3 ms·

No. Tolerating intolerance isn’t the same as tolerance.

lopmotr 7y ago
It's easy to label any idea you disagree with as "intolerant" then use that Popper quote as an excuse to be intolerant of it and the people who hold it.
zeta0134 7y ago
This is an interesting, if contradictory stance to take. I should probably downvote it, but I see an opportunity for a philosophical discussion, so here we go anyway. I am a gay man. I grew up Christian, but ended up rejecting the Christian faith initially due to incompatibilities with my church and my sexuality. Over time it became more ideological (I dislike binary moral systems) but that's irrelevant. In my experience, my original church (certainly not all of Christianity) chose to reject people of my orientation. They express intolerance to the highest degree. So, as a gay man, should I respond in turn and completely cut all Christians out of my life, declaring them all intolerant? Of course not. You see, Christianity actually preaches tolerance. Not all Christians follow this to the same degree, but Christians are taught to love their neighbors, even the gentiles, and especially the tax collectors, prostitutes, and folks that the rest of society would choose to reject on principal. Even if I disagree with the teaching as a whole, there's a ton of good moral lessons to be had within that book. It is generally useful as a means of teaching a system of right and wrong, through parables and stories, even if some of its teachings disagree with my personal world view. I think it's dangerous to reject other people entirely just because you choose to reject one of their beliefs. We may find it easy to label people and sort them into boxes, but it's easy to lose track of the humanity underneath those labels. So, yes, I will choose to tolerate people whose beliefs I strongly disagree with, because that one belief does not solely define them as a person. Even if we fundamentally disagree on something as core to my being as who I choose to love, we can still have an interesting discussion and gain perspective through that discourse. I value that discourse far too much to reject any person on the misguided notion that they are somehow "wrong" or "flawed." They are simply different. And if I want them to tolerate me, the very least I can do is agree to tolerate them in return, whether we like each other or not.
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  > hould I respond in turn and completely cut all Christians out of my life, declaring them all intolerant? You've set up a straw man. Identifying as Christian does not make someone intolerant. Many people who identify as Christian are intolerant of people who identify as gay. Discrimination against the first group due to the actions of the second is unfair. But refusing to engage with the second group is completely reasonable. Otherwise you allow intolerance toward gay people to be legitimized. That can lead to an erosion of rights. It's literally dangerous in the long term.
  - zeta0134 7y ago
    > You've set up a straw man. Hrm... I suppose I have. The parent appears to be using a quote (from Karl Popper) that I've not heard before, so clearly I misread the intended nuance. Now that I'm reading through the philosophical context of that quote, I can see that I overreacted. Thanks for the clarification; I now have much food for thought to chew on.
- downerending 7y ago
  The attitude you espouse here, and which I encountered from several gay men while growing up in a pretty anti-gay area, is one of the main reasons I've been an advocate for gay marriage from a time before most here were born. Being intolerant might feel good, but it will never win the day.

It's easy to label any idea you disagree with as "intolerant" then use that Popper quote as an excuse to be intolerant of it and the people who hold it.

zeta0134 7y ago

This is an interesting, if contradictory stance to take. I should probably downvote it, but I see an opportunity for a philosophical discussion, so here we go anyway. I am a gay man. I grew up Christian, but ended up rejecting the Christian faith initially due to incompatibilities with my church and my sexuality. Over time it became more ideological (I dislike binary moral systems) but that's irrelevant. In my experience, my original church (certainly not all of Christianity) chose to reject people of my orientation. They express intolerance to the highest degree. So, as a gay man, should I respond in turn and completely cut all Christians out of my life, declaring them all intolerant? Of course not. You see, Christianity actually preaches tolerance. Not all Christians follow this to the same degree, but Christians are taught to love their neighbors, even the gentiles, and especially the tax collectors, prostitutes, and folks that the rest of society would choose to reject on principal. Even if I disagree with the teaching as a whole, there's a ton of good moral lessons to be had within that book. It is generally useful as a means of teaching a system of right and wrong, through parables and stories, even if some of its teachings disagree with my personal world view. I think it's dangerous to reject other people entirely just because you choose to reject one of their beliefs. We may find it easy to label people and sort them into boxes, but it's easy to lose track of the humanity underneath those labels. So, yes, I will choose to tolerate people whose beliefs I strongly disagree with, because that one belief does not solely define them as a person. Even if we fundamentally disagree on something as core to my being as who I choose to love, we can still have an interesting discussion and gain perspective through that discourse. I value that discourse far too much to reject any person on the misguided notion that they are somehow "wrong" or "flawed." They are simply different. And if I want them to tolerate me, the very least I can do is agree to tolerate them in return, whether we like each other or not.

joshuamorton 7y ago
> hould I respond in turn and completely cut all Christians out of my life, declaring them all intolerant? You've set up a straw man. Identifying as Christian does not make someone intolerant. Many people who identify as Christian are intolerant of people who identify as gay. Discrimination against the first group due to the actions of the second is unfair. But refusing to engage with the second group is completely reasonable. Otherwise you allow intolerance toward gay people to be legitimized. That can lead to an erosion of rights. It's literally dangerous in the long term.
- zeta0134 7y ago
  > You've set up a straw man. Hrm... I suppose I have. The parent appears to be using a quote (from Karl Popper) that I've not heard before, so clearly I misread the intended nuance. Now that I'm reading through the philosophical context of that quote, I can see that I overreacted. Thanks for the clarification; I now have much food for thought to chew on.
downerending 7y ago
The attitude you espouse here, and which I encountered from several gay men while growing up in a pretty anti-gay area, is one of the main reasons I've been an advocate for gay marriage from a time before most here were born. Being intolerant might feel good, but it will never win the day.