8 ms·

Incels: America’s Newest Domestic Terrorism Threat

42 points by smacktoward 7y ago

mdni007 7y ago
Prostitution needs to be legal
- wyldfire 7y ago
  Sure, but that would not solve this problem. It's an unhealthy community.
  - brighton36 7y ago
    I think it would uncelibate them, at least.
    - setpatchaddress 7y ago
      It would not — it’s not how the mindset works
    - aiphex 7y ago
      Celibacy is just one of their many problems. And it's really more a consequence of their other problems, mainly emotional immaturity and anti-social behavior. Also I don't think sex workers should have to deal with incels. Sex workers are people too, and they deserve to be shown a basic amount of respect by their clients, just like the rest of us.
      - brigandish 7y ago
        Isn't it up to sex workers who they wish to deal with? I'm not sure why you're assuming that incels wouldn't show them respect, given a legal context (because the whole point of making it legal is that it protects sex workers better and implies respect).
        wpietri 7y ago
        Because incel culture oozes with misogyny. Look at who they've literally canonized, for example: https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815 https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-c...
    - wyldfire 7y ago
      It wouldn't necessarily. Is the only thing keeping them from using prostitutes the fact that it's illegal? But say it did: would it reduce their propensity to violence?
    - Buldak 7y ago
      I'm not sure that's really their problem. My impression that is that incels are really aggrieved about lack of status, not lack of sex. Getting sex by paying for it doesn't solve that.
      - true_religion 7y ago
        It’s kind of how Japan solves the situation. Compensated dating let’s professional men and women simply have someone to hangout with, as well as have sex with.
    - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
      They are not very approving of prostitution, so that is unlikely. Don't take the name they have selected for themselves at face value.
- dx87 7y ago
  It's not that simple. Legalizing prostitution leads to increased human trafficking because the demand exceeds the supply. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm
  - jasonjayr 7y ago
    Legalize and regulate. Don't let it be a free for all.
- arthurcolle 7y ago
  Once the majority of boomers start to shuffle off their mortal coils, I suspect many social issues that are perceived as "divisive" at present will immediately become accepted, and things like this will just come to pass. Drug legalization, sex work, perhaps gambling & sports betting, etc. However, I could see holdouts if some subsegment of the post-boomer generations continue to hold attitudes that "vice industries" are immoral, which is fair. I imagine that the later generations will just adopt an "I don't care, let people do what they want" attitude.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    I'm guessing you're pretty young, late twenties at the latest.
    - arthurcolle 7y ago
      You're absolutely right, I'm 27 - turning 28 in February. Do you care to comment on what gave you this impression, and, more specifically, why you feel it has any relevance on what I wrote? I understand that I made a pretty broad statement, but anecdotally, there are so many different instances of boomers denigrating choices of later generations across many different buckets of choices - social, technological, moral, cultural, political, psycho-sexual; and as I've lived my life, we've seen rapid chances in societal behaviors that just make me feel that as every successive generation comes into existence, you just get that bit-flip for that dimension of the 'collective consciousness' (not woo-woo collective consciousness, but just the aggregated set of behaviors and interactions manifested by the people that exist today, that came to pass based on the pre-existing cc from their parents and those that influenced them, etc). Psychologically, it's funny, because there is this commonly cited concept of 'teenage/adolescent rebellion' where, despite the love and adoration you feel for your parents, there develops a kind of rift in response to the rules imposed vs. what you immediately want to do/desire to explore the world without the parental control structure that was imposed previously. Perhaps the generational shifts that are seen are a consequence of this - maybe not, I'm just thinking out loud here. But yeah it is an interesting topic. Care to comment further on what gave you this impression? I'm intrigued.
- The_rationalist 7y ago
  Honestly, technologies like https://www.fleshlight.com/ https://www.fleshlight.com/ have mostly obsoleted prostitution. Being far cheaper and more pleasurable. But this is not an alternative for affection. I do believe there is a big market for renting Affection. There is also a market for renting optimal friendships.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    I'm not sure why this is getting downvoted. The incels claim their problem is not getting any. But we live in a golden age for porn and sex toys. They can get off if they want. What they instead want is either companionship and affection (which they clearly don't have or they wouldn't be hanging around in incel forums) or having a woman as quasi-property to serve them and enhance their social standing (the status of most women in quite a lot of history). There are reasons they can't get those things, of course. But rather than face them, they've built up a toxic shared ideology to explain why it is never their fault. They're not the only group that has done this, [1] but they're definitely one of the most dangerous. [1] For a fascinating look at what abusive parents tell themselves when their children have finally had enough, I recommend this article series on "Estranged Parent" forums: http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html
    - memling 7y ago
      > The incels claim their problem is not getting any. But we live in a golden age for porn and sex toys. They can get off if they want. This is why legalizing sex work and pornography is no solution and indeed may very well worsen the problem. Turning women into objects to be bought and/or rented, consumed, and owned doesn't help matters. (Of course sex work and pornography are not the only offenders in this regard: I don't suppose most of us would sanction religious ownership of women. It's a different face on the same problem.)
- e12e 7y ago
  Buying a friend isn't the same as making a friend.
  - memling 7y ago
    and playmates are not playthings
- wpietri 7y ago
  True, but that's a wrong answer here. Their problem isn't lack of orgasm; it's maladaptation and misogyny. There's no reason sex workers should have to deal with these guys either.
snagglegaggle 7y ago
At the end the article foists everything upon mental health treatment. I see no evidence that that will be enough. What if your life just sucks?[1] A therapist can't snap their fingers and get you more money. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Life_Syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Life_Syndrome
- wyldfire 7y ago
  Life sucks ergo violence? No, therapy can help you cope.
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    My wants are inconvenient so roll over and die quietly? Doesn't sound attractive.
- acollins1331 7y ago
  Right. I see all the stuff about mental health and getting people "help", but when it comes to the at risk type people I know and have known I seriously doubt some therapy would do much good. Some problems are very real and not imagined. They might be able to help you mask or deal with your anger/hate but treating the symptoms will only get you so far.
- coliveira 7y ago
  The problem is exactly that psychological therapy was replaced by social networks. Instead of helping each other, they're incentivizing their criminal urges.
- wpietri 7y ago
  If your life circumstances sucks, good mental health still means you won't blame it on women and/or do something horrifically violent to people unrelated to the causes of your problems. Instead, you'll turn toward fixing the problems. I will also note that the perception of having enough money is not very closely related to the amount of money you have. I have known people who are happy living on quite modest salaries, and people who feel like they're barely getting by on $500k/year. That's something therapists (and financial advisors) can definitely help with.
corporateslave5 7y ago
Online dating has made it so basically all of the women are sleeping with the top 10% of men. This is the new normal. Edit. This is also largely the view of incels. Forums where they talk about why they can’t get girls. So everyone down voting my post can go stick their heads in the sand. Adding one more thing. Anyone that hangs out with an extremely tall and attractive guy will be shocked how easy it is for them. It’s almost like living in a different reality. Dating and sex are extremely opaque. You need to run in different circles to understand what’s going on
- ivraatiems 7y ago
  You're gonna need to provide some data on that, because that sounds like absolute nonsense (potentially mixed with some misogynistic assumptions about how women choose partners) to me.
  - corporateslave5 7y ago
    It’s not misogynistic if it’s true. The dating scene is absolutely brutal for a lot men, atleast until they can date women in their late twenties. The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all
    - crystaldev 7y ago
      A phrase like "top 10% of men" doesn't even compute for a woman. Women have wildly different tastes in men. It's men who rate women 1-10 and who exhibit consensus in their tastes. > The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all Maybe it's you.
      - corporateslave5 7y ago
        clearly there’s an incel problem now that didn’t exist in the past. The problem is the internet. These guys not getting laid know why they aren’t getting laid. Go ahead and try and stick your head in the sand
orf 7y ago
You can view some of the more... repostable incel content here: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/top/?sort=top&t=month https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/top/?sort=top&t=month Seems like this is the natural progression of the "kneckbeard" stereotype, when mixed with more extreme online content and teenage sexual angst. Not sure how you can combat this kind of ideology.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  From the mods on a post: > Comments are locked because I got 10 reports of seperate people calling each other “fags” come on guys. We aren’t 12 anymore be an adult and stop using homophobic insults. Everyone who used a homophobic slur was banned for 30 days. Stop that. Wow. Apparently the moderation team is pretty important in deciding the path a sub goes down.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    Or there's a sizable minority attached to this subject with legitimate concerns but an opinion which runs very counter to what is socially acceptable on Reddit. If you start paying attention, you can already tell which articles on Reddit are likely to be locked for this reason. Reddit is practically designed to amplify dogma into an echo chamber - that goes for how power among mods and admins is distributed and how the voting algorithm determines comment ordering and visibility. Incels are the new nerds. They're safe targets for ridicule, even though their lot ultimately sucks for reasons not entirely within their control. Telling someone who has trouble dating to learn to date is like telling a socially awkward, uncoordinated teenager to just "learn to play sports".
    - pmoriarty 7y ago
      Incels aren't simply people who have trouble dating. Most people who have trouble dating don't turn in to bitter, hateful trolls who glorify in violence against the people they desire.
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
There are a lot of troubled boys in this world growing up to be troubled men. We’re passing through a season of men vilification. Changing this ideology as a society is probably a good first step to creating the support programs we need to help turn things around.
joaomacp 7y ago
This article treats the 'incel' phenomenon as a security threat, just like ISIS and Al Qaeda, instead of looking at it as a social problem and trying to solve it. Doing this is the same as declaring 'war on drugs' instead of treating it as a medical condition, and trying to fix addiction problems by medical campaigns. I think the USA do this because they have a weak state, that can't really steer people's social and mental health. I think the ideal approach would be to look at how we can improve society, in order for 'incels' to stop existing. Technology plays a big part as culprit. Speaking from my experience, watching YouTube / Instagram / etc. fools my brain into thinking I have a social life, and makes real social interactions feel harder, as they're messier. It makes me socially anxious, because I almost never need to practice real-life interactions. I think the above happens to many young men today, and we should look at it as a society and find / promote solutions.
kerkeslager 7y ago
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" needs an update to the modern age. It's easy to get disgusted and frustrated with "incels", as they are constantly saying reprehensible things. But ostracizing them from society doesn't fix them, it just results in worse problems like this. I think we need to focus on rehabilitating incels so they can rejoin society as healthy members, rather than ostracizing them. At a more fundamental level, I think that our culture focuses too much on blame. Identifying the person who caused the problem doesn't solve the problem. We should focus on fixing the problem, not on blame. Yes, incels' suffering is mostly self-inflicted, but they are still suffering, and if we don't address that suffering, the suffering spreads. Perhaps the answer is to start treating "incel-ism" as a disease. I don't know if the disease model really applies here, but I think it's at least worth investigating. There's a balance to be had here: we need to be compassionate, but not naive. Some incels can't be in society because they are a danger to society, and our current ability to treat their suffering has limitations.
- aiphex 7y ago
  I believe most good psychologists have the ability to treat incels. It comes down to the incel wanting it and having access to it. Unfortunately our society doesn't offer adequate mental health care to those in need but who are lacking in resources. Whether it's incels, drug addicts, or you name it, the answer is that we need to do a better job of taking care of each other. Unfortunately we have the greedy ultra rich on top who keep siphoning off the fruits of our labour and leaving everyone else to fight over the scraps. We could do better.
- pizza234 7y ago
  > Perhaps the answer is to start treating "incel-ism" as a disease. There is already! Although the specific incel issue is not classified in psychology (AFAIK), a person with such severe symptoms can be classified as suffering from relationship and/or social anxiety disorders. I think that the incel problem has a very specific issue in the fact that it's culturally ostracized; people who suffer from it are labeled as shy and lazy. I'm not sure from which angle the social problem (I refer to the ostracization) should be attacked. Research on this subject started in the 80s, but there has never been a (significant) following. The rational wiki has a good introduction: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com#Love-shyness_as_a_mental_condition https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com#Love-shyness_as_a.... If the condition was officially recognized, I think it would be a very good start, as probably people suffering from it would have a clear reference; right now, since there isn't any, it's very easy to fall into toxic subcultures.
eplanit 7y ago
Maybe sex robots can help with this issue?
- wpietri 7y ago
  Probably not. If they were just lonely guys looking to get off, there are already plenty of options, commercial and free. Ones that they either reject or already use.
- minimuffins 7y ago
  These kids are the spawn of a terminally deranged postmodern technocapitalist society. You can see it's contradictory historical cultural dementia in incel ideology. They have no idea where they are in history. I want a wife and a family like a postwar company man! I want a life of automated techno luxury full of endless porn and gaming! I want to own a woman like in fuedal times! Somehow I doubt adding more soulless machinery to the mix is the correct solution to capitalist alienation. But whatever, try it. Why not.
shrubble 7y ago
From the article: 'the death toll now stands at more than 50 people ' (over a few years) https://crimeresearch.org/2015/01/do-more-children-die-of-bathtub-drownings-than-of-accidental-shootings-no/ https://crimeresearch.org/2015/01/do-more-children-die-of-ba... Annual rate of 69 children each year that die from... bathtubs. Seems a bit overblown... However... Anytime you have large numbers of unmarried men, you have social problems. This holds across multiple societies and multiple cultures across millennia.
- 93po 7y ago
  It is. The whole "incel" movement is just manufactured outrage used to generate clicks
- comicjk 7y ago
  People with young children do worry about them drowning in the bath and take steps to prevent it. A better example of underfocused deaths, to contrast with the overfocus on unusual murders, would be car accidents.
- minimuffins 7y ago
  Bathtubs aren't a novel cultural formation. Bathtubs also don't kill people on purpose because of beliefs they've recently adopted. Personally I think it is reasonable that we talk more about incel killings than bathtub killings. The problem is not that incels pose an objective risk to my safety or yours but that their presence signals some kind of pretty serious systemic dysfunction. How does an ideology like that take hold on any kind of scale, is a question worth trying to answer.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    My bullshit theory is crimes have three potential 'against's' Against a person. Against a community. And against the state. Mass shootings check all three boxes hard.
- awb 7y ago
  Jordan Peterson has a quote roughly to the effect of: if you make people play a game they can't win they might flip the whole board over. Basically, people who feel powerless get angry. I think the blanket mindset is: I want X. I don't have X because of those people. Replace X and those people as needed and it covers the philosophy behind a lot of violence and division.
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allovernow 7y ago
>Although it was originally conceived as a site where lonely individuals of both sexes could meet, exchange experiences, and provide support, both the concept and its online manifestation were taken over by men complaining about their own involuntary celibacy and debating the causes behind their frustrations Because dating is asymmetric and loneliness is much more pervasive among men. It's incredibly frustrating that academics and media outright refuse to acknowledge this fact! This article is an ideologically driven, sensationalist dumpster fire.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > Because dating is asymmetric and loneliness is much more pervasive among men. It's incredibly frustrating that academics and media outright refuse to acknowledge this fact! This article is an ideologically driven, sensationalist dumpster fire. Here an article who analyzes this phenomenon by the Gini coefficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gini_coefficient&oldid=935239101 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gini_coefficient&...): https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-the-dating-economy/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-t... "On a list of 149 countries’ Gini indices provided by the CIA World Factbook, this would place the female dating economy as 75th most unequal (average—think Western Europe) and the male dating economy as the 8th most unequal (kleptocracy, apartheid, perpetual civil war—think South Africa)."
The_rationalist 7y ago
The root cause is a hard cold truth that should have far more visibility than #metoo, in an ideal world. www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201104/why-dont-women-ask-men-out-first-dates/
mnm1 7y ago
Right wing groups and Islamic terrorists have killed millions. Comparing incels to them is frankly idiotic and ridiculous. That's like saying my one server search engine can compete with Google's search infrastructure. The words "terrorism" and "terrorist" are already almost meaningless. Let's not make them completely meaningless. Not every crime is terrorism. These are not organized groups perpetrating violence for a stated purpose, but fucked up individuals randomly killing people. If this is terrorism, every shooting is terrorism and the word becomes meaningless. Worse, it normalized actual terrorism, like that perpetrated by right wing extremists, and makes that indistinguishable from other crimes.
scarface74 7y ago
Just as a reference, the entire “Intel” movement started as a positive support group before it morphed into its current state. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76h59o https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76h59o

42 points by smacktoward 7y ago

mdni007 7y ago

Prostitution needs to be legal

wyldfire 7y ago
Sure, but that would not solve this problem. It's an unhealthy community.
- brighton36 7y ago
  I think it would uncelibate them, at least.
  - setpatchaddress 7y ago
    It would not — it’s not how the mindset works
  - aiphex 7y ago
    Celibacy is just one of their many problems. And it's really more a consequence of their other problems, mainly emotional immaturity and anti-social behavior. Also I don't think sex workers should have to deal with incels. Sex workers are people too, and they deserve to be shown a basic amount of respect by their clients, just like the rest of us.
    - brigandish 7y ago
      Isn't it up to sex workers who they wish to deal with? I'm not sure why you're assuming that incels wouldn't show them respect, given a legal context (because the whole point of making it legal is that it protects sex workers better and implies respect).
      - wpietri 7y ago
        Because incel culture oozes with misogyny. Look at who they've literally canonized, for example: https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815 https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-c...
  - wyldfire 7y ago
    It wouldn't necessarily. Is the only thing keeping them from using prostitutes the fact that it's illegal? But say it did: would it reduce their propensity to violence?
  - Buldak 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's really their problem. My impression that is that incels are really aggrieved about lack of status, not lack of sex. Getting sex by paying for it doesn't solve that.
    - true_religion 7y ago
      It’s kind of how Japan solves the situation. Compensated dating let’s professional men and women simply have someone to hangout with, as well as have sex with.
  - WAHa_06x36 7y ago
    They are not very approving of prostitution, so that is unlikely. Don't take the name they have selected for themselves at face value.
dx87 7y ago
It's not that simple. Legalizing prostitution leads to increased human trafficking because the demand exceeds the supply. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm
- jasonjayr 7y ago
  Legalize and regulate. Don't let it be a free for all.
arthurcolle 7y ago
Once the majority of boomers start to shuffle off their mortal coils, I suspect many social issues that are perceived as "divisive" at present will immediately become accepted, and things like this will just come to pass. Drug legalization, sex work, perhaps gambling & sports betting, etc. However, I could see holdouts if some subsegment of the post-boomer generations continue to hold attitudes that "vice industries" are immoral, which is fair. I imagine that the later generations will just adopt an "I don't care, let people do what they want" attitude.
- ses1984 7y ago
  I'm guessing you're pretty young, late twenties at the latest.
  - arthurcolle 7y ago
    You're absolutely right, I'm 27 - turning 28 in February. Do you care to comment on what gave you this impression, and, more specifically, why you feel it has any relevance on what I wrote? I understand that I made a pretty broad statement, but anecdotally, there are so many different instances of boomers denigrating choices of later generations across many different buckets of choices - social, technological, moral, cultural, political, psycho-sexual; and as I've lived my life, we've seen rapid chances in societal behaviors that just make me feel that as every successive generation comes into existence, you just get that bit-flip for that dimension of the 'collective consciousness' (not woo-woo collective consciousness, but just the aggregated set of behaviors and interactions manifested by the people that exist today, that came to pass based on the pre-existing cc from their parents and those that influenced them, etc). Psychologically, it's funny, because there is this commonly cited concept of 'teenage/adolescent rebellion' where, despite the love and adoration you feel for your parents, there develops a kind of rift in response to the rules imposed vs. what you immediately want to do/desire to explore the world without the parental control structure that was imposed previously. Perhaps the generational shifts that are seen are a consequence of this - maybe not, I'm just thinking out loud here. But yeah it is an interesting topic. Care to comment further on what gave you this impression? I'm intrigued.
The_rationalist 7y ago
Honestly, technologies like https://www.fleshlight.com/ https://www.fleshlight.com/ have mostly obsoleted prostitution. Being far cheaper and more pleasurable. But this is not an alternative for affection. I do believe there is a big market for renting Affection. There is also a market for renting optimal friendships.
- wpietri 7y ago
  I'm not sure why this is getting downvoted. The incels claim their problem is not getting any. But we live in a golden age for porn and sex toys. They can get off if they want. What they instead want is either companionship and affection (which they clearly don't have or they wouldn't be hanging around in incel forums) or having a woman as quasi-property to serve them and enhance their social standing (the status of most women in quite a lot of history). There are reasons they can't get those things, of course. But rather than face them, they've built up a toxic shared ideology to explain why it is never their fault. They're not the only group that has done this, [1] but they're definitely one of the most dangerous. [1] For a fascinating look at what abusive parents tell themselves when their children have finally had enough, I recommend this article series on "Estranged Parent" forums: http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html
  - memling 7y ago
    > The incels claim their problem is not getting any. But we live in a golden age for porn and sex toys. They can get off if they want. This is why legalizing sex work and pornography is no solution and indeed may very well worsen the problem. Turning women into objects to be bought and/or rented, consumed, and owned doesn't help matters. (Of course sex work and pornography are not the only offenders in this regard: I don't suppose most of us would sanction religious ownership of women. It's a different face on the same problem.)
e12e 7y ago
Buying a friend isn't the same as making a friend.
- memling 7y ago
  and playmates are not playthings
wpietri 7y ago
True, but that's a wrong answer here. Their problem isn't lack of orgasm; it's maladaptation and misogyny. There's no reason sex workers should have to deal with these guys either.

snagglegaggle 7y ago

At the end the article foists everything upon mental health treatment. I see no evidence that that will be enough. What if your life just sucks?[1] A therapist can't snap their fingers and get you more money. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Life_Syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_Life_Syndrome

wyldfire 7y ago
Life sucks ergo violence? No, therapy can help you cope.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  My wants are inconvenient so roll over and die quietly? Doesn't sound attractive.
acollins1331 7y ago
Right. I see all the stuff about mental health and getting people "help", but when it comes to the at risk type people I know and have known I seriously doubt some therapy would do much good. Some problems are very real and not imagined. They might be able to help you mask or deal with your anger/hate but treating the symptoms will only get you so far.
coliveira 7y ago
The problem is exactly that psychological therapy was replaced by social networks. Instead of helping each other, they're incentivizing their criminal urges.
wpietri 7y ago
If your life circumstances sucks, good mental health still means you won't blame it on women and/or do something horrifically violent to people unrelated to the causes of your problems. Instead, you'll turn toward fixing the problems. I will also note that the perception of having enough money is not very closely related to the amount of money you have. I have known people who are happy living on quite modest salaries, and people who feel like they're barely getting by on $500k/year. That's something therapists (and financial advisors) can definitely help with.

corporateslave5 7y ago

Online dating has made it so basically all of the women are sleeping with the top 10% of men. This is the new normal. Edit. This is also largely the view of incels. Forums where they talk about why they can’t get girls. So everyone down voting my post can go stick their heads in the sand. Adding one more thing. Anyone that hangs out with an extremely tall and attractive guy will be shocked how easy it is for them. It’s almost like living in a different reality. Dating and sex are extremely opaque. You need to run in different circles to understand what’s going on

ivraatiems 7y ago
You're gonna need to provide some data on that, because that sounds like absolute nonsense (potentially mixed with some misogynistic assumptions about how women choose partners) to me.
- corporateslave5 7y ago
  It’s not misogynistic if it’s true. The dating scene is absolutely brutal for a lot men, atleast until they can date women in their late twenties. The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all
  - crystaldev 7y ago
    A phrase like "top 10% of men" doesn't even compute for a woman. Women have wildly different tastes in men. It's men who rate women 1-10 and who exhibit consensus in their tastes. > The source is basically all I did for the last five years was work and chase women in major cities. I’ve seen it all Maybe it's you.
    - corporateslave5 7y ago
      clearly there’s an incel problem now that didn’t exist in the past. The problem is the internet. These guys not getting laid know why they aren’t getting laid. Go ahead and try and stick your head in the sand

orf 7y ago

You can view some of the more... repostable incel content here: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/top/?sort=top&t=month https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/top/?sort=top&t=month Seems like this is the natural progression of the "kneckbeard" stereotype, when mixed with more extreme online content and teenage sexual angst. Not sure how you can combat this kind of ideology.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
From the mods on a post: > Comments are locked because I got 10 reports of seperate people calling each other “fags” come on guys. We aren’t 12 anymore be an adult and stop using homophobic insults. Everyone who used a homophobic slur was banned for 30 days. Stop that. Wow. Apparently the moderation team is pretty important in deciding the path a sub goes down.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Or there's a sizable minority attached to this subject with legitimate concerns but an opinion which runs very counter to what is socially acceptable on Reddit. If you start paying attention, you can already tell which articles on Reddit are likely to be locked for this reason. Reddit is practically designed to amplify dogma into an echo chamber - that goes for how power among mods and admins is distributed and how the voting algorithm determines comment ordering and visibility. Incels are the new nerds. They're safe targets for ridicule, even though their lot ultimately sucks for reasons not entirely within their control. Telling someone who has trouble dating to learn to date is like telling a socially awkward, uncoordinated teenager to just "learn to play sports".
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    Incels aren't simply people who have trouble dating. Most people who have trouble dating don't turn in to bitter, hateful trolls who glorify in violence against the people they desire.

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago

There are a lot of troubled boys in this world growing up to be troubled men. We’re passing through a season of men vilification. Changing this ideology as a society is probably a good first step to creating the support programs we need to help turn things around.

joaomacp 7y ago

This article treats the 'incel' phenomenon as a security threat, just like ISIS and Al Qaeda, instead of looking at it as a social problem and trying to solve it. Doing this is the same as declaring 'war on drugs' instead of treating it as a medical condition, and trying to fix addiction problems by medical campaigns. I think the USA do this because they have a weak state, that can't really steer people's social and mental health. I think the ideal approach would be to look at how we can improve society, in order for 'incels' to stop existing. Technology plays a big part as culprit. Speaking from my experience, watching YouTube / Instagram / etc. fools my brain into thinking I have a social life, and makes real social interactions feel harder, as they're messier. It makes me socially anxious, because I almost never need to practice real-life interactions. I think the above happens to many young men today, and we should look at it as a society and find / promote solutions.

kerkeslager 7y ago

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" needs an update to the modern age. It's easy to get disgusted and frustrated with "incels", as they are constantly saying reprehensible things. But ostracizing them from society doesn't fix them, it just results in worse problems like this. I think we need to focus on rehabilitating incels so they can rejoin society as healthy members, rather than ostracizing them. At a more fundamental level, I think that our culture focuses too much on blame. Identifying the person who caused the problem doesn't solve the problem. We should focus on fixing the problem, not on blame. Yes, incels' suffering is mostly self-inflicted, but they are still suffering, and if we don't address that suffering, the suffering spreads. Perhaps the answer is to start treating "incel-ism" as a disease. I don't know if the disease model really applies here, but I think it's at least worth investigating. There's a balance to be had here: we need to be compassionate, but not naive. Some incels can't be in society because they are a danger to society, and our current ability to treat their suffering has limitations.

aiphex 7y ago
I believe most good psychologists have the ability to treat incels. It comes down to the incel wanting it and having access to it. Unfortunately our society doesn't offer adequate mental health care to those in need but who are lacking in resources. Whether it's incels, drug addicts, or you name it, the answer is that we need to do a better job of taking care of each other. Unfortunately we have the greedy ultra rich on top who keep siphoning off the fruits of our labour and leaving everyone else to fight over the scraps. We could do better.
pizza234 7y ago
> Perhaps the answer is to start treating "incel-ism" as a disease. There is already! Although the specific incel issue is not classified in psychology (AFAIK), a person with such severe symptoms can be classified as suffering from relationship and/or social anxiety disorders. I think that the incel problem has a very specific issue in the fact that it's culturally ostracized; people who suffer from it are labeled as shy and lazy. I'm not sure from which angle the social problem (I refer to the ostracization) should be attacked. Research on this subject started in the 80s, but there has never been a (significant) following. The rational wiki has a good introduction: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com#Love-shyness_as_a_mental_condition https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Love-shy.com#Love-shyness_as_a.... If the condition was officially recognized, I think it would be a very good start, as probably people suffering from it would have a clear reference; right now, since there isn't any, it's very easy to fall into toxic subcultures.

eplanit 7y ago

Maybe sex robots can help with this issue?

wpietri 7y ago
Probably not. If they were just lonely guys looking to get off, there are already plenty of options, commercial and free. Ones that they either reject or already use.
minimuffins 7y ago
These kids are the spawn of a terminally deranged postmodern technocapitalist society. You can see it's contradictory historical cultural dementia in incel ideology. They have no idea where they are in history. I want a wife and a family like a postwar company man! I want a life of automated techno luxury full of endless porn and gaming! I want to own a woman like in fuedal times! Somehow I doubt adding more soulless machinery to the mix is the correct solution to capitalist alienation. But whatever, try it. Why not.

shrubble 7y ago

From the article: 'the death toll now stands at more than 50 people ' (over a few years) https://crimeresearch.org/2015/01/do-more-children-die-of-bathtub-drownings-than-of-accidental-shootings-no/ https://crimeresearch.org/2015/01/do-more-children-die-of-ba... Annual rate of 69 children each year that die from... bathtubs. Seems a bit overblown... However... Anytime you have large numbers of unmarried men, you have social problems. This holds across multiple societies and multiple cultures across millennia.

93po 7y ago
It is. The whole "incel" movement is just manufactured outrage used to generate clicks
comicjk 7y ago
People with young children do worry about them drowning in the bath and take steps to prevent it. A better example of underfocused deaths, to contrast with the overfocus on unusual murders, would be car accidents.
minimuffins 7y ago
Bathtubs aren't a novel cultural formation. Bathtubs also don't kill people on purpose because of beliefs they've recently adopted. Personally I think it is reasonable that we talk more about incel killings than bathtub killings. The problem is not that incels pose an objective risk to my safety or yours but that their presence signals some kind of pretty serious systemic dysfunction. How does an ideology like that take hold on any kind of scale, is a question worth trying to answer.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  My bullshit theory is crimes have three potential 'against's' Against a person. Against a community. And against the state. Mass shootings check all three boxes hard.
awb 7y ago
Jordan Peterson has a quote roughly to the effect of: if you make people play a game they can't win they might flip the whole board over. Basically, people who feel powerless get angry. I think the blanket mindset is: I want X. I don't have X because of those people. Replace X and those people as needed and it covers the philosophy behind a lot of violence and division.

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allovernow 7y ago

>Although it was originally conceived as a site where lonely individuals of both sexes could meet, exchange experiences, and provide support, both the concept and its online manifestation were taken over by men complaining about their own involuntary celibacy and debating the causes behind their frustrations Because dating is asymmetric and loneliness is much more pervasive among men. It's incredibly frustrating that academics and media outright refuse to acknowledge this fact! This article is an ideologically driven, sensationalist dumpster fire.

wolfgke 7y ago
> Because dating is asymmetric and loneliness is much more pervasive among men. It's incredibly frustrating that academics and media outright refuse to acknowledge this fact! This article is an ideologically driven, sensationalist dumpster fire. Here an article who analyzes this phenomenon by the Gini coefficient (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gini_coefficient&oldid=935239101 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gini_coefficient&...): https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-the-dating-economy/ https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-t... "On a list of 149 countries’ Gini indices provided by the CIA World Factbook, this would place the female dating economy as 75th most unequal (average—think Western Europe) and the male dating economy as the 8th most unequal (kleptocracy, apartheid, perpetual civil war—think South Africa)."

The_rationalist 7y ago

The root cause is a hard cold truth that should have far more visibility than #metoo, in an ideal world. www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201104/why-dont-women-ask-men-out-first-dates/

mnm1 7y ago

Right wing groups and Islamic terrorists have killed millions. Comparing incels to them is frankly idiotic and ridiculous. That's like saying my one server search engine can compete with Google's search infrastructure. The words "terrorism" and "terrorist" are already almost meaningless. Let's not make them completely meaningless. Not every crime is terrorism. These are not organized groups perpetrating violence for a stated purpose, but fucked up individuals randomly killing people. If this is terrorism, every shooting is terrorism and the word becomes meaningless. Worse, it normalized actual terrorism, like that perpetrated by right wing extremists, and makes that indistinguishable from other crimes.

scarface74 7y ago

Just as a reference, the entire “Intel” movement started as a positive support group before it morphed into its current state. https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76h59o https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/76h59o