7 ms·

The "hey guys" issue bothers me. "Guys" is gender inclusive already. Defined as "people of either sex." [1] I don't mind saying "ya'll", but policing the verna

The "hey guys" issue bothers me. "Guys" is gender inclusive already. Defined as "people of either sex." [1] I don't mind saying "ya'll", but policing the vernacular of an individual based on their sexual organs is fairly concerning. [1] https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/guy https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/guy

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
“Guys” is gender neutral in most of the English speaking world except for some parts of the USA, where it is considered exclusively masculine. Edit: here is a photo that describes where it is used or not: https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_group_of_two_or_more_people_65280.jpg https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_gr...
- deleted 7y ago
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- nilkn 7y ago
  What region are you referring to? I’ve lived in the US my whole life and have never encountered an area where “you guys” could not be used in a gender neutral manner.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    FWIW, I'm an American woman who thinks "guys" is masculine. I don't generally hassle people about such things, but I'm pretty darn sure there are people who are not me who think it is masculine and would hassle people about it.
    - nilkn 7y ago
      “You guys”, not “guys”. If you still think that can only refer to men, that’s certainly the first time I’ve heard an American say that. Indeed, I hear this phrase from women as much as I do from men, to address audiences of any gender makeup. And I’m in the southern US.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        Where I come from, the correct term would be "y'all" or "all y'all" which I have also seen arguments online about the correct usage and meaning. I used to routinely use y'all online in a forum where I was intentionally emphasizing my Southern identity to more clearly distinguish between singular "you" and plural "you." I've had a class in linguistics. I grew up in a bilingual home. I'm not uninformed about the fact that local colloquialisms exist, language is alive and evolving. I think of "guys" and "you guys" as both masculine. I don't generally hassle people about such things. Evidence that I don't generally hassle people about such things: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/it-seems-my-silence-was-heard.html?m=1 https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/it-seems-my-sile...
        nilkn 7y ago
        I’m not making any claims about whether you generally hassle anyone so I don’t need any evidence about that in either direction. Either way, you are the first person I’ve talked to who doesn’t think “you guys” can refer to an audience of multiple genders. That certainly contradicts the overwhelming majority of usages of the phrase I’ve seen in my life.
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I'm aware there are people that use it that way. I've seen this discussion on the internet before. I am unlikely to do so, in part because of negative experiences from a very toxic forum where I was treated like absolute shit. Please note that I'm backing up someone else's claim about this being a phenomenon. I'm telling you they aren't making that up. There are Americans who view that as a masculine term. I'm actual living proof this is not a bullshit claim. Sorry you are having such a big problem accepting that.
        nilkn 7y ago
        It’s not that there are some people who use it “that way.” It’s the standard usage: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_guys https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_guys No need to make this personal with your last sentence.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    The Deep South? They use gals as a replacement. It is gender neutral in much of the west where I live now, though a few will still take offense.
    - nilkn 7y ago
      “You guys” can certainly be used in a gender-neutral way in the southern US. That’s where I live and I hear that all the time.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Do you mean the mid south, west south or Deep South? There could be a huge difference between Texas, Atlanta, and Mississippi. The caps on Deep South isn’t an iOS auto correct error. I lived in Mississippi for four years and they definitely took offense in the small town I was living in. The size of the community might also be relevant. I’m not an ethnolinguist, so can’t really comment on why it is or isn’t.
        nilkn 7y ago
        I have personal experience with Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Florida.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_group_of_two_or_more_people_65280.jpg https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_gr... Take the map for what its worth, I guess. It doesn’t comment on what people think about the word itself, just how they don’t use it very much.
        nilkn 7y ago
        I'd absolutely buy that there are regional variations in how common those phrases are. The map appears to be spot on in that sense based on my own experience. I'm just wondering if there are areas where "you guys" can't be used to refer to arbitrary-gender-makeup groups (as opposed to areas where it's just less common than other phrases accomplishing the same purpose). I haven't personally encountered such an area, but I accept and acknowledge that you have. I do think this topic is complicated by the ease of conflating current usage (how is "you guys" used today?) with ideal usage (is this really a phrase whose usage we want to promote and accept in the future?). I personally have no problem making an effort to phase out "you guys." It's not something I feel attached to, and I can see that it carries unnecessary baggage.
- deleted 7y ago
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vr46 7y ago
Just go up to a married heterosexual man and ask, "So tell me about the guy you married?" And see how much sense that makes. "Guy" and "guys" as a catch-all is outmoded. As someone said, the plural reinforces the male-as-default.
- RandomInteger4 7y ago
  "Guy" and "guys" are not the same, at all. The s appended to the end, along with the context, drastically changes the semantic meaning of the word. This is how language works. Even an unchanged word can have totally different meanings depending on the context. You argument here is a strawman that ignores context to the point of pedantic absurdity.
  - hug 7y ago
    > The s appended to the end, along with the context, drastically changes the semantic meaning of the word. Yes, words have meaning that change depending on context. That's how English works. It's a bit like how "man" can be used to mean the entirety of the human race, but "man" is in no way a gender neutral term. To the same end, "guy" is considered by some to be quite gendered, and "guys" is often not, but even with the plural, asking a heterosexual man "how many guys have you slept with?", is often perceived very differently to asking "when did you guys get married?" The problem here is that the first question, sans context, is going to be interpreted by a number of people to be exclusively male, and essentially never interpreted as exclusively female. This isn't pedantry, it's just the way the word is perceived.
    - manigandham 7y ago
      Except "guys" and "you guys" is not the same. The latter is neutral, the former isn't.
      - hug 7y ago
        It’s not neutral, it’s gendered and used as a neutral. You admitted, yourself, that the word itself it gendered. The fact that it is default-male and used as neutral is the entire argument.
zozbot234 7y ago
The euphemism treadmill moves quickly. Just get with the times, folks.
dcole2929 7y ago
I agree, and don't necessarily see anything wrong with the use of 'hey guys', but at the end of the day it's a pretty mild request to take a stand on. I can't imagine being that married to a greeting that I'd refuse to consider trying to use other phrases. Also just because it's generally been a non-gendered term doesn't mean prevailing opinion hasn't changed. There is a lot of talk around changing the norms in which masculine terms are considered the default. Both in english speaking languages and others (e.g. See LatinX)
- vanniv 7y ago
  At some point, the 7,000th time you're attacked for something stupid, you just tell the asshats who are attacking you to get fucked, rather than making yet-another accommodation for the loud-mouthed losers
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22028883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22028883.
klyrs 7y ago
Thought experiment: A survey of straight men. They're asked two questions in a randomized order. A. "Is 'guys' gender neutral?" and B. "How many guys have you slept with?" Care to make a wager on how often the (B,A) group will agree with you?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

“Guys” is gender neutral in most of the English speaking world except for some parts of the USA, where it is considered exclusively masculine. Edit: here is a photo that describes where it is used or not: https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_group_of_two_or_more_people_65280.jpg https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_gr...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nilkn 7y ago
What region are you referring to? I’ve lived in the US my whole life and have never encountered an area where “you guys” could not be used in a gender neutral manner.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  FWIW, I'm an American woman who thinks "guys" is masculine. I don't generally hassle people about such things, but I'm pretty darn sure there are people who are not me who think it is masculine and would hassle people about it.
  - nilkn 7y ago
    “You guys”, not “guys”. If you still think that can only refer to men, that’s certainly the first time I’ve heard an American say that. Indeed, I hear this phrase from women as much as I do from men, to address audiences of any gender makeup. And I’m in the southern US.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      Where I come from, the correct term would be "y'all" or "all y'all" which I have also seen arguments online about the correct usage and meaning. I used to routinely use y'all online in a forum where I was intentionally emphasizing my Southern identity to more clearly distinguish between singular "you" and plural "you." I've had a class in linguistics. I grew up in a bilingual home. I'm not uninformed about the fact that local colloquialisms exist, language is alive and evolving. I think of "guys" and "you guys" as both masculine. I don't generally hassle people about such things. Evidence that I don't generally hassle people about such things: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/it-seems-my-silence-was-heard.html?m=1 https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/it-seems-my-sile...
      - nilkn 7y ago
        I’m not making any claims about whether you generally hassle anyone so I don’t need any evidence about that in either direction. Either way, you are the first person I’ve talked to who doesn’t think “you guys” can refer to an audience of multiple genders. That certainly contradicts the overwhelming majority of usages of the phrase I’ve seen in my life.
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I'm aware there are people that use it that way. I've seen this discussion on the internet before. I am unlikely to do so, in part because of negative experiences from a very toxic forum where I was treated like absolute shit. Please note that I'm backing up someone else's claim about this being a phenomenon. I'm telling you they aren't making that up. There are Americans who view that as a masculine term. I'm actual living proof this is not a bullshit claim. Sorry you are having such a big problem accepting that.
        nilkn 7y ago
        It’s not that there are some people who use it “that way.” It’s the standard usage: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_guys https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_guys No need to make this personal with your last sentence.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  The Deep South? They use gals as a replacement. It is gender neutral in much of the west where I live now, though a few will still take offense.
  - nilkn 7y ago
    “You guys” can certainly be used in a gender-neutral way in the southern US. That’s where I live and I hear that all the time.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Do you mean the mid south, west south or Deep South? There could be a huge difference between Texas, Atlanta, and Mississippi. The caps on Deep South isn’t an iOS auto correct error. I lived in Mississippi for four years and they definitely took offense in the small town I was living in. The size of the community might also be relevant. I’m not an ethnolinguist, so can’t really comment on why it is or isn’t.
      - nilkn 7y ago
        I have personal experience with Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Florida.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_group_of_two_or_more_people_65280.jpg https://cdn.mapmania.org/original/how_americans_address_a_gr... Take the map for what its worth, I guess. It doesn’t comment on what people think about the word itself, just how they don’t use it very much.
        nilkn 7y ago
        I'd absolutely buy that there are regional variations in how common those phrases are. The map appears to be spot on in that sense based on my own experience. I'm just wondering if there are areas where "you guys" can't be used to refer to arbitrary-gender-makeup groups (as opposed to areas where it's just less common than other phrases accomplishing the same purpose). I haven't personally encountered such an area, but I accept and acknowledge that you have. I do think this topic is complicated by the ease of conflating current usage (how is "you guys" used today?) with ideal usage (is this really a phrase whose usage we want to promote and accept in the future?). I personally have no problem making an effort to phase out "you guys." It's not something I feel attached to, and I can see that it carries unnecessary baggage.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

vr46 7y ago

Just go up to a married heterosexual man and ask, "So tell me about the guy you married?" And see how much sense that makes. "Guy" and "guys" as a catch-all is outmoded. As someone said, the plural reinforces the male-as-default.

RandomInteger4 7y ago
"Guy" and "guys" are not the same, at all. The s appended to the end, along with the context, drastically changes the semantic meaning of the word. This is how language works. Even an unchanged word can have totally different meanings depending on the context. You argument here is a strawman that ignores context to the point of pedantic absurdity.
- hug 7y ago
  > The s appended to the end, along with the context, drastically changes the semantic meaning of the word. Yes, words have meaning that change depending on context. That's how English works. It's a bit like how "man" can be used to mean the entirety of the human race, but "man" is in no way a gender neutral term. To the same end, "guy" is considered by some to be quite gendered, and "guys" is often not, but even with the plural, asking a heterosexual man "how many guys have you slept with?", is often perceived very differently to asking "when did you guys get married?" The problem here is that the first question, sans context, is going to be interpreted by a number of people to be exclusively male, and essentially never interpreted as exclusively female. This isn't pedantry, it's just the way the word is perceived.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    Except "guys" and "you guys" is not the same. The latter is neutral, the former isn't.
    - hug 7y ago
      It’s not neutral, it’s gendered and used as a neutral. You admitted, yourself, that the word itself it gendered. The fact that it is default-male and used as neutral is the entire argument.

zozbot234 7y ago

The euphemism treadmill moves quickly. Just get with the times, folks.

dcole2929 7y ago

I agree, and don't necessarily see anything wrong with the use of 'hey guys', but at the end of the day it's a pretty mild request to take a stand on. I can't imagine being that married to a greeting that I'd refuse to consider trying to use other phrases. Also just because it's generally been a non-gendered term doesn't mean prevailing opinion hasn't changed. There is a lot of talk around changing the norms in which masculine terms are considered the default. Both in english speaking languages and others (e.g. See LatinX)

vanniv 7y ago
At some point, the 7,000th time you're attacked for something stupid, you just tell the asshats who are attacking you to get fucked, rather than making yet-another accommodation for the loud-mouthed losers

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22028883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22028883.

klyrs 7y ago

Thought experiment: A survey of straight men. They're asked two questions in a randomized order. A. "Is 'guys' gender neutral?" and B. "How many guys have you slept with?" Care to make a wager on how often the (B,A) group will agree with you?