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Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

238 points by Deimorz 7y ago

ourmandave 7y ago
That's a blow. There's not a lot of companies employing divers in the gig economy.
- kpennell 7y ago
  scooters not cars though...no divers needed
- bransonf 7y ago
  Sarcasm? The vast majority of gig-jobs are driving. Ride share and delivery make up the obvious lion’s share of gig work.
  - bhandziuk 7y ago
    divers. Like for getting bikes and scooters from lakes and rivers when the drunkards toss them over a bridge.
- jascii 7y ago
  While I see plenty of reports of divers pulling scooters from bodies of water, these are usually divers employed by the local sheriff's office or fire department. It seems like the insurance/liability issues involved would be limiting for your average "gig economy" company.. That said, walk into any marina and you'd have plenty of gigs cleaning hulls..
twoheadedboy 7y ago
> He said that projection is based in part on improvements to Lime scooters' longevity, which in 2019 went from from six months to about 14 months. That still seems like an incredibly short amount of time.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  14 months for the abuse these things take? I'm impressed they last more than 90 days to be honest.
vkou 7y ago
Is this because you can't make money off short-term scooter rentals (Because the cost of providing this service is > what customers are willing to pay), or because other startups ate their lunch? My wife is seriously considering a scooter (Even a non-electrified one) for her commute (2-3 days a week, 5 miles) - and I can't see a world where we'd rent one on the daily, as opposed to owning. My uninformed guess is: A problem with the rental model is the colossal inefficiency of having to pay people with cars and vans to drive around, and collect + charge scooters at the end of the day. This is a huge waste of resources and human time. Even with VCs p------ a firehose of money into the market, most of it ends up going to drivers, rather than customers.
- bosie 7y ago
  5 miles one way? Genuine question but why would you want to commute 5 miles on a scooter multiple times a week compared to a bicycle?
  - ckuhl 7y ago
    I think the biggest advantage scooters have over ebikes is that for a lot of people, there’s a place to store a scooter at both ends of a commute (under a desk) but not necessarily secure bike storage.
    - jxramos 7y ago
      Exactly, I'm actually considering owning a scooter specifically for those situations where I don't have a secure place to store the bike at the other end of travel or during some interval.
    - rocketpastsix 7y ago
      Not only that, but as a cyclist who took scooters to the office back when I worked in one, the main advantage was when I used a scooter I didn't show up sweaty. It doesn't matter how slow you pedal, in the American Southeast, just being outside in the summer makes you sweat. A lot of places in this area don't have offices with showers in them. A scooter let me spend time outside without having to end up being a mess.
ghaff 7y ago
I do a lot of travel and, anecdotally, there seems to be a huge variation in popularity of rental scooters by city (even just considering the cities where one or more companies operate). Wide bike/pedestrian paths are probably one factor and weather is another. But they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious, at least to me.
- jonas21 7y ago
  > they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious I think a lot of this has to do with regulation. Some cities actively encouraged scooters and bikes, some took a hands-off approach, and others banned or restricted them to the level where it was difficult to operate. You can really see the effect of this in San Diego, which at first welcomed the bikes and scooters, then reversed course and banned them in a lot of places [1]. Several of the companies left town after that happened, and you see a lot fewer bikes and scooters around now. It's still the same city, same weather, and there are more bike lanes than there were two years ago. The only thing that changed is the regulation. [1] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/2019-10-14/new-rules-shaping-scooter-use-in-san-diego https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/...
  - arrosenberg 7y ago
    I don't remember welcoming them, so much as they proliferated over the course of a few months. They were so "popular" that they were being left all over the place to the point where it was widely regarded as hazardous. Companies in this space need to take more responsibility for the impact on the community and environment - regulation didn't kill them in San Diego, the companies themselves did.
  - BrentOzar 7y ago
    > You can really see the effect of this in San Diego, which at first welcomed the bikes and scooters, then reversed course and banned them in a lot of places I'm in San Diego, and that's exactly what happened. I live downtown, and at first, scooters were my favorite way to get around. Then the city forced the scooter vendors to configure no-ride zones, 3mph speed limit zones (seriously, you can walk faster), and no-parking zones inside their apps, and geofence them. Overnight, the downtown scooter market just dried up. I stopped using all scooters downtown because of this, not just Lime, and since the regulation kicked in, I can't see any scooter company making it in downtown San Diego. The scooters just disappeared.
hinkley 7y ago
Leaves 12 markets and lays off 8 people per market? For a company with a physical product and inventory, 8 people per city seems like somewhere in the neighborhood of sobriety, possibly verging on stingy. Not the sort of excess we so often find in a tech company that is experiencing layoffs.
- cnorthwood 7y ago
  They may also have "independent contractors" to do the work
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    The guys who retrieve the scooters for these kinds of companies are "independent contractors." https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/15/18267128/lime-electric-scooter-charging-juicers-harvesting-business https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/15/18267128/lime-electric-sc...
  - kortilla 7y ago
    “Juicers”
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Ah, right. That does skew those numbers quite a bit.
- hiccuphippo 7y ago
  This is not counting all the people they "employ" to service their scooters. Hopefully the market is big enough to accommodate them into the competition.
- tempsy 7y ago
  companies like Uber, Lime, Bird, etc. have a lot of small regional offices in different cities that mostly employ operations and local marketing people that handle the grunt work with running these types of city-based companies. These aren't typical "tech" jobs and not typical "tech" offices.
TacticalTable 7y ago
Of the e-scooter startups I've tried, Lime is my favorite. In my smaller city (Indianapolis) we just have Bird and Lime, and Bird's restrictions on hours, locations, and parking make them very difficult to use (They turn themselves off if they leave their range, and many pieces of downtown are considered 'out of bounds'). Meanwhile, the Limes are better distributed around the city, easier to park, and have much more generous boundaries. Bird has the stronger brand recognition, but that's about it. I'm surprised that it was warmer climate cities that underperformed in the US, because I would have expected those to have a much better chance for profit, as cold winter seasons dramatically reduce scooter usage. Too much competition?
- ASinclair 7y ago
  > I'm surprised that it was warmer climate cities that underperformed in the US, because I would have expected those to have a much better chance for profit, as cold winter seasons dramatically reduce scooter usage. Too much competition? I was surprised about this too. Though, from my anecdotal experience, there are a ton of micromobility companies operating in San Diego.
  - jarcoal 7y ago
    I recently visited San Diego and was absolutely blown away by how many scooter companies were operating there, and how many unused scooters I saw lying around.
    - lame-robot-hoax 7y ago
      There’s a ton in Denver that’s for sure. Bird, Lime, Uber/Jump, Razor, and Lyft just off the top of my head. There’s pretty much at least one or so parked on every corner in the downtown area.
  - munificent 7y ago
    I wonder how much of this is because warmer climate cities have greater homeless and/or drug addict problems. Here in Seattle, I saw lots of trashed Lime bikes and lots of unsavory folks using them, often with enough stuff piled onto them to imply they had forcibly unlocked them and were using them long-term. I ran into a couple of managers at Lime once and they said vandalism and theft was a big problem.
jeffnappi 7y ago
Lime has the worst bikes on the planet - they are complete garbage compared to the Uber/JUMP bikes (and probably others). The Lime bikes seemed to constantly be falling apart and were actually pretty terrifying to ride. On the other hand, the JUMP bikes feel very robust and I feel safe riding them. I would rather walk half a mile to find a JUMP bike than ride a Lime bike. No wonder they are failing. Source: Rode both Lime and Uber JUMP bikes in Seattle (rode a JUMP bike twice last night)
- jeppebemad 7y ago
  In copenhagen Lime is the most robust (and albeit clunky) of the 5-6 brands present. It seems they are the same as in your town. Wonder why our experience differ so much?
  - jeffnappi 7y ago
    Maybe because Americans treat the bikes poorly compared to the civilized folks of Denmark ;) The JUMP bikes are just better made by a wide margin and seem to handle the abuse well - https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/london-electric-bikes-tested-uber-jump-bikes-lime-bikes-a4155026.html https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/london-electric-bikes-tested...
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    GP has used Lime e-bicycles, but you've used Lime scooters. Example Lime e-bicycle: https://road.cc/content/news/252967-london-gets-its-first-dockless-e-bike-hire-scheme-lime https://road.cc/content/news/252967-london-gets-its-first-do...
- 013a 7y ago
  Same story with their scooters IMO. I would rather walk a block or two and find a Bird than settle for a Lime. On at least one occassion my options were Grab a Lime or walk 10 blocks; I walked. Though, I feel like the reasoning is opposite for the scooters; they're absolutely huge vehicles that were clearly built to last in the harsh environments they're deployed in, and in doing so gained a ton of weight and volume. They're slow. The brakes are often so strong that they could cause riders to loose balance from the negative acceleration. They manuver so poorly that I feel unsafe while riding them. The big reason why I love the gen-1 Bird scooters, as unreliable as they are, is because they're so damn nimble, I have zero issues taking super-tight turns and weaves, and often that's necessary in urban environments just to protect yourself from the hazards of broken roads or cars. The newest gen Bird scooters strike a decent balance between being lightweight, fast, and (I assume) durable to the extreme environment.
baxtr 7y ago
I counted seven different scooter companies in my town recently. The party had to end at one point...
- jandrese 7y ago
  It's just like 3D printers a few years ago. Dozens of companies spring up around the technology and gradually attrition down to a the handful of most successful ones. A more direct parallel might be all of the Hoverboard clones that flooded the market a few years ago. Whenever something is new and hot and the barrier to entry isn't too high you'll get an explosion of startups trying to make their name.
  - baxtr 7y ago
    Yes, I agree. The big difference is I think: all of these seven startups needed a huuuge amount of capital to start in various cities.
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
Okay so how do I get a cheap e-scooter? Or will they just trash the still-working hardware?
- dole 7y ago
  Check into police impoundment and auctions in your area.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  They'll be collected and sold through an auction company for liquidation probably or redistributed to other markets.
- asdff 7y ago
  I see a lot on craigslist for well under retail. Occasionally converted birds that work off the network crop up. That's the cheapest way, $30 on aliexpress then you just find the best looking bird you can.
bransonf 7y ago
Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to maintain any profitability, and the demand already sucks. Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation?
- samatman 7y ago
  Too much money, chasing not enough alpha.
- john_moscow 7y ago
  >Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation? Because VCs get paid from selling the shares to the public. So as long as a general unsophisticated investor is expected to buy in, it's a good deal for a VC, even if the underlying business model is laughable.
  - texasbigdata 7y ago
    While never having been on one due to no helmets being provided, in Denver and in Dallas and in Austin they arguably revolutionized the city core and how younger people get around. For better and worse. And while not fully diligent on this, isn't Uber still not profitable on a unit economic basis? And they are mature and public. Perhaps that statement isn't true but it provides one justification for investing in scooters
    - bransonf 7y ago
      You are correct about Uber not being profitable. They’re burning cash quickly. And if you look at market performance, they’re not where they expected to be. Furthermore, they’re fighting things like employee unionization (See California) which will increase their cost. And Uber is fundamentally different. It’s not seasonal, and the costs fall mainly on drivers rather than the company. Investors are hopeful on Uber, but I bet if a scooter company tried to go public right now, it would get eaten alive.
irjustin 7y ago
I use Lime scooters in SF. Too many scooters aren't fully charged in the morning near Market St - I wonder if the charging incentives are being slashed. Separately, it makes sense that an additional cash infusion is unrealistic at this point. Post WeWork decimation, large D, E, F rounds will be increasingly difficult to close as we go through 2020. Profitability is the right move. Whether it's possible or not... Best of luck to Lime.
wil421 7y ago
Good riddance from Atlanta. The City had to start fining people to get the scooters off the sidewalks. When I worked in midtown I’d have to step over scooters lying on the streets.
- vkou 7y ago
  Maybe if scooters could be parked for free on nearly any curb, like cars, you wouldn't be stepping over them.
  - wil421 7y ago
    Where on earth do you have to pay for scooter parking? Scooter parking is free. Slamming them down sideways without using a kick stand is free unless a cop sees you.
    - streblo 7y ago
      Riders don't have to pay for them, but the scooter operators sure do.
FartyMcFarter 7y ago
Thank $deity. I'm tired of seeing these humongous bikes taking up space on sidewalks, and threatening to fall onto unsuspecting people and animals. Here's hoping they fail in other markets as well.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  If you have a cane or a wheelchair then good luck when you come across a pile of bikes on the sidewalk. Even one of those JUMP bikes tipped over can be a problem. I used to see this all the time in Santa Monica. Bikes lined up close together would either fall like dominoes or get kicked over by hoodlums, blocking walking paths or potential parking spots. What's hilarious is the number of believers willing to say about anything to defend the the almighty bicycle, no matter how obstructive and unsightly they can be. No, no! A pile of fallen over bikes and scooters isn't unsightly! Cars driving on roads designed for them is what's unsightly! Uh huh. (look up previous HN threads and you'll see that exact argument) If there's one thing I'm looking forward to with the next economic recession, it's the disappearance of these bikes and scooters.
  - martinald 7y ago
    Compared to a car parking on the sidewalk and totally blocking it which happens so often?
    - FartyMcFarter 7y ago
      That is much more rare than lime bikes on sidewalks, at least here. Also, cars on sidewalks don't tend to fall on people's feet by getting slightly knocked over.
    - ravenstine 7y ago
      I don't think I've ever seen that where I live. The closest I've seen is in suburban neighborhoods where people don't park their car all the way into their driveway, but even that's pretty rare.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
fabioborellini 7y ago
If it is impossible to run a profitable e-scooter rental service even with the current terms, imagine how much money the companies would burn if they could not externalise the costs of accidents to riders' insurance companies and taxpayers (in locales with public healthcare). In my home town the scooters have almost exclusively been used to replace walking. They have not reduced the market share of other means of motorised transport. People walk less because of scooters. There has been a notable amount of broken bones and even a few cases of severe brain trauma suffered by riders, and taxpayers end up paying for everything. So I could argue that all the effects on the society have been negative.
- jandrese 7y ago
  I'd expect them to cannibalize taxi/bus/subway rides to some degree. They seem like a pretty good alternative for people who want to travel some middling distance like a dozen blocks that would be a somewhat lengthy walk but a fairly short taxi ride. Plus it could definitely be faster if the traffic is congested.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Once you start getting to the 20 minute mark the scooter ride stops being so cheap, and you were probably better off getting an uber and going farther and faster for about the same price. I don't think it can replace the subways as they are used here in la. A scooter can't go from downtown to hollywood in 20 minutes; not even cars hit the 70mph the subway does in this city.
    - bergie 7y ago
      In theory that's the point of scooters like this. Take public transportation to as close as it takes you, and then use a scooter for the "last mile". I think that's fine for those averse to walking. I personally prefer to walk everywhere reasonable (<1h walking time)
    - jandrese 7y ago
      If it is taking you 20 minutes to go a dozen blocks on a motorized scooter then maybe it is the wrong tool for the job.
jMyles 7y ago
I wonder how many startup scooters have been thrown away. Have we filled a stadium yet? Will there someday be a museum located at a landfill which is full of these things? I generally think that this kind of final mile solution is a good one, but I can't help but feel like a lot of these scooters are experiencing very short service lives.
- ChrisKingWebDev 7y ago
  Not exactly the same, but these photos are pretty mindblowing: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/08/china-abandoned-bike-share-graveyards/566576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/08/china-abandoned-bi...
nahikoa 7y ago
The VC funded scooter rental companies don't bear the most significant cost of scooters, public health. Quality studies outlining the risk and costs are scarce, but there are some: https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Health/Epidemiology/APH_Dockless_Electric_Scooter_Study_5-2-19.pdf https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Health... Key points: 15% of scooter riders who seek medical attention have a traumatic brain injury. This doesn't include those transported by EMS. 63% of injured riders had ridden an scooter 9 or more times before. Perhaps e-scooters are safe in some markets, but in many they are a death trap that the vendors will never have to pay for.
- quotemstr 7y ago
  > 15% of scooter riders who seek medical attention This statistic is meaningless without a base rate.
- henryfjordan 7y ago
  They will once the lawsuits make their way through the legal system. TBI lawsuits are big business. Also wear a helmet if you are going be on the roads in the US!
- rory096 7y ago
  Cars kill 37,000 people in the United States each year.
rory096 7y ago
Curious how many of the scooter-haters in this thread drive cars daily. In my experience they're a huge boon to walkable, car-free or car-lite lifestyles, and all but useless in the suburban parking-minimum wastelands that characterize most of the United States' postwar built environment.
- ProAm 7y ago
  It's makes urban sidewalks look like they are strewn with litter. It's the reason why Im glad to see they are banned. They make walkable cities less walkable.
  - asdff 7y ago
    The civil engineers in downtown santa monica have engineered a brilliant solution: stencil a scooter and box on the sidewalk. This is some serious space grade stuff considering JPL isn't too far away, unsure if we have the engineering capabilities to apply this solution in other cities. Better ban them outright, right? In all seriousness, the apps let cities geofence arbitrary areas. You could just spray paint an orderly and designated parking spot on the corner and have the app only let you lock up if you are parked in the designated parking spot, validated with the photo you take after the ride.
    - ProAm 7y ago
      I agree there is probably a solution for this, but these companies could have discussed this with the cities prior to dumping thousands of discarded scooters everywhere. It's being a bad neighbor to force the city to deal with a problem it didnt have last week because you have VC funding and dont mind littering. So yes, Id rather ban them and subsequently address the issue.
      - asdff 7y ago
        That's like any technology, it appears then you regulate bad behavior. Parking enforcement didn't appear before cars were invented and were suddenly parking on every free surface with no order or logic, getting in the way of pedestrians.
rdiddly 7y ago
Can we please just make this (scooters, bikes) public transit? Not profitable - check Good for society - check In need of regulation - check
- asdff 7y ago
  I wish, but corruption and graft has lead LA's metrobikes to cost something like $2500 each and that program is quickly spiraling out of existence. Greedy contractors and privatization aside, you need infrastructure for transit, and for these scooters and bikes that means building bike lanes. Otherwise, it's no surprise that ridership is declining as they aren't safe on roads with LA drivers who kill more pedestrians every year. The LA bike lane network is currently an embarrassment with little political support for improvement, in fact there are councilmen actively working to remove bike lanes from their neighborhoods.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    >I wish, but corruption and graft has lead LA's metrobikes to cost something like $2500 each That doesn't seem too excessive to me. What do you think would be a more reasonable price for purchasing an electric bike* with a fair degree of customization and a corresponding maintenance contract? * IIRC the bikes have integrated NFC readers for your TAP card, built in U-locks, probably GPS, and that sweet sweet Metro paint job.
    - henryfjordan 7y ago
      They had a really ugly green Hulu color for a while too. I would hope that Hulu paid for those bikes.
    - asdff 7y ago
      Well they are neither maintained nor electric for the most part
      - Rebelgecko 7y ago
        Only the pedal assist ones cost 2500, the non-electric ones (still have batteries, but just for internal stuff) cost like $1200 each
jackschultz 7y ago
This has to depend so much on city size. I'm in Milwaukee and they're perfect for here, because with everything so compact in the downtown area, if I'm meeting people to get food, hang out, or even go to Bucks games, it's so easy to get a scooter to get there rather than walk, uber, or the quick rent bikes we have. I was just in Montevideo and Buenos Aires and we took the scooters in Montevideo, but even that city was almost too big, and also the streets different from what I'm used to making using them in the roads difficult. As for Lime scooters compared to the other brands, I just pick the closest one to me; I haven't picked a favorite.
tempsy 7y ago
wow I'm really surprised to see San Diego on the list of "underperforming" markets that was cut. seems like a huge red flag for the industry if that's true. no city have I been to had more scooters everywhere than San Diego. and the city has been very accommodating in the sense that they created designated scooter parking areas. it's almost the perfect city for scooters: almost always warm/sunny, very flat, not great public transportation infra. left wondering what happened.
- gkoberger 7y ago
  I think that's the problem... there's a huge market for scooters, but there's so many competitors in San Diego. I love scooters, and even I'm annoyed by how hard it is to walk around SD without tripping over PILES of them.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    seems like a lose lose for the industry then. there are a few cities out there that are optimized for scooters year round like San Diego, and the barrier of entry is too low, and then no one wins because there's too much competition.
    - asdff 7y ago
      It's not weather you need, it's infrastructure. Scooters clogging sidewalks is an infrastructure problem. Scooters having to deal with car traffic is an infrastructure problem. The solution to these infrastructure problems are to get a can of paint, make a bike lane, and a scooter parking space. Let the app geofence, and voila, a functional transit network that avoids all the annoyances everyone states ad infinitum until local council bans them.
      - tempsy 7y ago
        not sure what this has anything to do with my previous comment... i observed San Diego being relatively accommodating to scooters, including created designated parking, on top of being a city is flat and usually sunny and warm - both things that are good for scooter demand, and wondered aloud why Lime still couldn't make it work.
aminulislam1266 7y ago
unforeseen is the army of charging slaves that patrol the city at 4 AM for a few extra dollars at their own expense. E-scooters launched through shop windows and into streets after bars close.
Hasz 7y ago
This whole model is incredibly, impossibly, flawed. 9/10 times, my net displacement for the day is 0. If my net displacement is zero, I would prefer to own the medium I'm using to move. Bike, car, scooter etc. Only exception is stuff with really high capital costs, like planes and trains, in which case I pay a small fee to avoid owning a railway or airline. For scooters, there are no high capitals costs; the cost of a scooter is laughably low. It's sold as a quicker-than-walking, less-hassle-than-a-car last mile solution, but again, 9/10 of my trips are 0 displacement, so, why not just buy the scooter outright? Cheaper, safer, faster (I know where it is, no need to walk to it, etc). They only way Lime, Bird etc survive is by legislation. Lobby for scooter licensure, buy up all the licenses, and become the taxi industry (except for scooters, and you have to drive!) What an ironic loop. At this point, the only reason to fund these guys is FOMO.
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  I totally agree with you, but just to play devil's advocate... you can't have, that which you don't own, stolen. Which can be pretty valuable. However, this doesn't help much with the larger model. Cars have insurance for example, and that more or less works out, right?
- raiyu 7y ago
  I was in Lisbon for Web Summit and the scooter on the streets was a great way to get around. So for none locals it's definitely a benefit for short trips and for the fun that it brings doing it in a group of people. However, doing it on a day to day basis you can quickly spend more in a couple of months then just buying a scooter. The only benefit is not having to lug it with you, but not sure if that offsets the higher costs of non-ownership.
- the_imp 7y ago
  The whole model of needing to own your own transportation devices is flawed. 9/10 times, I'm moving from one location with many other people in it to another location with many other people. I would prefer not needing to own any medium in order to move between them, but instead be able to use a public service to do so. Bus, tram, metro, citybike, scooter. I'd really rather not own stuff with really high capital costs, like cars. At this point, the only reason to own anything more expensive than a bike is bad city planning and infrastructure.
cityofdelusion 7y ago
I worked in downtown San Antonio, one of the markets being pulled from. Scooters were very popular when they first arrived, but pretty much none of my coworkers used them any more. The main issues are cost and time. It takes too long to open the app and get riding and it costs too much. Downtown here is also pretty walkable, so the high costs don’t make much sense when I could be getting exercise. The scooters are also fairly miserable when it’s 104F in the summer and 40F in the winter, making them very seasonal. They are banned on sidewalks here, but I had no issues riding them in the slow downtown SA traffic.
yalogin 7y ago
At a high level this will be sold as “Uber for cycles” but it’s not. They own the hardware which makes it a really tough business to be in. TBH I don’t why even U ee is in this space. There isn’t enough volume outside of tourist heavy sites to justify it, even in tourist heavy places I don’t know how attractive an option this is what not attractive to a select group.
gbronner 7y ago
Surprised that the companies haven't either merged or coordinated to limit competition in each city. I expect that cities can support a limited number of scooter companies, but every single vc backed startup.
jordank 7y ago
One factor missing from most analyses of scooter companies are the sheer cost of insuring scooters long term. Insurance rates are likely based on the assumption that scooter companies can disclaim against any user damages (injury, death, etc) but companies can't disclaim against gross negligence and there are many, many legal actions against Lime and other scooter companies (disclaimer/source: I'm a plaintiff in one of these actions). Failure rates are known to be fairly high and accidents are common [1]. I was on a Lime that had a brake failure and I was pretty badly injured. Lime themselves have indicated that the failure rate was around .00045%, but that's still 450 brake failures per million rides [2]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/scooter-use-is-rising-in-major-cities-so-are-trips-to-the-emergency-room/2018/09/06/53d6a8d4-abd6-11e8-a8d7-0f63ab8b1370_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/scooter-use-... [2] https://www.li.me/blog/safety-update-february-2019 https://www.li.me/blog/safety-update-february-2019
spondyl 7y ago
Purely anecdotal but in my mind, one of the biggest barriers would be public sentiment? I remember when Lime launched here in New Zealand and suddenly, all of these scooters appeared on the footpaths. Over time, they would go from nice, neat rows of four to being discarded on the pavement, becoming obstacles to walk around. Obviously, it's the customers who have left them strewn on the pavement but in my mind, I associate that untidiness with Lime. Without their business, there wouldn't be scooters freely available to be left lying around. Anyway, personally, I'm glad to see Lime and all of the other scooter businesses go away. It felt like more of a fad that would go away but I say that not having used one either. I'd rather walk and listen to some podcasts. On a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed this talk about e-scooter security from Matthew Garrett last year: Part 1: https://youtu.be/wU5ghVvwfGE https://youtu.be/wU5ghVvwfGE Part 2: https://youtu.be/BMQnxugfwUI https://youtu.be/BMQnxugfwUI
mixmastamyk 7y ago
Indeed why I’ve never signed up for these vehicle rentals. Every week there is different set of companies in my neighborhood. If they were all on a single reservation system state or nationwide I’d be a lot more interested.
itqwertz 7y ago
Good! These scooters are at best a novelty and at worst a potential vector of serious injury. I know at least three people who have been injured through recklessness or malfunction. They also tend to be dirty. They’re a nuisance in populated areas like San Diego (where I love). People already act as if no one else is on the road with cars and bikes. Scooters appeal to (inner) children, and they can really bring out the indifference in aggressive riders. Drunk scooting is basically a license to be a prick. The business model was terrible from the beginning. Like should have learned from its bicycle department (as well as competition) that there simply isn’t much money in this market.
- hyperdunc 7y ago
  I think they're great. The issue is that most places don't have the infrastructure for them. Bicycles and scooters should have a dedicated path so people don't have to ride them either on the road or the footpath.
matmann2001 7y ago
After all the lobbying they did in my city to get a helmet law exemption and then to get the city to install designated scooter parking and no-go zones...
lostsock 7y ago
I used a Lime scooter in Brisbane Australia when I there for a wedding last year, it was a great experience. Easy to find, quick to get around, convenient and inexpensive. Saw both tourists and locals using them and they were always placed neatly and out of the way. The weather in Brisbane means they'd be in use pretty much year-round, such a great idea!
peter303 7y ago
$500 wholesale a scooter, $2 average revenue a ride, $5 a day to juice them. If one lasts several hundred rides it might make a profit.
danans 7y ago
Until and unless these replace cars on the road, which is unlikely due to weather and other cases like grocery shopping, they will be a nuisance for everyone. A better solution for private transport over short distances would be low speed neighborhood electric vehicles (basically, big golf carts) that can carry more people and stuff, and coexist with cars, instead of taking pedestrian and bike space. They might not be as safe as cars, but they are safer than the scooters.
whalabi 7y ago
Does this mean there's a whole lot of cheap scooters being sold somewhere? Any idea where?
m0zg 7y ago
For the life of me I can't see why people wouldn't just steal them. It's literally just standing there, not chained to anything, sometimes for days on end. Sure you probably won't be able to ride it, but even as parts it's likely worth more than a day's worth of heroin, which dooms their business model right from the start.

238 points by Deimorz 7y ago

ourmandave 7y ago

That's a blow. There's not a lot of companies employing divers in the gig economy.

kpennell 7y ago
scooters not cars though...no divers needed
bransonf 7y ago
Sarcasm? The vast majority of gig-jobs are driving. Ride share and delivery make up the obvious lion’s share of gig work.
- bhandziuk 7y ago
  divers. Like for getting bikes and scooters from lakes and rivers when the drunkards toss them over a bridge.
jascii 7y ago
While I see plenty of reports of divers pulling scooters from bodies of water, these are usually divers employed by the local sheriff's office or fire department. It seems like the insurance/liability issues involved would be limiting for your average "gig economy" company.. That said, walk into any marina and you'd have plenty of gigs cleaning hulls..

twoheadedboy 7y ago

> He said that projection is based in part on improvements to Lime scooters' longevity, which in 2019 went from from six months to about 14 months. That still seems like an incredibly short amount of time.

chrisco255 7y ago
14 months for the abuse these things take? I'm impressed they last more than 90 days to be honest.

vkou 7y ago

Is this because you can't make money off short-term scooter rentals (Because the cost of providing this service is > what customers are willing to pay), or because other startups ate their lunch? My wife is seriously considering a scooter (Even a non-electrified one) for her commute (2-3 days a week, 5 miles) - and I can't see a world where we'd rent one on the daily, as opposed to owning. My uninformed guess is: A problem with the rental model is the colossal inefficiency of having to pay people with cars and vans to drive around, and collect + charge scooters at the end of the day. This is a huge waste of resources and human time. Even with VCs p------ a firehose of money into the market, most of it ends up going to drivers, rather than customers.

bosie 7y ago
5 miles one way? Genuine question but why would you want to commute 5 miles on a scooter multiple times a week compared to a bicycle?
- ckuhl 7y ago
  I think the biggest advantage scooters have over ebikes is that for a lot of people, there’s a place to store a scooter at both ends of a commute (under a desk) but not necessarily secure bike storage.
  - jxramos 7y ago
    Exactly, I'm actually considering owning a scooter specifically for those situations where I don't have a secure place to store the bike at the other end of travel or during some interval.
  - rocketpastsix 7y ago
    Not only that, but as a cyclist who took scooters to the office back when I worked in one, the main advantage was when I used a scooter I didn't show up sweaty. It doesn't matter how slow you pedal, in the American Southeast, just being outside in the summer makes you sweat. A lot of places in this area don't have offices with showers in them. A scooter let me spend time outside without having to end up being a mess.

ghaff 7y ago

I do a lot of travel and, anecdotally, there seems to be a huge variation in popularity of rental scooters by city (even just considering the cities where one or more companies operate). Wide bike/pedestrian paths are probably one factor and weather is another. But they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious, at least to me.

jonas21 7y ago
> they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious I think a lot of this has to do with regulation. Some cities actively encouraged scooters and bikes, some took a hands-off approach, and others banned or restricted them to the level where it was difficult to operate. You can really see the effect of this in San Diego, which at first welcomed the bikes and scooters, then reversed course and banned them in a lot of places [1]. Several of the companies left town after that happened, and you see a lot fewer bikes and scooters around now. It's still the same city, same weather, and there are more bike lanes than there were two years ago. The only thing that changed is the regulation. [1] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/2019-10-14/new-rules-shaping-scooter-use-in-san-diego https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/...
- arrosenberg 7y ago
  I don't remember welcoming them, so much as they proliferated over the course of a few months. They were so "popular" that they were being left all over the place to the point where it was widely regarded as hazardous. Companies in this space need to take more responsibility for the impact on the community and environment - regulation didn't kill them in San Diego, the companies themselves did.
- BrentOzar 7y ago
  > You can really see the effect of this in San Diego, which at first welcomed the bikes and scooters, then reversed course and banned them in a lot of places I'm in San Diego, and that's exactly what happened. I live downtown, and at first, scooters were my favorite way to get around. Then the city forced the scooter vendors to configure no-ride zones, 3mph speed limit zones (seriously, you can walk faster), and no-parking zones inside their apps, and geofence them. Overnight, the downtown scooter market just dried up. I stopped using all scooters downtown because of this, not just Lime, and since the regulation kicked in, I can't see any scooter company making it in downtown San Diego. The scooters just disappeared.

hinkley 7y ago

Leaves 12 markets and lays off 8 people per market? For a company with a physical product and inventory, 8 people per city seems like somewhere in the neighborhood of sobriety, possibly verging on stingy. Not the sort of excess we so often find in a tech company that is experiencing layoffs.

cnorthwood 7y ago
They may also have "independent contractors" to do the work
- roywiggins 7y ago
  The guys who retrieve the scooters for these kinds of companies are "independent contractors." https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/15/18267128/lime-electric-scooter-charging-juicers-harvesting-business https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/15/18267128/lime-electric-sc...
- kortilla 7y ago
  “Juicers”
- hinkley 7y ago
  Ah, right. That does skew those numbers quite a bit.
hiccuphippo 7y ago
This is not counting all the people they "employ" to service their scooters. Hopefully the market is big enough to accommodate them into the competition.
tempsy 7y ago
companies like Uber, Lime, Bird, etc. have a lot of small regional offices in different cities that mostly employ operations and local marketing people that handle the grunt work with running these types of city-based companies. These aren't typical "tech" jobs and not typical "tech" offices.

TacticalTable 7y ago

Of the e-scooter startups I've tried, Lime is my favorite. In my smaller city (Indianapolis) we just have Bird and Lime, and Bird's restrictions on hours, locations, and parking make them very difficult to use (They turn themselves off if they leave their range, and many pieces of downtown are considered 'out of bounds'). Meanwhile, the Limes are better distributed around the city, easier to park, and have much more generous boundaries. Bird has the stronger brand recognition, but that's about it. I'm surprised that it was warmer climate cities that underperformed in the US, because I would have expected those to have a much better chance for profit, as cold winter seasons dramatically reduce scooter usage. Too much competition?

ASinclair 7y ago
> I'm surprised that it was warmer climate cities that underperformed in the US, because I would have expected those to have a much better chance for profit, as cold winter seasons dramatically reduce scooter usage. Too much competition? I was surprised about this too. Though, from my anecdotal experience, there are a ton of micromobility companies operating in San Diego.
- jarcoal 7y ago
  I recently visited San Diego and was absolutely blown away by how many scooter companies were operating there, and how many unused scooters I saw lying around.
  - lame-robot-hoax 7y ago
    There’s a ton in Denver that’s for sure. Bird, Lime, Uber/Jump, Razor, and Lyft just off the top of my head. There’s pretty much at least one or so parked on every corner in the downtown area.
- munificent 7y ago
  I wonder how much of this is because warmer climate cities have greater homeless and/or drug addict problems. Here in Seattle, I saw lots of trashed Lime bikes and lots of unsavory folks using them, often with enough stuff piled onto them to imply they had forcibly unlocked them and were using them long-term. I ran into a couple of managers at Lime once and they said vandalism and theft was a big problem.

jeffnappi 7y ago

Lime has the worst bikes on the planet - they are complete garbage compared to the Uber/JUMP bikes (and probably others). The Lime bikes seemed to constantly be falling apart and were actually pretty terrifying to ride. On the other hand, the JUMP bikes feel very robust and I feel safe riding them. I would rather walk half a mile to find a JUMP bike than ride a Lime bike. No wonder they are failing. Source: Rode both Lime and Uber JUMP bikes in Seattle (rode a JUMP bike twice last night)

jeppebemad 7y ago
In copenhagen Lime is the most robust (and albeit clunky) of the 5-6 brands present. It seems they are the same as in your town. Wonder why our experience differ so much?
- jeffnappi 7y ago
  Maybe because Americans treat the bikes poorly compared to the civilized folks of Denmark ;) The JUMP bikes are just better made by a wide margin and seem to handle the abuse well - https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/london-electric-bikes-tested-uber-jump-bikes-lime-bikes-a4155026.html https://www.standard.co.uk/tech/london-electric-bikes-tested...
- Symbiote 7y ago
  GP has used Lime e-bicycles, but you've used Lime scooters. Example Lime e-bicycle: https://road.cc/content/news/252967-london-gets-its-first-dockless-e-bike-hire-scheme-lime https://road.cc/content/news/252967-london-gets-its-first-do...
013a 7y ago
Same story with their scooters IMO. I would rather walk a block or two and find a Bird than settle for a Lime. On at least one occassion my options were Grab a Lime or walk 10 blocks; I walked. Though, I feel like the reasoning is opposite for the scooters; they're absolutely huge vehicles that were clearly built to last in the harsh environments they're deployed in, and in doing so gained a ton of weight and volume. They're slow. The brakes are often so strong that they could cause riders to loose balance from the negative acceleration. They manuver so poorly that I feel unsafe while riding them. The big reason why I love the gen-1 Bird scooters, as unreliable as they are, is because they're so damn nimble, I have zero issues taking super-tight turns and weaves, and often that's necessary in urban environments just to protect yourself from the hazards of broken roads or cars. The newest gen Bird scooters strike a decent balance between being lightweight, fast, and (I assume) durable to the extreme environment.

baxtr 7y ago

I counted seven different scooter companies in my town recently. The party had to end at one point...

jandrese 7y ago
It's just like 3D printers a few years ago. Dozens of companies spring up around the technology and gradually attrition down to a the handful of most successful ones. A more direct parallel might be all of the Hoverboard clones that flooded the market a few years ago. Whenever something is new and hot and the barrier to entry isn't too high you'll get an explosion of startups trying to make their name.
- baxtr 7y ago
  Yes, I agree. The big difference is I think: all of these seven startups needed a huuuge amount of capital to start in various cities.

TaylorAlexander 7y ago

Okay so how do I get a cheap e-scooter? Or will they just trash the still-working hardware?

dole 7y ago
Check into police impoundment and auctions in your area.
rtkwe 7y ago
They'll be collected and sold through an auction company for liquidation probably or redistributed to other markets.
asdff 7y ago
I see a lot on craigslist for well under retail. Occasionally converted birds that work off the network crop up. That's the cheapest way, $30 on aliexpress then you just find the best looking bird you can.

bransonf 7y ago

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to maintain any profitability, and the demand already sucks. Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation?

samatman 7y ago
Too much money, chasing not enough alpha.
john_moscow 7y ago
>Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation? Because VCs get paid from selling the shares to the public. So as long as a general unsophisticated investor is expected to buy in, it's a good deal for a VC, even if the underlying business model is laughable.
- texasbigdata 7y ago
  While never having been on one due to no helmets being provided, in Denver and in Dallas and in Austin they arguably revolutionized the city core and how younger people get around. For better and worse. And while not fully diligent on this, isn't Uber still not profitable on a unit economic basis? And they are mature and public. Perhaps that statement isn't true but it provides one justification for investing in scooters
  - bransonf 7y ago
    You are correct about Uber not being profitable. They’re burning cash quickly. And if you look at market performance, they’re not where they expected to be. Furthermore, they’re fighting things like employee unionization (See California) which will increase their cost. And Uber is fundamentally different. It’s not seasonal, and the costs fall mainly on drivers rather than the company. Investors are hopeful on Uber, but I bet if a scooter company tried to go public right now, it would get eaten alive.

irjustin 7y ago

I use Lime scooters in SF. Too many scooters aren't fully charged in the morning near Market St - I wonder if the charging incentives are being slashed. Separately, it makes sense that an additional cash infusion is unrealistic at this point. Post WeWork decimation, large D, E, F rounds will be increasingly difficult to close as we go through 2020. Profitability is the right move. Whether it's possible or not... Best of luck to Lime.

wil421 7y ago

Good riddance from Atlanta. The City had to start fining people to get the scooters off the sidewalks. When I worked in midtown I’d have to step over scooters lying on the streets.

vkou 7y ago
Maybe if scooters could be parked for free on nearly any curb, like cars, you wouldn't be stepping over them.
- wil421 7y ago
  Where on earth do you have to pay for scooter parking? Scooter parking is free. Slamming them down sideways without using a kick stand is free unless a cop sees you.
  - streblo 7y ago
    Riders don't have to pay for them, but the scooter operators sure do.

FartyMcFarter 7y ago

Thank $deity. I'm tired of seeing these humongous bikes taking up space on sidewalks, and threatening to fall onto unsuspecting people and animals. Here's hoping they fail in other markets as well.

ravenstine 7y ago
If you have a cane or a wheelchair then good luck when you come across a pile of bikes on the sidewalk. Even one of those JUMP bikes tipped over can be a problem. I used to see this all the time in Santa Monica. Bikes lined up close together would either fall like dominoes or get kicked over by hoodlums, blocking walking paths or potential parking spots. What's hilarious is the number of believers willing to say about anything to defend the the almighty bicycle, no matter how obstructive and unsightly they can be. No, no! A pile of fallen over bikes and scooters isn't unsightly! Cars driving on roads designed for them is what's unsightly! Uh huh. (look up previous HN threads and you'll see that exact argument) If there's one thing I'm looking forward to with the next economic recession, it's the disappearance of these bikes and scooters.
- martinald 7y ago
  Compared to a car parking on the sidewalk and totally blocking it which happens so often?
  - FartyMcFarter 7y ago
    That is much more rare than lime bikes on sidewalks, at least here. Also, cars on sidewalks don't tend to fall on people's feet by getting slightly knocked over.
  - ravenstine 7y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen that where I live. The closest I've seen is in suburban neighborhoods where people don't park their car all the way into their driveway, but even that's pretty rare.
- Symbiote 7y ago

fabioborellini 7y ago

If it is impossible to run a profitable e-scooter rental service even with the current terms, imagine how much money the companies would burn if they could not externalise the costs of accidents to riders' insurance companies and taxpayers (in locales with public healthcare). In my home town the scooters have almost exclusively been used to replace walking. They have not reduced the market share of other means of motorised transport. People walk less because of scooters. There has been a notable amount of broken bones and even a few cases of severe brain trauma suffered by riders, and taxpayers end up paying for everything. So I could argue that all the effects on the society have been negative.

jandrese 7y ago
I'd expect them to cannibalize taxi/bus/subway rides to some degree. They seem like a pretty good alternative for people who want to travel some middling distance like a dozen blocks that would be a somewhat lengthy walk but a fairly short taxi ride. Plus it could definitely be faster if the traffic is congested.
- asdff 7y ago
  Once you start getting to the 20 minute mark the scooter ride stops being so cheap, and you were probably better off getting an uber and going farther and faster for about the same price. I don't think it can replace the subways as they are used here in la. A scooter can't go from downtown to hollywood in 20 minutes; not even cars hit the 70mph the subway does in this city.
  - bergie 7y ago
    In theory that's the point of scooters like this. Take public transportation to as close as it takes you, and then use a scooter for the "last mile". I think that's fine for those averse to walking. I personally prefer to walk everywhere reasonable (<1h walking time)
  - jandrese 7y ago
    If it is taking you 20 minutes to go a dozen blocks on a motorized scooter then maybe it is the wrong tool for the job.

jMyles 7y ago

I wonder how many startup scooters have been thrown away. Have we filled a stadium yet? Will there someday be a museum located at a landfill which is full of these things? I generally think that this kind of final mile solution is a good one, but I can't help but feel like a lot of these scooters are experiencing very short service lives.

ChrisKingWebDev 7y ago
Not exactly the same, but these photos are pretty mindblowing: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/08/china-abandoned-bike-share-graveyards/566576/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/08/china-abandoned-bi...

nahikoa 7y ago

The VC funded scooter rental companies don't bear the most significant cost of scooters, public health. Quality studies outlining the risk and costs are scarce, but there are some: https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Health/Epidemiology/APH_Dockless_Electric_Scooter_Study_5-2-19.pdf https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Health... Key points: 15% of scooter riders who seek medical attention have a traumatic brain injury. This doesn't include those transported by EMS. 63% of injured riders had ridden an scooter 9 or more times before. Perhaps e-scooters are safe in some markets, but in many they are a death trap that the vendors will never have to pay for.

quotemstr 7y ago
> 15% of scooter riders who seek medical attention This statistic is meaningless without a base rate.
henryfjordan 7y ago
They will once the lawsuits make their way through the legal system. TBI lawsuits are big business. Also wear a helmet if you are going be on the roads in the US!
rory096 7y ago
Cars kill 37,000 people in the United States each year.

rory096 7y ago

Curious how many of the scooter-haters in this thread drive cars daily. In my experience they're a huge boon to walkable, car-free or car-lite lifestyles, and all but useless in the suburban parking-minimum wastelands that characterize most of the United States' postwar built environment.

ProAm 7y ago
It's makes urban sidewalks look like they are strewn with litter. It's the reason why Im glad to see they are banned. They make walkable cities less walkable.
- asdff 7y ago
  The civil engineers in downtown santa monica have engineered a brilliant solution: stencil a scooter and box on the sidewalk. This is some serious space grade stuff considering JPL isn't too far away, unsure if we have the engineering capabilities to apply this solution in other cities. Better ban them outright, right? In all seriousness, the apps let cities geofence arbitrary areas. You could just spray paint an orderly and designated parking spot on the corner and have the app only let you lock up if you are parked in the designated parking spot, validated with the photo you take after the ride.
  - ProAm 7y ago
    I agree there is probably a solution for this, but these companies could have discussed this with the cities prior to dumping thousands of discarded scooters everywhere. It's being a bad neighbor to force the city to deal with a problem it didnt have last week because you have VC funding and dont mind littering. So yes, Id rather ban them and subsequently address the issue.
    - asdff 7y ago
      That's like any technology, it appears then you regulate bad behavior. Parking enforcement didn't appear before cars were invented and were suddenly parking on every free surface with no order or logic, getting in the way of pedestrians.

rdiddly 7y ago

Can we please just make this (scooters, bikes) public transit? Not profitable - check Good for society - check In need of regulation - check

asdff 7y ago
I wish, but corruption and graft has lead LA's metrobikes to cost something like $2500 each and that program is quickly spiraling out of existence. Greedy contractors and privatization aside, you need infrastructure for transit, and for these scooters and bikes that means building bike lanes. Otherwise, it's no surprise that ridership is declining as they aren't safe on roads with LA drivers who kill more pedestrians every year. The LA bike lane network is currently an embarrassment with little political support for improvement, in fact there are councilmen actively working to remove bike lanes from their neighborhoods.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  >I wish, but corruption and graft has lead LA's metrobikes to cost something like $2500 each That doesn't seem too excessive to me. What do you think would be a more reasonable price for purchasing an electric bike* with a fair degree of customization and a corresponding maintenance contract? * IIRC the bikes have integrated NFC readers for your TAP card, built in U-locks, probably GPS, and that sweet sweet Metro paint job.
  - henryfjordan 7y ago
    They had a really ugly green Hulu color for a while too. I would hope that Hulu paid for those bikes.
  - asdff 7y ago
    Well they are neither maintained nor electric for the most part
    - Rebelgecko 7y ago
      Only the pedal assist ones cost 2500, the non-electric ones (still have batteries, but just for internal stuff) cost like $1200 each

jackschultz 7y ago

This has to depend so much on city size. I'm in Milwaukee and they're perfect for here, because with everything so compact in the downtown area, if I'm meeting people to get food, hang out, or even go to Bucks games, it's so easy to get a scooter to get there rather than walk, uber, or the quick rent bikes we have. I was just in Montevideo and Buenos Aires and we took the scooters in Montevideo, but even that city was almost too big, and also the streets different from what I'm used to making using them in the roads difficult. As for Lime scooters compared to the other brands, I just pick the closest one to me; I haven't picked a favorite.

tempsy 7y ago

wow I'm really surprised to see San Diego on the list of "underperforming" markets that was cut. seems like a huge red flag for the industry if that's true. no city have I been to had more scooters everywhere than San Diego. and the city has been very accommodating in the sense that they created designated scooter parking areas. it's almost the perfect city for scooters: almost always warm/sunny, very flat, not great public transportation infra. left wondering what happened.

gkoberger 7y ago
I think that's the problem... there's a huge market for scooters, but there's so many competitors in San Diego. I love scooters, and even I'm annoyed by how hard it is to walk around SD without tripping over PILES of them.
- tempsy 7y ago
  seems like a lose lose for the industry then. there are a few cities out there that are optimized for scooters year round like San Diego, and the barrier of entry is too low, and then no one wins because there's too much competition.
  - asdff 7y ago
    It's not weather you need, it's infrastructure. Scooters clogging sidewalks is an infrastructure problem. Scooters having to deal with car traffic is an infrastructure problem. The solution to these infrastructure problems are to get a can of paint, make a bike lane, and a scooter parking space. Let the app geofence, and voila, a functional transit network that avoids all the annoyances everyone states ad infinitum until local council bans them.
    - tempsy 7y ago
      not sure what this has anything to do with my previous comment... i observed San Diego being relatively accommodating to scooters, including created designated parking, on top of being a city is flat and usually sunny and warm - both things that are good for scooter demand, and wondered aloud why Lime still couldn't make it work.

aminulislam1266 7y ago

unforeseen is the army of charging slaves that patrol the city at 4 AM for a few extra dollars at their own expense. E-scooters launched through shop windows and into streets after bars close.

Hasz 7y ago

This whole model is incredibly, impossibly, flawed. 9/10 times, my net displacement for the day is 0. If my net displacement is zero, I would prefer to own the medium I'm using to move. Bike, car, scooter etc. Only exception is stuff with really high capital costs, like planes and trains, in which case I pay a small fee to avoid owning a railway or airline. For scooters, there are no high capitals costs; the cost of a scooter is laughably low. It's sold as a quicker-than-walking, less-hassle-than-a-car last mile solution, but again, 9/10 of my trips are 0 displacement, so, why not just buy the scooter outright? Cheaper, safer, faster (I know where it is, no need to walk to it, etc). They only way Lime, Bird etc survive is by legislation. Lobby for scooter licensure, buy up all the licenses, and become the taxi industry (except for scooters, and you have to drive!) What an ironic loop. At this point, the only reason to fund these guys is FOMO.

nixpulvis 7y ago
I totally agree with you, but just to play devil's advocate... you can't have, that which you don't own, stolen. Which can be pretty valuable. However, this doesn't help much with the larger model. Cars have insurance for example, and that more or less works out, right?
raiyu 7y ago
I was in Lisbon for Web Summit and the scooter on the streets was a great way to get around. So for none locals it's definitely a benefit for short trips and for the fun that it brings doing it in a group of people. However, doing it on a day to day basis you can quickly spend more in a couple of months then just buying a scooter. The only benefit is not having to lug it with you, but not sure if that offsets the higher costs of non-ownership.
the_imp 7y ago
The whole model of needing to own your own transportation devices is flawed. 9/10 times, I'm moving from one location with many other people in it to another location with many other people. I would prefer not needing to own any medium in order to move between them, but instead be able to use a public service to do so. Bus, tram, metro, citybike, scooter. I'd really rather not own stuff with really high capital costs, like cars. At this point, the only reason to own anything more expensive than a bike is bad city planning and infrastructure.

cityofdelusion 7y ago

I worked in downtown San Antonio, one of the markets being pulled from. Scooters were very popular when they first arrived, but pretty much none of my coworkers used them any more. The main issues are cost and time. It takes too long to open the app and get riding and it costs too much. Downtown here is also pretty walkable, so the high costs don’t make much sense when I could be getting exercise. The scooters are also fairly miserable when it’s 104F in the summer and 40F in the winter, making them very seasonal. They are banned on sidewalks here, but I had no issues riding them in the slow downtown SA traffic.

yalogin 7y ago

At a high level this will be sold as “Uber for cycles” but it’s not. They own the hardware which makes it a really tough business to be in. TBH I don’t why even U ee is in this space. There isn’t enough volume outside of tourist heavy sites to justify it, even in tourist heavy places I don’t know how attractive an option this is what not attractive to a select group.

gbronner 7y ago

Surprised that the companies haven't either merged or coordinated to limit competition in each city. I expect that cities can support a limited number of scooter companies, but every single vc backed startup.

jordank 7y ago

One factor missing from most analyses of scooter companies are the sheer cost of insuring scooters long term. Insurance rates are likely based on the assumption that scooter companies can disclaim against any user damages (injury, death, etc) but companies can't disclaim against gross negligence and there are many, many legal actions against Lime and other scooter companies (disclaimer/source: I'm a plaintiff in one of these actions). Failure rates are known to be fairly high and accidents are common [1]. I was on a Lime that had a brake failure and I was pretty badly injured. Lime themselves have indicated that the failure rate was around .00045%, but that's still 450 brake failures per million rides [2]. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/scooter-use-is-rising-in-major-cities-so-are-trips-to-the-emergency-room/2018/09/06/53d6a8d4-abd6-11e8-a8d7-0f63ab8b1370_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/scooter-use-... [2] https://www.li.me/blog/safety-update-february-2019 https://www.li.me/blog/safety-update-february-2019

spondyl 7y ago

Purely anecdotal but in my mind, one of the biggest barriers would be public sentiment? I remember when Lime launched here in New Zealand and suddenly, all of these scooters appeared on the footpaths. Over time, they would go from nice, neat rows of four to being discarded on the pavement, becoming obstacles to walk around. Obviously, it's the customers who have left them strewn on the pavement but in my mind, I associate that untidiness with Lime. Without their business, there wouldn't be scooters freely available to be left lying around. Anyway, personally, I'm glad to see Lime and all of the other scooter businesses go away. It felt like more of a fad that would go away but I say that not having used one either. I'd rather walk and listen to some podcasts. On a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed this talk about e-scooter security from Matthew Garrett last year: Part 1: https://youtu.be/wU5ghVvwfGE https://youtu.be/wU5ghVvwfGE Part 2: https://youtu.be/BMQnxugfwUI https://youtu.be/BMQnxugfwUI

mixmastamyk 7y ago

Indeed why I’ve never signed up for these vehicle rentals. Every week there is different set of companies in my neighborhood. If they were all on a single reservation system state or nationwide I’d be a lot more interested.

itqwertz 7y ago

Good! These scooters are at best a novelty and at worst a potential vector of serious injury. I know at least three people who have been injured through recklessness or malfunction. They also tend to be dirty. They’re a nuisance in populated areas like San Diego (where I love). People already act as if no one else is on the road with cars and bikes. Scooters appeal to (inner) children, and they can really bring out the indifference in aggressive riders. Drunk scooting is basically a license to be a prick. The business model was terrible from the beginning. Like should have learned from its bicycle department (as well as competition) that there simply isn’t much money in this market.

hyperdunc 7y ago
I think they're great. The issue is that most places don't have the infrastructure for them. Bicycles and scooters should have a dedicated path so people don't have to ride them either on the road or the footpath.

matmann2001 7y ago

After all the lobbying they did in my city to get a helmet law exemption and then to get the city to install designated scooter parking and no-go zones...

lostsock 7y ago

I used a Lime scooter in Brisbane Australia when I there for a wedding last year, it was a great experience. Easy to find, quick to get around, convenient and inexpensive. Saw both tourists and locals using them and they were always placed neatly and out of the way. The weather in Brisbane means they'd be in use pretty much year-round, such a great idea!

peter303 7y ago

$500 wholesale a scooter, $2 average revenue a ride, $5 a day to juice them. If one lasts several hundred rides it might make a profit.

danans 7y ago

Until and unless these replace cars on the road, which is unlikely due to weather and other cases like grocery shopping, they will be a nuisance for everyone. A better solution for private transport over short distances would be low speed neighborhood electric vehicles (basically, big golf carts) that can carry more people and stuff, and coexist with cars, instead of taking pedestrian and bike space. They might not be as safe as cars, but they are safer than the scooters.

whalabi 7y ago

Does this mean there's a whole lot of cheap scooters being sold somewhere? Any idea where?

m0zg 7y ago

For the life of me I can't see why people wouldn't just steal them. It's literally just standing there, not chained to anything, sometimes for days on end. Sure you probably won't be able to ride it, but even as parts it's likely worth more than a day's worth of heroin, which dooms their business model right from the start.