college-kids-are-living-like-kings-in-vancouver-s-empty-mansions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-16/college-k... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/in-vancouver-empty-units-evade-new-tax-amid-fuzzy-definitions/article38309993/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/in-van...

scottlegrand2 7y ago
And if we started treating behavior like this as equivalent to the search for bug bounties, we could iteratively patch the law until it is no longer cost-effective to search for them.
- DevX101 7y ago
  Unlike software, legal bugs are often by design.
  - jka 7y ago
    Somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously: I wish that laws and changes to them were organized and published like repos and pull requests on github. It'd be such a lead forward in transparency if 'bugs' (loopholes), authors, and proposed changes were out in the open -- and the history and reasoning behind them equally public. In theory I think this is the way many countries legal systems already work: the case law and regulations are technically public. But it's generally only accessible (in both the sense of retrieval, and also in the sense of understanding the language) to subject experts.
    - sk0g 7y ago
      Software bugs and proposed changes _are_ accessible only to subject experts, or people keen enough wrt. software to be of above average technological competence. The only difference is, were the subject matter experts in the domain where GitHub and the likes rule. At least where I live, court records are accessible to the lay person (after clearing some hurdles). Will anyone look at them aside from lawyers and law students? Probably not... Greater transparency in lawmaking and governance is always a good thing, though, and most government's don't achieve it to any great extent.
  - distantaidenn 7y ago
    This. I was working with a startup and on my first day onsite, I was sat next to the company lawyer. He told me he had just finished up a contract that was riddled with landmines. He seemed so proud of himself. At a later point when renegotiating, I was given one of these dangerous contracts to sign. When I brought to light my concerns, said lawyer set up a face to face with me. His first words were, "If you weren't an engineer, you would have made a good lawyer." Boggles the mind.
nickthemagicman 7y ago
Just jack up property tax for every home beyond the first one owns. That includes corporations.
- kasey_junk 7y ago
  Most landlords already setup a corporation per building for asset protection reasons.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Charging corporations a significantly increased rate on single family homes is equally effective.
- macawfish 7y ago
  I agree, and for out of town landlords as well
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  That would have a very regressive effect on those who don't have the capital or credit to outright own their home barring largly outmoded boarding house style rentals. That property tax would be passed on to the renters.
  - macawfish 7y ago
    More likely housing prices would drop as supply increased from landlords dumping houses that were no longer tenable to rent out. Especially if that very same tax were used to fund first time homebuyer resources.
ninkendo 7y ago
Couldn’t you just tax based on a percentage of the year a house sits vacant?
- ethanbond 7y ago
  Even better, just aggressively tax owners based on the land value. This requires them to either eat high costs for their speculation, or use it for income-producing purposes (someplace to live or someplace to work).
  - sumedh 7y ago
    > just aggressively tax owners based on the land value. What about old people who bought the house long time back when it was cheap but dont have good source of income to pay the inflated tax?
    - larsiusprime 7y ago
      High enough land value tax, consistently applied, will make the land cheaper and affordable to said old couple, because it neutralizes the phenomenon that land continuously increases in value as long as the population keeps growing.
    - bradleyjg 7y ago
      What about the old people who didn't buy a house a long time back and now face high rents? Why is it always a selective group of old people we are supposed to carefully design policy to perfectly accommodate?
    - wffurr 7y ago
      Then they can cash out, realize their gains, buy a modest bungalow, and live out their golden years in style. Seems fine.
      - jrd259 7y ago
        That "modest bungalow" might be 50 kilometers away. These "old folks" lose their entire local social network, and perhaps have to buy a car.
bparsons 7y ago
I live in Vancouver, and the vacancy and foreign ownership taxes have moderately improved the rental situation. It has also just encouraged the worst types of buyers to move onto other jurisdictions. To be effective, they probably need to have the tax rates on an elevator until the market corrects though.
fredophile 7y ago
I quickly read the second link you provided and didn't see anything backing up your claim about landlords jacking up rents but I could have missed it. It's also worth noting that there are laws that prevent large rent increases in Vancouver. http://www.housing.gov.bc.ca/rtb/WebTools/RentIncrease.html http://www.housing.gov.bc.ca/rtb/WebTools/RentIncrease.html
- ficklepickle 7y ago
  Rents can only increase 4% a year in BC. So a landlord would have to evict the tenant and find a new victim to raise it higher than that.
ttul 7y ago
A better variant was proposed by an economist at UBC (Tom Davidoff). There would be a high property tax on ALL properties, which you could reduce by the amount of income tax you actually pay in the province. Whether the property is vacant or not, the tax must be paid. But if you actually pay taxes for working here, it’s cool.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Is this a good description of it? https://www.vancourier.com/real-estate/ubc-professor-proposes-innovative-property-tax-system-to-help-housing-affordability-1.23520237 https://www.vancourier.com/real-estate/ubc-professor-propose... (And if not, could you post a better link?)
- internet_user 7y ago
  Wouldn't it have to be huge to make a difference? A large investment property would probably cost several tens of thousands of dollars in property tax per year? Not many residents probably pay that much income tax, what do you do with those?
  - ttul 7y ago
    Residents pay local income tax and thus aren’t subject to the high property tax. This tax targets offshore residents, shell companies, etc.
    - eps 7y ago
      What would prevent Chinese investors from temporarily assigning their Vancouver portfolio to some local proxies?
- refurb 7y ago
  Hmmm.... So the wealthier you are, the more income tax you pay, so the lower your property taxes are? So this would benefit the wealthiest?
  - 7y ago
mcv 7y ago
Dramatic rent increases while someone is living there should be illegal. It's basically leveraging vendor lock-in.
chaz6 7y ago
In the UK we have council tax which is a fee to local government paid monthly for services like road maintenance and waste disposal. In recent years the majority of councils have started charging double the rate on properties that are empty, even for just one month. I hope this will start to balance the disparity between empty houses and the number of homeless people.

scottlegrand2 7y ago

And if we started treating behavior like this as equivalent to the search for bug bounties, we could iteratively patch the law until it is no longer cost-effective to search for them.

DevX101 7y ago
Unlike software, legal bugs are often by design.
- jka 7y ago
  Somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously: I wish that laws and changes to them were organized and published like repos and pull requests on github. It'd be such a lead forward in transparency if 'bugs' (loopholes), authors, and proposed changes were out in the open -- and the history and reasoning behind them equally public. In theory I think this is the way many countries legal systems already work: the case law and regulations are technically public. But it's generally only accessible (in both the sense of retrieval, and also in the sense of understanding the language) to subject experts.
  - sk0g 7y ago
    Software bugs and proposed changes _are_ accessible only to subject experts, or people keen enough wrt. software to be of above average technological competence. The only difference is, were the subject matter experts in the domain where GitHub and the likes rule. At least where I live, court records are accessible to the lay person (after clearing some hurdles). Will anyone look at them aside from lawyers and law students? Probably not... Greater transparency in lawmaking and governance is always a good thing, though, and most government's don't achieve it to any great extent.
- distantaidenn 7y ago
  This. I was working with a startup and on my first day onsite, I was sat next to the company lawyer. He told me he had just finished up a contract that was riddled with landmines. He seemed so proud of himself. At a later point when renegotiating, I was given one of these dangerous contracts to sign. When I brought to light my concerns, said lawyer set up a face to face with me. His first words were, "If you weren't an engineer, you would have made a good lawyer." Boggles the mind.

nickthemagicman 7y ago

Just jack up property tax for every home beyond the first one owns. That includes corporations.

kasey_junk 7y ago
Most landlords already setup a corporation per building for asset protection reasons.
- Retric 7y ago
  Charging corporations a significantly increased rate on single family homes is equally effective.
macawfish 7y ago
I agree, and for out of town landlords as well
Nasrudith 7y ago
That would have a very regressive effect on those who don't have the capital or credit to outright own their home barring largly outmoded boarding house style rentals. That property tax would be passed on to the renters.
- macawfish 7y ago
  More likely housing prices would drop as supply increased from landlords dumping houses that were no longer tenable to rent out. Especially if that very same tax were used to fund first time homebuyer resources.

ninkendo 7y ago

Couldn’t you just tax based on a percentage of the year a house sits vacant?

ethanbond 7y ago
Even better, just aggressively tax owners based on the land value. This requires them to either eat high costs for their speculation, or use it for income-producing purposes (someplace to live or someplace to work).
- sumedh 7y ago
  > just aggressively tax owners based on the land value. What about old people who bought the house long time back when it was cheap but dont have good source of income to pay the inflated tax?
  - larsiusprime 7y ago
    High enough land value tax, consistently applied, will make the land cheaper and affordable to said old couple, because it neutralizes the phenomenon that land continuously increases in value as long as the population keeps growing.
  - bradleyjg 7y ago
    What about the old people who didn't buy a house a long time back and now face high rents? Why is it always a selective group of old people we are supposed to carefully design policy to perfectly accommodate?
  - wffurr 7y ago
    Then they can cash out, realize their gains, buy a modest bungalow, and live out their golden years in style. Seems fine.
    - jrd259 7y ago
      That "modest bungalow" might be 50 kilometers away. These "old folks" lose their entire local social network, and perhaps have to buy a car.

bparsons 7y ago

I live in Vancouver, and the vacancy and foreign ownership taxes have moderately improved the rental situation. It has also just encouraged the worst types of buyers to move onto other jurisdictions. To be effective, they probably need to have the tax rates on an elevator until the market corrects though.

fredophile 7y ago

I quickly read the second link you provided and didn't see anything backing up your claim about landlords jacking up rents but I could have missed it. It's also worth noting that there are laws that prevent large rent increases in Vancouver. http://www.housing.gov.bc.ca/rtb/WebTools/RentIncrease.html http://www.housing.gov.bc.ca/rtb/WebTools/RentIncrease.html

ficklepickle 7y ago
Rents can only increase 4% a year in BC. So a landlord would have to evict the tenant and find a new victim to raise it higher than that.

ttul 7y ago

A better variant was proposed by an economist at UBC (Tom Davidoff). There would be a high property tax on ALL properties, which you could reduce by the amount of income tax you actually pay in the province. Whether the property is vacant or not, the tax must be paid. But if you actually pay taxes for working here, it’s cool.

dredmorbius 7y ago
Is this a good description of it? https://www.vancourier.com/real-estate/ubc-professor-proposes-innovative-property-tax-system-to-help-housing-affordability-1.23520237 https://www.vancourier.com/real-estate/ubc-professor-propose... (And if not, could you post a better link?)
internet_user 7y ago
Wouldn't it have to be huge to make a difference? A large investment property would probably cost several tens of thousands of dollars in property tax per year? Not many residents probably pay that much income tax, what do you do with those?
- ttul 7y ago
  Residents pay local income tax and thus aren’t subject to the high property tax. This tax targets offshore residents, shell companies, etc.
  - eps 7y ago
    What would prevent Chinese investors from temporarily assigning their Vancouver portfolio to some local proxies?
refurb 7y ago
Hmmm.... So the wealthier you are, the more income tax you pay, so the lower your property taxes are? So this would benefit the wealthiest?
- 7y ago

mcv 7y ago

Dramatic rent increases while someone is living there should be illegal. It's basically leveraging vendor lock-in.

chaz6 7y ago

In the UK we have council tax which is a fee to local government paid monthly for services like road maintenance and waste disposal. In recent years the majority of councils have started charging double the rate on properties that are empty, even for just one month. I hope this will start to balance the disparity between empty houses and the number of homeless people.