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For those unaware -- men's sperm count has gone down 3% a year since we've started measuring. I see these two facts as potentially related and warranting signi

For those unaware -- men's sperm count has gone down 3% a year since we've started measuring. I see these two facts as potentially related and warranting significant investigation.

markdog12 7y ago
Not only that, but testosterone levels have been dropping in men for decades. Being that testosterone is essential to men's health and well-being, and they comprise 50% of people, you'd think society would care more about it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t... https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc-idUKKIM16976320061101 https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc...
- learnstats2 7y ago
  Curious if anyone can cite any equivalent research for women, or if it exists?
  - throwaway_tech 7y ago
    Girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier, the average is no 10 years old, whereas it was 15 last century, and significant percents (differs by race though) are hitting it at 7. Its true with boys to some extent as well according to studies. So at lease for boys/men, there is early onset of hormone production but an overall decrease in the hormone production.
    - swamp40 7y ago
      High Quality Organic Milk delayed/postponed this for two years (11-13) in our household. Just one datapoint, but we did it on advice from others. We switched from generic milk upon the first indications/hints.
      - eyegor 7y ago
        Genuinely, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Without scientific sources "high quality organic milk does x" might as well say snake oil. Unless I'm misreading your post, and you're not espousing snake oil.
        throwaway_tech 7y ago
        If I had to guess...I think he is suggesting the added hormones in food (dairy/milk specifically) have a link to early onset of puberty. It is my understanding both the hormones and antibiotics given to livestock do it fact have impact on the people that consume them.
      - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
        Very interesting, thanks for sharing
    - learnstats2 7y ago
      That's not equivalent - indeed, it's not research. Who has measured girls' hormones over time?
- shpongled 7y ago
  Last year I got my hormone levels checked for the first time (normal), and I'm going to continue to do so yearly to keep track. Given how important it is, it's really surprising to me that testosterone levels aren't part of regular health exams/bloodwork panels - I had to convince my doctor add it on.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    Because the only real fix is giving the patient testosterone which has very real stroke risks.
    - Axsuul 7y ago
      Citation? If you are deficient in testosterone, replacing it is giving your body what it needs.
      - draw_down 7y ago
        I found plenty of sources for that claim very easily using something called Google. Come on.
      - JamesBarney 7y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_replacement_therapy#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_replacement_therapy#A...
        Axsuul 7y ago
        There are also lots of conflicting studies like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26248567/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26248567/
    - nabla9 7y ago
      Only slightly increased risk in the first two years https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20190723/testosterone-therapy-may-threaten-the-heart https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20190723/testostero...
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  ---
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    > The phytoestrogen stuff that is popping up in other comments than your own seems a lot of BS, honestly It's hilarious that "soy boy theory" gets parroted so loudly on HN.
    - throwaway5752 7y ago
      ---
      - dang 7y ago
        Please stop.
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Caring about men's issues is literally an insult. I don't know why you'd think society would give a rip.
everdrive 7y ago
It'd actually be quite reassuring if a lot of this was due to body temperature, and not phytoestrogens.
- GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
  phytoestrogens suppress natural estrogen production because they partially bind to existing estrogen receptors. there was never any (serious) doubt that there was an issue
  - ced 7y ago
    There's some serious doubt on Wikipedia FWIW... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen#Males https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen#Males It is unclear if phytoestrogens have any effect on male sexuality, with conflicting results about the potential effects of isoflavones originating from soy. A 2010 meta-analysis of fifteen placebo-controlled studies said that "neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable testosterone concentrations in men."[31] Some studies showed that isoflavone supplementation had no effect on sperm concentration, count, or motility, and had no effects on testicular or ejaculate volume.[32][33] Sperm count decline and increasing rate of testicular cancers in the West may be linked to a higher presence of isoflavone phytoestrogens in the diet, but such a link has not been definitively proven.[34] Furthermore, there is some evidence that phytoestrogens may affect male fertility, but "further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn"
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - endothrowho333 7y ago
      Hi, human endocrine researcher here: Wikipedia is garbage for "controversial" medical topics -- it's even worse for many non-controversial biochemical processes (please take a look at the human alcohol metabolism graph... utter garbage!). Citing a few researcher's conclusions (NO! You do NOT do this!) is haphazard, it usually does NOT match the same conclusions one's peers would reach were they to review piece as a whole. Here's what easily deductively reproduceable with a cursory understanding of the systems involved (and digging through a lot of literature): > Phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors (YES) > Chemicals -- other than estrogens -- that bind to estrogen receptors are Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators > SERMs are NOT the same as estrogens, but they do increase certain estrogenic effects depending on their chemical structure (good: lipid profile, prostate stability; AND bad gynocomastia, electrolyte retention) > Each SERM has a specific amount of "power" (receptor affinity and corresponding gene expression, i.e how much it increases or decreases the expression of certain genes) > Soy, and plant products, contain many different phytoestrogens/SERMs, isoflavones are the strongest Now, onto the goodies: > The HPTA (Hpyothalmic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) controls hormone output > There are estrogen receptors (and others) in the hypothalmus > Suffice to say, Hypothalmic Hormonal receptors modulate the levels of circulating sex hormones in the body > When there is an increase of hormones in the body, the excess get bound to hypothalmic receptors, causing the hypothalmus to tell the Pitutary + Testes to produce less hormones OVERALL (FSH, LH, tesosterone, estrogen, etc.) > Less production of hormones is NOT necessarily bad - Estrogen is the most important hormone in women AND men (take a large amount of any aromatase inhibitor, i.e estrogen "killer," and you will feel a LOT worse than if you were to take an anti-androgen) > SERMs do decrease circulating hormone levels (by how much is dependent on many variables), due to negative feedback on the HPTA > Once again, this is NOT necessarily bad, because SERMs still bind to estrogen receptors and elicit estrogenic effects on the body A few for the road: > Healthy estrogen levels are vital to male libido (as is a proper estrogen:testosterone ratio, too little of either is bad) > Too little testosterone may also cause too little estrogen, because estrogen is produced in the male body primarily from aromatase (enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen) > FSH is involved in sperm production > LH is involved in testosterone production This is all the information you need to make an informed opinion on the whole topic. I'm sick of all sides involved. Pseudoscience and agenads, all of you!
agumonkey 7y ago
Bulls are also having fertility issue. Climate change is making progress in taming population issues.

For those unaware -- men's sperm count has gone down 3% a year since we've started measuring. I see these two facts as potentially related and warranting significant investigation.

markdog12 7y ago

Not only that, but testosterone levels have been dropping in men for decades. Being that testosterone is essential to men's health and well-being, and they comprise 50% of people, you'd think society would care more about it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t... https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc-idUKKIM16976320061101 https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc...

learnstats2 7y ago
Curious if anyone can cite any equivalent research for women, or if it exists?
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  Girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier, the average is no 10 years old, whereas it was 15 last century, and significant percents (differs by race though) are hitting it at 7. Its true with boys to some extent as well according to studies. So at lease for boys/men, there is early onset of hormone production but an overall decrease in the hormone production.
  - swamp40 7y ago
    High Quality Organic Milk delayed/postponed this for two years (11-13) in our household. Just one datapoint, but we did it on advice from others. We switched from generic milk upon the first indications/hints.
    - eyegor 7y ago
      Genuinely, I have no idea what you're trying to say. Without scientific sources "high quality organic milk does x" might as well say snake oil. Unless I'm misreading your post, and you're not espousing snake oil.
      - throwaway_tech 7y ago
        If I had to guess...I think he is suggesting the added hormones in food (dairy/milk specifically) have a link to early onset of puberty. It is my understanding both the hormones and antibiotics given to livestock do it fact have impact on the people that consume them.
    - aldoushuxley001 7y ago
      Very interesting, thanks for sharing
  - learnstats2 7y ago
    That's not equivalent - indeed, it's not research. Who has measured girls' hormones over time?
shpongled 7y ago
Last year I got my hormone levels checked for the first time (normal), and I'm going to continue to do so yearly to keep track. Given how important it is, it's really surprising to me that testosterone levels aren't part of regular health exams/bloodwork panels - I had to convince my doctor add it on.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Because the only real fix is giving the patient testosterone which has very real stroke risks.
  - Axsuul 7y ago
    Citation? If you are deficient in testosterone, replacing it is giving your body what it needs.
    - draw_down 7y ago
      I found plenty of sources for that claim very easily using something called Google. Come on.
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_replacement_therapy#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_replacement_therapy#A...
      - Axsuul 7y ago
        There are also lots of conflicting studies like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26248567/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26248567/
  - nabla9 7y ago
    Only slightly increased risk in the first two years https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20190723/testosterone-therapy-may-threaten-the-heart https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20190723/testostero...
throwaway5752 7y ago
---
- whateveracct 7y ago
  > The phytoestrogen stuff that is popping up in other comments than your own seems a lot of BS, honestly It's hilarious that "soy boy theory" gets parroted so loudly on HN.
  - throwaway5752 7y ago
    ---
    - dang 7y ago
      Please stop.
homonculus1 7y ago
Caring about men's issues is literally an insult. I don't know why you'd think society would give a rip.

everdrive 7y ago

It'd actually be quite reassuring if a lot of this was due to body temperature, and not phytoestrogens.

GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
phytoestrogens suppress natural estrogen production because they partially bind to existing estrogen receptors. there was never any (serious) doubt that there was an issue
- ced 7y ago
  There's some serious doubt on Wikipedia FWIW... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen#Males https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogen#Males It is unclear if phytoestrogens have any effect on male sexuality, with conflicting results about the potential effects of isoflavones originating from soy. A 2010 meta-analysis of fifteen placebo-controlled studies said that "neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable testosterone concentrations in men."[31] Some studies showed that isoflavone supplementation had no effect on sperm concentration, count, or motility, and had no effects on testicular or ejaculate volume.[32][33] Sperm count decline and increasing rate of testicular cancers in the West may be linked to a higher presence of isoflavone phytoestrogens in the diet, but such a link has not been definitively proven.[34] Furthermore, there is some evidence that phytoestrogens may affect male fertility, but "further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn"
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - endothrowho333 7y ago
    Hi, human endocrine researcher here: Wikipedia is garbage for "controversial" medical topics -- it's even worse for many non-controversial biochemical processes (please take a look at the human alcohol metabolism graph... utter garbage!). Citing a few researcher's conclusions (NO! You do NOT do this!) is haphazard, it usually does NOT match the same conclusions one's peers would reach were they to review piece as a whole. Here's what easily deductively reproduceable with a cursory understanding of the systems involved (and digging through a lot of literature): > Phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors (YES) > Chemicals -- other than estrogens -- that bind to estrogen receptors are Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators > SERMs are NOT the same as estrogens, but they do increase certain estrogenic effects depending on their chemical structure (good: lipid profile, prostate stability; AND bad gynocomastia, electrolyte retention) > Each SERM has a specific amount of "power" (receptor affinity and corresponding gene expression, i.e how much it increases or decreases the expression of certain genes) > Soy, and plant products, contain many different phytoestrogens/SERMs, isoflavones are the strongest Now, onto the goodies: > The HPTA (Hpyothalmic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) controls hormone output > There are estrogen receptors (and others) in the hypothalmus > Suffice to say, Hypothalmic Hormonal receptors modulate the levels of circulating sex hormones in the body > When there is an increase of hormones in the body, the excess get bound to hypothalmic receptors, causing the hypothalmus to tell the Pitutary + Testes to produce less hormones OVERALL (FSH, LH, tesosterone, estrogen, etc.) > Less production of hormones is NOT necessarily bad - Estrogen is the most important hormone in women AND men (take a large amount of any aromatase inhibitor, i.e estrogen "killer," and you will feel a LOT worse than if you were to take an anti-androgen) > SERMs do decrease circulating hormone levels (by how much is dependent on many variables), due to negative feedback on the HPTA > Once again, this is NOT necessarily bad, because SERMs still bind to estrogen receptors and elicit estrogenic effects on the body A few for the road: > Healthy estrogen levels are vital to male libido (as is a proper estrogen:testosterone ratio, too little of either is bad) > Too little testosterone may also cause too little estrogen, because estrogen is produced in the male body primarily from aromatase (enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen) > FSH is involved in sperm production > LH is involved in testosterone production This is all the information you need to make an informed opinion on the whole topic. I'm sick of all sides involved. Pseudoscience and agenads, all of you!

agumonkey 7y ago

Bulls are also having fertility issue. Climate change is making progress in taming population issues.