7 ms·

Hey gang. I've been an HN member for a long time, fairly prominent Bay Area tech executive, rich in the sense of both bank accounts and family. Alcohol brough

Hey gang. I've been an HN member for a long time, fairly prominent Bay Area tech executive, rich in the sense of both bank accounts and family. Alcohol brought me to my knees in my late 20s / early 30s. It started out as the typical "social lubricant" to help a natural introvert be better at connecting with people and was wonderful at that - I was the life of the party. Over a decade it leaked into a "requirement" for just about anything and eventually drinking heavily 3 / 4 nights a week. Eventually I sought paid help from therapists, coaches, natural remedies, medication, recovery specialists. Nothing worked. Eventually a therapist told me "you're screwed the only thing left to try is AA". I was highly skeptical, an agnostic, still am more or less, but AA saved my life on account of the comradery i found in the rooms of SV meetings. People with the same story and same struggles who worked the steps and recovered. One of the AA rules is attraction not promotion, this isn't promotion only my own simple testimonial. Statistics say that it doesn't work for a lot of people but knowing the general skeptical nature of HN and the crowd I want anybody struggling or who was in my situation to know that for this one skeptical / tech / entrepreneurial brain it was a lifesaver after trying basically everything else. Now sober ~9 years and counting and wouldn't have it any other way. I am happy to answer questions about the program if anybody is struggling, can give an anon email too if preferred. edit: temp gmail account ohohuhunkjnuihuh@gmail.com

WhompingWindows 7y ago
How religious is AA?
- pstuart 7y ago
  Step 3 of the 12 steps: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
- dranktoomuch 7y ago
  Per the comments below it's what you make it and some groups skew more towards a traditional "God" understanding my experience in general with norcal AA groups is "higher power" is used instead of "God" almost exclusively, people are very careful to not push God / religious understanding / etc At step 3 you have to turn it over to a "higher power" which is a reflection of the understanding that it is unlikely you, yourself have the power to control alcohol and there must be something "Greater than" you - that can be "physics" that can be "the moon" and a guy who has been sober a very long time in the meeting i go to says his higher power is the "light fixture"
- AAanon 7y ago
  If I had to give you a number, 20% (with a church being 100%)? But it really depends on the group. There non-religious modifications to the AA program. They don't say a prayer every 3 minutes. It definitely worth going to a meeting or two just to listen to their stories.
  - bigwavedave 7y ago
    My brother goes to one in Utah where they're actually very careful to stay away from any religious aspects. They understand that not everyone in Utah is LDS and they're very careful to make it so everyone feels included and isn't turned off by any religious undertones. I went with him to support him for his very first meeting and it was surprising how strict this rule was.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  Just FYI my friend started attending this non-religious alternative to AA and she has good things to say about it: https://www.smartrecovery.org/ https://www.smartrecovery.org/
- thrower123 7y ago
  Usually nauseatingly so, at least in my unfortunate court-ordered brush with the organization.
opportune 7y ago
After going sober, how did you deal with social situations where either other people were moderately drinking or you were expected to be gregarious?
- dranktoomuch 7y ago
  Great question, the first year my sponsor said "avoid those events or have an escape plan" avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink. aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach and believe the truth that unless you take somebody else's drink away from them or ask them to stop drinking nobody cares if you have a beer or a coke in your hand After the first year I learned that caffiene has a similar effect on me in social situations if i need to ramp up and can be just as engaging / moreso
  - throwaway287391 7y ago
    > avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink. > aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I don't understand -- why was pretending to get sick easier than telling the truth -- "I can't, I've quit drinking", or a softened version, "I'm not drinking tonight", etc.? Or did you start off with that and they'd continue to pressure you? I don't think I know anyone who'd be that much of an a-hole, unless they were already very drunk themselves.
    - dpark 7y ago
      Some people don’t want to publicly embrace the label “alcoholic” and all the social stigma it comes with. If you openly tell people that you “quit drinking” they will likely either assume alcoholism or openly ask you why. They are not likely to assume you just decided you don’t like the taste, so now you’ve got the label. If instead you tell people you aren’t “drinking tonight”, you will absolutely get pressure to drink, because “drinking is fun”, and you don’t have a “real reason not to drink”. I’ve seen it many times and I’m ashamed to say that I’ve participated before as well, not because it was my intent to actually pressure someone to drink, but because it was “good natured teasing”. If I had a friend who loved steak and he suddenly ordered a salad at the steakhouse, I’d similarly be tempted to tease him about his dinner choice, even though I don’t actually care if he had steak, or wine, or whatever. I’ve since recognized that this behavior is not healthy and tried to weed it out of myself, but it’s very common. This is by the way, why vegans complain about people teasing them or judging them about their food choices. With very few exceptions, it’s probably not malicious. It’s just people being stupid and not realizing the impact they’re having on others. In some cases, this can be just annoying. In others, this can be truly problematic.
jokowueu 7y ago
I know a functional alcoholic that drins a very large amount of alcohol but doesn't get drunk from it. He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs. How long was it until you felt your normal self ?
- dranktoomuch 7y ago
  a couple of weeks, for alcoholics w/significant PAWs they should work with a doctor or inpatient in addition to AA or similar early 2 week program, of which there are many i can reccomend depending on location other interesting timing stuff for me 30 days until believing i could actually do it "one day at a time" 90 days until the cravings subsided reguarly 1 year until cravings for the most part behind 2 years until no more alcohol dreams !
  - jokowueu 7y ago
    Thank you for this information.
- caspper69 7y ago
  > He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs As someone who's about to cross 4 years sober who was so stubborn he lost everything (a cardboard box would have been an upgrade), this is just f*cking hilarious. Boo hoo, he doesn't want withdrawal. Lol. Addiction doesn't work that way. If they're a real drunk, and if what you say is true about him/her not getting drunk, they are going to have much more serious health problems than some PAWs. They are going to start having fatty liver, neuropathy, stomach problems, blah, blah, blah. Once it starts from heavy alcoholism, it doesn't stop until you stop or die. PAWs be damned. The only difference is the booze can and WILL kill you. That's one thing that the booze industry never tells you. Hell, people are still surprised to learn that alcohol is one of 2 or 3 substances where even the withdrawal can kill you. It's just not all fun and games even if you don't have the addictive alcoholic genes.
elliotec 7y ago
When did you realize it was too much? Number of drinks? Hangovers? What was "heavily" 3/4 nights a week? What precisely was the moment you were brought to your knees as you say?
- ccsnags 7y ago
  Number of drinks is not a good way, in my experience. It’s a detail that isn’t important unless you are trying to game your own standard. You will convince yourself that your arbitrary line makes you ok. Hangovers turn into waking up drunk at some point. For me, they were a reason to drink. Withdrawal is like a hangover that lasts for weeks. The whole time, you will want a drink. My bottom was the realization that my alcoholism was a way of checking out of my life. Once I realized that, I just had to start doing other things and dealing with the problems I tried to drown. When you are in the pit of addiction, the first things you need are positive alternatives to drinking. It could be AA but I went a different route. I am not a meticulous scheduler, but I had a rigid schedule for the first few months. I even planned out my free time. I put myself back out into the world, and found that I loved it and the people in it.
  - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
    Taking a bath as they say (my uncle used to do it until he developed cancer) is indicative of a problem IMO. When you wake up at 9 AM and start drinking, get drunk the whole day, sleep and repeat the whole cycle, that's when you definitively have a problem.
    - relativeadv 7y ago
      Yes and no. I know many people that would be well served if they removed this idea of, "Well, i can't be an alcoholic because i don't drink beer for breakfast" notion from their minds. I was never like that either, but I did use it as an escape at almost every opportunity I could. I would spend an enormous portion of my waking life rumination about alcohol and strategizing over how to get away with it. When will i start drinking today? How much will I drink and not have a hangover? Well, theres that dinner at 7 tonight. Do you think they'll each have one or two drinks? Would i get some stares if i have three drinks? I'll be a year sober next month.
ccsnags 7y ago
Early to late twenties for me. I struggled through AA but I found it to be too defeatist. I couldn’t get clean framing the problem the way that they do. The turning point for me was a joke by a stand up comedian that kind of glorified being a drunk. Doug Stanhope had a line similar to “addiction is just a thing you like doing more than living your life”. I chose to live my life. I got hobbies, took classes, worked a lot and I got through the first few months by staying busy. Over time I balanced out my life schedule (also finding out I have workaholic tendencies). Everyone’s path is different. I can’t believe mine has worked for 6 years. AA isn’t for everyone, but it works for many. It should be the default first option for people wanting out.
- krilly 7y ago
  Have you read/seen Trainspotting? That's essentially the message
- wallace_f 7y ago
  I feel like my whole life is a series of addictions designed to prevent me from drudging through the extreme anger and sadness I have in my life. At least, luckily, I don't like to drink so excessively.
  - acjohnson55 7y ago
    I've been there. Have you figured out how to work through those deep seated emotional states?
    - wallace_f 7y ago
      No. Yes? That's what I mean, my whole life is a way of dealing with them by using escape mechanisms. HN is one of them. Lesser one.
      - acjohnson55 7y ago
        Yep. I can't be totally sure the extent to which I've unpacked my issues versus improved my ability to mask them. I'm positive I do both, but a great deal of good fortune means that I'll have to wait for the inevitable dark times to find out.
hooande 7y ago
Given your success, I'm surprised that you feel the need to remain anonymous. Is it only social stigma, or do you think that there would be business or professional consequences if people knew that you are an alcoholic in recovery?
- unstatusthequo 7y ago
  I’m not surprised at all. Why cause yourself trouble by airing dirty laundry? Zero upside for him to do so, and really no reason to. Knowing he is X person doesn’t add anything to the message, it would almost certainly have blowback for him.
  - germinalphrase 7y ago
    Agreed. His message is a gesture enough.
  - hooande 7y ago
    what's the blowback that you envision? maybe one of his investors will say "you used to be an alcoholic so we're pulling funding"?
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      Yes?
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      Pride is one of the cardinal sins. Doing a peacock walk creates and reinforces the type of self delusion that got you in trouble to begin with.
- whiddershins 7y ago
  That’s also an aa concept. It’s literally in the name. There’s something about print and interviews and such but I don’t recall the details.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
As someone that's tried aa meetings and found sobriety through other means I want to echo that finding people with your story and your struggles is one of the keys to recovery. I didn't find these people in the aa meetings I went. Or on therapists couches. I still haven't really found my people, but I have found that I'm not alone in my struggles and that I cannot escape through substance abuse. This was my turning point in allowing me to reign in my substance use. Did it solve any of the problems I had before? No. But I've got one less problem now.

WhompingWindows 7y ago

How religious is AA?

pstuart 7y ago
Step 3 of the 12 steps: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
dranktoomuch 7y ago
Per the comments below it's what you make it and some groups skew more towards a traditional "God" understanding my experience in general with norcal AA groups is "higher power" is used instead of "God" almost exclusively, people are very careful to not push God / religious understanding / etc At step 3 you have to turn it over to a "higher power" which is a reflection of the understanding that it is unlikely you, yourself have the power to control alcohol and there must be something "Greater than" you - that can be "physics" that can be "the moon" and a guy who has been sober a very long time in the meeting i go to says his higher power is the "light fixture"
AAanon 7y ago
If I had to give you a number, 20% (with a church being 100%)? But it really depends on the group. There non-religious modifications to the AA program. They don't say a prayer every 3 minutes. It definitely worth going to a meeting or two just to listen to their stories.
- bigwavedave 7y ago
  My brother goes to one in Utah where they're actually very careful to stay away from any religious aspects. They understand that not everyone in Utah is LDS and they're very careful to make it so everyone feels included and isn't turned off by any religious undertones. I went with him to support him for his very first meeting and it was surprising how strict this rule was.
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
Just FYI my friend started attending this non-religious alternative to AA and she has good things to say about it: https://www.smartrecovery.org/ https://www.smartrecovery.org/
thrower123 7y ago
Usually nauseatingly so, at least in my unfortunate court-ordered brush with the organization.

opportune 7y ago

After going sober, how did you deal with social situations where either other people were moderately drinking or you were expected to be gregarious?

dranktoomuch 7y ago
Great question, the first year my sponsor said "avoid those events or have an escape plan" avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink. aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach and believe the truth that unless you take somebody else's drink away from them or ask them to stop drinking nobody cares if you have a beer or a coke in your hand After the first year I learned that caffiene has a similar effect on me in social situations if i need to ramp up and can be just as engaging / moreso
- throwaway287391 7y ago
  > avoiding was a non starter so the "escape plan" was I committed to leave, akwardly as it may be, before i picked up a drink. > aka if someobdy was pressuring me to drink to the point i felt i had to i would say "ok get me a beer i have to go to the bathroom" and then disappear and blame it on an upset stomach I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I don't understand -- why was pretending to get sick easier than telling the truth -- "I can't, I've quit drinking", or a softened version, "I'm not drinking tonight", etc.? Or did you start off with that and they'd continue to pressure you? I don't think I know anyone who'd be that much of an a-hole, unless they were already very drunk themselves.
  - dpark 7y ago
    Some people don’t want to publicly embrace the label “alcoholic” and all the social stigma it comes with. If you openly tell people that you “quit drinking” they will likely either assume alcoholism or openly ask you why. They are not likely to assume you just decided you don’t like the taste, so now you’ve got the label. If instead you tell people you aren’t “drinking tonight”, you will absolutely get pressure to drink, because “drinking is fun”, and you don’t have a “real reason not to drink”. I’ve seen it many times and I’m ashamed to say that I’ve participated before as well, not because it was my intent to actually pressure someone to drink, but because it was “good natured teasing”. If I had a friend who loved steak and he suddenly ordered a salad at the steakhouse, I’d similarly be tempted to tease him about his dinner choice, even though I don’t actually care if he had steak, or wine, or whatever. I’ve since recognized that this behavior is not healthy and tried to weed it out of myself, but it’s very common. This is by the way, why vegans complain about people teasing them or judging them about their food choices. With very few exceptions, it’s probably not malicious. It’s just people being stupid and not realizing the impact they’re having on others. In some cases, this can be just annoying. In others, this can be truly problematic.

jokowueu 7y ago

I know a functional alcoholic that drins a very large amount of alcohol but doesn't get drunk from it. He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs. How long was it until you felt your normal self ?

dranktoomuch 7y ago
a couple of weeks, for alcoholics w/significant PAWs they should work with a doctor or inpatient in addition to AA or similar early 2 week program, of which there are many i can reccomend depending on location other interesting timing stuff for me 30 days until believing i could actually do it "one day at a time" 90 days until the cravings subsided reguarly 1 year until cravings for the most part behind 2 years until no more alcohol dreams !
- jokowueu 7y ago
  Thank you for this information.
caspper69 7y ago
> He wants to stop but refuses to go through long PAWs As someone who's about to cross 4 years sober who was so stubborn he lost everything (a cardboard box would have been an upgrade), this is just f*cking hilarious. Boo hoo, he doesn't want withdrawal. Lol. Addiction doesn't work that way. If they're a real drunk, and if what you say is true about him/her not getting drunk, they are going to have much more serious health problems than some PAWs. They are going to start having fatty liver, neuropathy, stomach problems, blah, blah, blah. Once it starts from heavy alcoholism, it doesn't stop until you stop or die. PAWs be damned. The only difference is the booze can and WILL kill you. That's one thing that the booze industry never tells you. Hell, people are still surprised to learn that alcohol is one of 2 or 3 substances where even the withdrawal can kill you. It's just not all fun and games even if you don't have the addictive alcoholic genes.

elliotec 7y ago

When did you realize it was too much? Number of drinks? Hangovers? What was "heavily" 3/4 nights a week? What precisely was the moment you were brought to your knees as you say?

ccsnags 7y ago
Number of drinks is not a good way, in my experience. It’s a detail that isn’t important unless you are trying to game your own standard. You will convince yourself that your arbitrary line makes you ok. Hangovers turn into waking up drunk at some point. For me, they were a reason to drink. Withdrawal is like a hangover that lasts for weeks. The whole time, you will want a drink. My bottom was the realization that my alcoholism was a way of checking out of my life. Once I realized that, I just had to start doing other things and dealing with the problems I tried to drown. When you are in the pit of addiction, the first things you need are positive alternatives to drinking. It could be AA but I went a different route. I am not a meticulous scheduler, but I had a rigid schedule for the first few months. I even planned out my free time. I put myself back out into the world, and found that I loved it and the people in it.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
  Taking a bath as they say (my uncle used to do it until he developed cancer) is indicative of a problem IMO. When you wake up at 9 AM and start drinking, get drunk the whole day, sleep and repeat the whole cycle, that's when you definitively have a problem.
  - relativeadv 7y ago
    Yes and no. I know many people that would be well served if they removed this idea of, "Well, i can't be an alcoholic because i don't drink beer for breakfast" notion from their minds. I was never like that either, but I did use it as an escape at almost every opportunity I could. I would spend an enormous portion of my waking life rumination about alcohol and strategizing over how to get away with it. When will i start drinking today? How much will I drink and not have a hangover? Well, theres that dinner at 7 tonight. Do you think they'll each have one or two drinks? Would i get some stares if i have three drinks? I'll be a year sober next month.

ccsnags 7y ago

Early to late twenties for me. I struggled through AA but I found it to be too defeatist. I couldn’t get clean framing the problem the way that they do. The turning point for me was a joke by a stand up comedian that kind of glorified being a drunk. Doug Stanhope had a line similar to “addiction is just a thing you like doing more than living your life”. I chose to live my life. I got hobbies, took classes, worked a lot and I got through the first few months by staying busy. Over time I balanced out my life schedule (also finding out I have workaholic tendencies). Everyone’s path is different. I can’t believe mine has worked for 6 years. AA isn’t for everyone, but it works for many. It should be the default first option for people wanting out.

krilly 7y ago
Have you read/seen Trainspotting? That's essentially the message
wallace_f 7y ago
I feel like my whole life is a series of addictions designed to prevent me from drudging through the extreme anger and sadness I have in my life. At least, luckily, I don't like to drink so excessively.
- acjohnson55 7y ago
  I've been there. Have you figured out how to work through those deep seated emotional states?
  - wallace_f 7y ago
    No. Yes? That's what I mean, my whole life is a way of dealing with them by using escape mechanisms. HN is one of them. Lesser one.
    - acjohnson55 7y ago
      Yep. I can't be totally sure the extent to which I've unpacked my issues versus improved my ability to mask them. I'm positive I do both, but a great deal of good fortune means that I'll have to wait for the inevitable dark times to find out.

hooande 7y ago

Given your success, I'm surprised that you feel the need to remain anonymous. Is it only social stigma, or do you think that there would be business or professional consequences if people knew that you are an alcoholic in recovery?

unstatusthequo 7y ago
I’m not surprised at all. Why cause yourself trouble by airing dirty laundry? Zero upside for him to do so, and really no reason to. Knowing he is X person doesn’t add anything to the message, it would almost certainly have blowback for him.
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  Agreed. His message is a gesture enough.
- hooande 7y ago
  what's the blowback that you envision? maybe one of his investors will say "you used to be an alcoholic so we're pulling funding"?
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    Yes?
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    Pride is one of the cardinal sins. Doing a peacock walk creates and reinforces the type of self delusion that got you in trouble to begin with.
whiddershins 7y ago
That’s also an aa concept. It’s literally in the name. There’s something about print and interviews and such but I don’t recall the details.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago

As someone that's tried aa meetings and found sobriety through other means I want to echo that finding people with your story and your struggles is one of the keys to recovery. I didn't find these people in the aa meetings I went. Or on therapists couches. I still haven't really found my people, but I have found that I'm not alone in my struggles and that I cannot escape through substance abuse. This was my turning point in allowing me to reign in my substance use. Did it solve any of the problems I had before? No. But I've got one less problem now.