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Re/ medicare for all ... Canada has universal health care yet a very similar suicide rate to the USA.[1] Canada doesn't have a livable minimum wage either. Each

Re/ medicare for all ... Canada has universal health care yet a very similar suicide rate to the USA.[1] Canada doesn't have a livable minimum wage either. Each province sets its own. There is talk of UBI experiments. [1] https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/02/us-vs-canada-suicide-edition.html https://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/02/us-vs-can...

zeroxfe 7y ago
That's 2011 data. Most recent data is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... * Global rate: 10.5 per 100,000 people * Canada rate: 10.4 per 100,000 people * US rate: 13.7 per 100,000 people
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  Wonder if this can be normalized with other factors that influence these things, like average daily sunlight and temperature... Curious to see how Michigan would compare with Ontario or Alaska or Northern Washington would compare with British Columbia
- rwmurrayVT 7y ago
  Canada's suicide rate is also greatly impacted by the unfortunate prevalence of it among the native population. It's really quite sad to see. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada#Among_Indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada#Among_Indige...
godelski 7y ago
But there's other factors there. Do we know if there was a change after Canada switched to universal health care?
- aaron_m04 7y ago
  Yes, like Seasonal Affective Disorder.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  I think it would be hard to compare the two times. Canada is unrecognizable in so many ways when compared with Canada before that point in time. We got a constitution, no-fault divorce, and a whole lot of other major changes in the course of about ten years, the same ten years the provincial health insurance was introduced AFAIK.
solinent 7y ago
Our model (Canada) doesn't include free ambulances or drugs, it's better to compare to the European model. We do have good welfare programs here however, and drugs are much cheaper anyways.
- plumednom 7y ago
  Any good model does it's best to prevent ambulances. The kink in the USA is that if you cannot afford to go to a family doctor, you call 911, they send you an ambulance, you get a free ride to the general hospital emergency room where you then sit for 5 hours to be told you have bronchitis. That taxi ride cost the taxpayers about $2500, and then the hospital writes off another $1500 (which is what the emergency room would charge you for 10 minutes of doctor time. Really). I moved from San Francisco to Istanbul a few years ago, and now every time I hear an ambulance or a firetruck I am blown away by the fact that I heard one. In SF you don't hear them because they're going 24/7, mostly for stupid reasons (certainly not fires). Ambulance frequent fliers also really gum up the works. Take for example Bruce Myers, an alcoholic drug addict who gets picked up in an ambulance on average 90 times per year. There's another drunk in San Francisco who averages 300 times per year and has cost the city $10m. Pretty much every single aspect of healthcare in America is broken.
claudeganon 7y ago
But by contrast, the UK and it’s NHS has almost half the rate of the US.
- arprocter 7y ago
  Also UK minimum wage is £8.21 for folks 25 and older
- are-you-sure 7y ago
  Where are you getting your facts from? The UK has a higher than global average, with some demographics tragically high. UK – 11.2 per 100,000 people – in 2018 (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/03/suicides-rates-in-uk-increase-to-highest-level-since-2002 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/03/suicides-rat... & https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2018registrations#suicides-in-the-uk https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...). I think the UK's Office of National Statistics is a better source of information that Wikipedia. UBI is a great idea. Unfortunately, minimum wage now usually means "in work" poverty, that's not a good thing. edit: @0000011111, I think income inequality could certainly be a driver.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    This was my off the 2016 WHO numbers, 13.7 per 100K in the US vs 7.6 per 100K in the UK: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide... But your correct that we should probably go by the individual countries’ statistics, where the UK is slightly above the average compared to other developed countries and the US a good amount above it.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    The UK counts suicide deaths differently to the US, and it's likely the the UK over counts while the US under counts. I agree that the ONS is a better source of information than Wikipedia. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2014registrations#methodological-changes https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... Here's the old definition: > The previous National Statistics definition of suicide includes deaths from intentional self-harm (where a coroner has given a suicide conclusion or made it clear in the narrative conclusion that the deceased intended to kill themselves) and events of undetermined intent (mainly deaths where a coroner has given an open conclusion) in people aged 15 and over. It's this "events of undetermined intent" part that is different. In the US (and I guess many other places" those deaths are not counted as suicide. The US uses this definition: > Death caused by self-directed injurious behavior with an intent to die as a result of the behavior
ashes-of-sol 7y ago
We have universal health care, but that does not typically cover dental, mental, or pharma costs. I think our system has been allowed to be mediocre because it still looks good compared to the US
14 7y ago
I really hope we do not get a UBI in any current forms. I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. What I wish Canada would do instead is establish some sort of Universal Basic Rights like every man woman and child is entitled to 5lbs of potatoes a week, 1 gallon of milk, 1 pound of carrots, ect. I as a Canadian do not want a check every week, the next day I can be told my cost of living has gone up. I want to know I can eat and shelter myself at the end of the day. How we can do that I do not know and am thankful I am in a good financial position to not have to worry about it.
- dmwallin 7y ago
  > I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. That's not how economics works. The prices most stores charge is limited by competition. The only areas you might see an effect are in ones where supply is highly, and likely artificially, constrained.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >That's not how economics works. The prices most stores charge is limited by competition. There would be no much change in competition, as everybody that sells anything of low-medium value will benefit from the increased spending capacity UBI receivers. The increased demand across all competitors will raise prices.
  - HarryHirsch 7y ago
    Housing is artificially constrained due to zoning regulation, and in any given area there is a small number of major landlords, who all know each other and who all are politically well connected. UBI will be a conduit to funnel money from the taxpayers to large landowners.
    - sjg007 7y ago
      I mean rent control would be an answer in these markets. You could have that determined by formula or analysis. In California commercial property use should invalidate prop 13 as well. That should open things up.
blaser-waffle 7y ago
The UBI experiments in ON were recently killed by Ford. (the leader, not the car company; the brother of the crack smoking mayor, the white one)

zeroxfe 7y ago

That's 2011 data. Most recent data is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... * Global rate: 10.5 per 100,000 people * Canada rate: 10.4 per 100,000 people * US rate: 13.7 per 100,000 people

akhilcacharya 7y ago
Wonder if this can be normalized with other factors that influence these things, like average daily sunlight and temperature... Curious to see how Michigan would compare with Ontario or Alaska or Northern Washington would compare with British Columbia
rwmurrayVT 7y ago
Canada's suicide rate is also greatly impacted by the unfortunate prevalence of it among the native population. It's really quite sad to see. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada#Among_Indigenous_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada#Among_Indige...

godelski 7y ago

But there's other factors there. Do we know if there was a change after Canada switched to universal health care?

aaron_m04 7y ago
Yes, like Seasonal Affective Disorder.
microcolonel 7y ago
I think it would be hard to compare the two times. Canada is unrecognizable in so many ways when compared with Canada before that point in time. We got a constitution, no-fault divorce, and a whole lot of other major changes in the course of about ten years, the same ten years the provincial health insurance was introduced AFAIK.

solinent 7y ago

Our model (Canada) doesn't include free ambulances or drugs, it's better to compare to the European model. We do have good welfare programs here however, and drugs are much cheaper anyways.

plumednom 7y ago
Any good model does it's best to prevent ambulances. The kink in the USA is that if you cannot afford to go to a family doctor, you call 911, they send you an ambulance, you get a free ride to the general hospital emergency room where you then sit for 5 hours to be told you have bronchitis. That taxi ride cost the taxpayers about $2500, and then the hospital writes off another $1500 (which is what the emergency room would charge you for 10 minutes of doctor time. Really). I moved from San Francisco to Istanbul a few years ago, and now every time I hear an ambulance or a firetruck I am blown away by the fact that I heard one. In SF you don't hear them because they're going 24/7, mostly for stupid reasons (certainly not fires). Ambulance frequent fliers also really gum up the works. Take for example Bruce Myers, an alcoholic drug addict who gets picked up in an ambulance on average 90 times per year. There's another drunk in San Francisco who averages 300 times per year and has cost the city $10m. Pretty much every single aspect of healthcare in America is broken.

claudeganon 7y ago

But by contrast, the UK and it’s NHS has almost half the rate of the US.

arprocter 7y ago
Also UK minimum wage is £8.21 for folks 25 and older
are-you-sure 7y ago
Where are you getting your facts from? The UK has a higher than global average, with some demographics tragically high. UK – 11.2 per 100,000 people – in 2018 (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/03/suicides-rates-in-uk-increase-to-highest-level-since-2002 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/03/suicides-rat... & https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2018registrations#suicides-in-the-uk https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...). I think the UK's Office of National Statistics is a better source of information that Wikipedia. UBI is a great idea. Unfortunately, minimum wage now usually means "in work" poverty, that's not a good thing. edit: @0000011111, I think income inequality could certainly be a driver.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  This was my off the 2016 WHO numbers, 13.7 per 100K in the US vs 7.6 per 100K in the UK: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide... But your correct that we should probably go by the individual countries’ statistics, where the UK is slightly above the average compared to other developed countries and the US a good amount above it.
- DanBC 7y ago
  The UK counts suicide deaths differently to the US, and it's likely the the UK over counts while the US under counts. I agree that the ONS is a better source of information than Wikipedia. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2014registrations#methodological-changes https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde... Here's the old definition: > The previous National Statistics definition of suicide includes deaths from intentional self-harm (where a coroner has given a suicide conclusion or made it clear in the narrative conclusion that the deceased intended to kill themselves) and events of undetermined intent (mainly deaths where a coroner has given an open conclusion) in people aged 15 and over. It's this "events of undetermined intent" part that is different. In the US (and I guess many other places" those deaths are not counted as suicide. The US uses this definition: > Death caused by self-directed injurious behavior with an intent to die as a result of the behavior

ashes-of-sol 7y ago

We have universal health care, but that does not typically cover dental, mental, or pharma costs. I think our system has been allowed to be mediocre because it still looks good compared to the US

14 7y ago

I really hope we do not get a UBI in any current forms. I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. What I wish Canada would do instead is establish some sort of Universal Basic Rights like every man woman and child is entitled to 5lbs of potatoes a week, 1 gallon of milk, 1 pound of carrots, ect. I as a Canadian do not want a check every week, the next day I can be told my cost of living has gone up. I want to know I can eat and shelter myself at the end of the day. How we can do that I do not know and am thankful I am in a good financial position to not have to worry about it.

dmwallin 7y ago
> I know the second the stores realize that every person now has 'x' amount of dollars to spend, they will raise the prices to match the most they can extract. That's not how economics works. The prices most stores charge is limited by competition. The only areas you might see an effect are in ones where supply is highly, and likely artificially, constrained.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >That's not how economics works. The prices most stores charge is limited by competition. There would be no much change in competition, as everybody that sells anything of low-medium value will benefit from the increased spending capacity UBI receivers. The increased demand across all competitors will raise prices.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  Housing is artificially constrained due to zoning regulation, and in any given area there is a small number of major landlords, who all know each other and who all are politically well connected. UBI will be a conduit to funnel money from the taxpayers to large landowners.
  - sjg007 7y ago
    I mean rent control would be an answer in these markets. You could have that determined by formula or analysis. In California commercial property use should invalidate prop 13 as well. That should open things up.

blaser-waffle 7y ago

The UBI experiments in ON were recently killed by Ford. (the leader, not the car company; the brother of the crack smoking mayor, the white one)