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If you have a way to brush aside death, do share with us. So far as I can tell, nothing about the attempts have been cavalier. Fortunes have been squandered,

If you have a way to brush aside death, do share with us. So far as I can tell, nothing about the attempts have been cavalier. Fortunes have been squandered, tears wept over the fresh graves of the beloved, lives were focused in an all-consuming passion, and so forth. The subject has already been rendered not cavalier by the agonies of our past. We haven't a "skip death" button to press. Chesterson's fence, which you referenced, is only applicable to the conscious acts of thinking beings. Evolution is not wise, evolution is not careful, evolution did not plan or reason for that fence. Evolution also gave us susceptibility to diseases, revolting parasites, defects of birth, and an often tragic fragility. Shall we preserve those as well? After all, they must be there for a reason. Under that aegis, nothing which applies to death does not equally and as thoroughly apply to quite literally every other medical intervention humanity has invented starting with the humble bandage. Evolution gave us allergies which cause people to asphixiate and clotting disorders which have children bleeding out from a casual scrape. Blindness, gangrene, arthritis: this is the wisdom of evolution.

saiya-jin 7y ago
> Evolution gave us allergies which cause people to asphixiate and clotting disorders which have children bleeding out from a casual scrape. Blindness, gangrene, arthritis: this is the wisdom of evolution. It is indeed a wisdom, albeit a primitive one which simply works good enough long term - survival of the fittest, best adapted, strongest, with better immunity etc. Collateral damage for the unfortunate is not important when we talk about billions of organisms over countless generations, and survival of the species as a whole. We also evolved over weaker species, because we were better and luckier. And we will evolve more either naturally or by our hands, if we keep on surviving.
titzer 7y ago
> Evolution is not wise, evolution is not careful, evolution did not plan or reason for that fence. Evolution also gave us susceptibility to diseases, revolting parasites, defects of birth, and an often tragic fragility. Shall we preserve those as well? After all, they must be there for a reason. Copy. Mutate. Select. Simple algorithm, remarkable results. Incredibly robust to failure. I think you do yourself a disservice thinking this way about the process that gave rise to you. Edit: and I didn't even read your whole comment. > Evolution gave us allergies which cause people to asphixiate and clotting disorders which have children bleeding out from a casual scrape. Blindness, gangrene, arthritis: this is the wisdom of evolution. It also, apparently, gave us breathtaking ignorance. No wait, that was human society.
- at_a_remove 7y ago
  This process that gave rise to me also gave me a painful, lifetime disability ... in its wisdom.
  - patcon 7y ago
    fwiw I find myself very torn to be rationalizing death when my mom just went into paliative care last week. I'm literally typing this as I should be walking out the door to the hospital. I suppose I'd like to push the button that let me mom live 200 years, but i also fear for that button ever existing. I don't think I could NOT push it. I promise I'm not callous. I'm maybe suspicious of the west's cult of the individual. I feel like sometimes we as individuals can't have what we want for ourselves, if we want the bigger ongoing project to succeed. Things are already so complicated, not least due to accumulation of generational wealth and inaction of the older generation. I worry the "curing" death will doom us all, and collapse this whole beautiful mess in on itself :/ Curing death sounds great when young startup folks are pushing it, but we all age out, we all get stuck inside the minds that grew up in old worlds. anyhow, much love to you and yours. truly
  - titzer 7y ago
    I'm sorry that you're suffering. No one should discount your experience. Yet even through our cloudy lens we behold a miracle beyond our possession, even beyond our comprehension. We are all transitional forms, even the best of us. We'll all die. It's nature's equalizer, grinding everything to dust and recycling it. We're all made of garbage. Junkyard parts, you and me both, buddy. Isn't it incredible? We're all Wreck Gar https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Wreck-Gar_(G1) https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Wreck-Gar_(G1). I think the awe of that realization is worth the meager existence allowed to me for the moment.
    - at_a_remove 7y ago
      Miracles do not necessarily have to be positive. Imagine Dante's inferno, where in some sections fire might rain down forever upon the limited sinners. That would also be a miracle. Possession, comprehension of miracles, all irrelevant if it is something to which you are subjected. If you are ill, if you are very ill and occasionally must ingest large quantities of painkillers, marveling at the exquisite engine of torment (how finely tuned! how painstaking its affordances!) is quite beyond one at times. Evolution is a shuddering conglomeration of what has worked to make a few more copies, over millions of oft-unlucky organisms, than a few thousand years ago. What persists exists, even if it is tortured. Evolution does not respect its individuals, all collateral damage, nor is it tender even to its most faithful adherents, as the male octopus, under a chemical spell, will tear off its own arm to proffer to a mate, and then to starve, function fulfilled. What a wicked wonder.

saiya-jin 7y ago

> Evolution gave us allergies which cause people to asphixiate and clotting disorders which have children bleeding out from a casual scrape. Blindness, gangrene, arthritis: this is the wisdom of evolution. It is indeed a wisdom, albeit a primitive one which simply works good enough long term - survival of the fittest, best adapted, strongest, with better immunity etc. Collateral damage for the unfortunate is not important when we talk about billions of organisms over countless generations, and survival of the species as a whole. We also evolved over weaker species, because we were better and luckier. And we will evolve more either naturally or by our hands, if we keep on surviving.

titzer 7y ago

> Evolution is not wise, evolution is not careful, evolution did not plan or reason for that fence. Evolution also gave us susceptibility to diseases, revolting parasites, defects of birth, and an often tragic fragility. Shall we preserve those as well? After all, they must be there for a reason. Copy. Mutate. Select. Simple algorithm, remarkable results. Incredibly robust to failure. I think you do yourself a disservice thinking this way about the process that gave rise to you. Edit: and I didn't even read your whole comment. > Evolution gave us allergies which cause people to asphixiate and clotting disorders which have children bleeding out from a casual scrape. Blindness, gangrene, arthritis: this is the wisdom of evolution. It also, apparently, gave us breathtaking ignorance. No wait, that was human society.

at_a_remove 7y ago
This process that gave rise to me also gave me a painful, lifetime disability ... in its wisdom.
- patcon 7y ago
  fwiw I find myself very torn to be rationalizing death when my mom just went into paliative care last week. I'm literally typing this as I should be walking out the door to the hospital. I suppose I'd like to push the button that let me mom live 200 years, but i also fear for that button ever existing. I don't think I could NOT push it. I promise I'm not callous. I'm maybe suspicious of the west's cult of the individual. I feel like sometimes we as individuals can't have what we want for ourselves, if we want the bigger ongoing project to succeed. Things are already so complicated, not least due to accumulation of generational wealth and inaction of the older generation. I worry the "curing" death will doom us all, and collapse this whole beautiful mess in on itself :/ Curing death sounds great when young startup folks are pushing it, but we all age out, we all get stuck inside the minds that grew up in old worlds. anyhow, much love to you and yours. truly
- titzer 7y ago
  I'm sorry that you're suffering. No one should discount your experience. Yet even through our cloudy lens we behold a miracle beyond our possession, even beyond our comprehension. We are all transitional forms, even the best of us. We'll all die. It's nature's equalizer, grinding everything to dust and recycling it. We're all made of garbage. Junkyard parts, you and me both, buddy. Isn't it incredible? We're all Wreck Gar https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Wreck-Gar_(G1) https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Wreck-Gar_(G1). I think the awe of that realization is worth the meager existence allowed to me for the moment.
  - at_a_remove 7y ago
    Miracles do not necessarily have to be positive. Imagine Dante's inferno, where in some sections fire might rain down forever upon the limited sinners. That would also be a miracle. Possession, comprehension of miracles, all irrelevant if it is something to which you are subjected. If you are ill, if you are very ill and occasionally must ingest large quantities of painkillers, marveling at the exquisite engine of torment (how finely tuned! how painstaking its affordances!) is quite beyond one at times. Evolution is a shuddering conglomeration of what has worked to make a few more copies, over millions of oft-unlucky organisms, than a few thousand years ago. What persists exists, even if it is tortured. Evolution does not respect its individuals, all collateral damage, nor is it tender even to its most faithful adherents, as the male octopus, under a chemical spell, will tear off its own arm to proffer to a mate, and then to starve, function fulfilled. What a wicked wonder.