10 ms·

Lidar Company Velodyne Debuts $100 Auto Safety Sensor

103 points by finphil 7y ago

rtkwe 7y ago
It's really nice to see LIDAR getting cheap I've wanted to play around with them for ages but the buy-in for anything other than cheap 2d units has always been way too high for me to justify. I do wish there were at least a few specs in this though.
- Animats 7y ago
  Yes, there's nothing about the resolution. You can get single-beam scanners for about that price now. If it's only a few beams, it's not a big deal. You can get a small number of beams automotive LIDAR from Continental right now. If you took a single-beam LIDAR and reflected it off a reflective prism where each face is at a slightly different angle, you'd have a somewhat slow multi-beam scanner with only one emitter and detector. I looked into doing that for the DARPA Grand Challenge, We were thinking of a mod to a rotating scanner used in laser printers to scan the page. There are optical companies that can cut and polish custom prisms. We were too small a team to build our own scanner, though.
  - KaiserPro 7y ago
    Yeah I notice that they are not showing a sample pointcloud.
  - cr0sh 7y ago
    Another way to do it is to mount a 2D LIDAR to scan in the vertical plane, and then pan that around. A 180 degree pan will net you a dome/spherical volume (although in a slow manner). You could do this easily with cheap parallax sensors (like you find on Neato vacuum cleaners, and which are now sold as separate units - RPLidar and such). This has also been done using SICK coffeepot-style 2D LIDAR units (such rigs tend to be large and heavy, tho). Something I've often considered is the idea of a "stochastic" scanner - that is, don't worry about strict angles, just let the sensor scan at random angles, and note the angle and reading. Over time you'd build up a complete scan. Just an idea I've rolled around in my head; the idea was to eliminate the need for syncing and timing of the scan hardware (2D or 3D), at the price of not necessarily getting a complete perfect scan all the time. It was something of a thought experiment I had while thinking up ways to DIY a LIDAR sensor in a very cheap manner, beyond what has already been done.
    - Animats 7y ago
      This has also been done using SICK coffeepot-style 2D LIDAR units (such rigs tend to be large and heavy, tho). Yes. Had one of those once. Worse, we had the weatherproof SICK unit, which is even bigger. We prepared for the DARPA Grand Challenge expecting much more off-road. Way too much skid plate stuff, armored cables inside mesh washing machine hoses, sensor cleaning with washer fluid and compressed error, stuff like that. Totally unnecessary, as it turned out. Something I've often considered is the idea of a "stochastic" scanner Someone sells one of those. There are two unsynchronized scan axes. More for stationary than for moving applications.
    - chrisdirkis 7y ago
      CSIRO did something like this with their Zebedee system[0], basically a Hokuyo 2D spinning lidar on a spring on a handheld stick. I love this from a design perspective, because it's very usage focused. You already have a human walking around site scanning, and a spring like this gives you the pitch and roll for "free", compared to panning it using an (expensive/heavy/clunky) electromechanical mechanism. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEAz_naHHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEAz_naHHg
      - rtkwe 7y ago
        I knew I'd seen one that did exactly like that but could not find a video of it!
  - Accujack 7y ago
    Do you happen to know if there's a LIDAR system (I'm aware that many of them just use LEDs) that operates at UV frequencies near the transition to visible? I'm looking for a LIDAR that can provide basic terrain and obstacle mapping underwater.
Someone1234 7y ago
So Lidar is getting cheaper, but the advantage of Lidar (Vs. optical) may be diminishing. Lidar worked really well because it was computationally impractical to process visual images in near real-time onboard. Lidar simplifies the informational inflow, which reduces computational cost. But the computational cost and practicality of processing optical data onboard has changed radically, it is now practical and affordable (both due to substantially improved software and new/cheaper hardware). Keep in mind humans use "optical sensors with parallax" (i.e. our eyeballs). Cars are already optimised around that assumption (e.g. headlines to improve visibility in the visible light spectrum). Lidar still has advantages, but also a bunch of drawbacks (like dispersion and sunlight disruption), optical sensors do too (e.g. glare) but they're a lot more intuitive for humans because we share them. I guess what I am saying is: Are you betting on better sensor tech (Lidar) or better computational tech (Optical)? I think Lidar will hit a ceiling after the "easy wins" have been consumed (and we're approaching that point), whereas optical has no real ceiling (even over and above human's innate abilities). With optical you can understand the world as humans visibly see it, Lidar sees the world fundamentally differently, seeing both less (bad) and more (good). Obviously it is a somewhat false choice, but if people are investing dollars into development of both techs it is a choice that matters.
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  > ... optical sensors do too (e.g. glare) but they're a lot more intuitive for humans because we share them That's an important point. The long term safer option will be to use both types of sensors before together, that can provide a more holistic picture of the scene around the car (much like we use radar for adaptive cruise control which would be much harder with just cameras ... I think). I hope we keep investing in making all these sensors cheaper and good enough for 30k cars to start packing them
  - UI_at_80x24 7y ago
    Jumping on the 'agree' bandwagon. >The long term safer option will be to use both types of sensors before together This 100% is the real target but I'd like to add to it. Camera-based systems rely on ambient photons arranged in a pre-determinded configuration hitting a sensor. Lidar-based systems rely on reflected photons hitting a sensor. What I would prefer to see is a LiDAR/RADAR combination. When both systems rely on "photons" you suffer the same inherited weaknesses of both. i.e. fog But split it up and you can be SAFER.
lootsauce 7y ago
how does one buy this?
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  From Velodyne, presumably, and their website says it will be available mid-2020
ycombonator 7y ago
My 2021 prediction: And the Chinese already got the specs and should start selling $5 units in a year.
- finphil 7y ago
  You beat me to it, but I was going for $50 ;)
  - brixon 7y ago
    It will be $5 in China and $50 in the US.
    - dvh 7y ago
      $79 for IoT enabled version ;)
    - anticensor 7y ago
      And a $0.02 version for Africa, where an export controlled weakened processing HW/SW combo is used instead of regular one.
sanguy 7y ago
Very cool to see this price point. If Velodyne really can manufacture and sell it in volume and be profitable it's an amazing evolution for Velodyne. If it's a loss leader to buy attention and stay relevant versus their fast moving competitors it will become obvious eventually.
ape4 7y ago
Its solid-state. Old Lidar needed an expensive revolving sensor
jklinger410 7y ago
Would be really cool to retro-fit these on an older vehicle. Replace the center console with a tablet, some OS handles the lidar.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
herogreen 7y ago
Better link: https://velodynelidar.com/press-release/velodyne-lidar-introduces-velabit/ https://velodynelidar.com/press-release/velodyne-lidar-intro... states "60-degree horizontal FoV x 10-degree vertical FoV" I wonder whats the resoltion though. Judging by the name "velabit" it could be low.
- m463 7y ago
  It wouldn't have to be too much to overcome the resolution of current front-facing radar and ultrasonic sensors, which are 1x1 resolution ;)
stevehawk 7y ago
I'm not a big hardware nerd, how do this and that $16,000 one from earlier this week compare? They're both roof top, spinning sensors it seems but at very different price points. Is this one not as far distance as the other?
- mdorazio 7y ago
  LIDAR units have different effective ranges and, most importantly, number of points they capture. These cheap units generally have a small number of points. Looks like the Velabit has a range of about 100 meters, but FOV is 60 degrees horizontal by 10 degrees vertical, so you would need to mount several of these around a vehicle to get the equivalent coverage of a 360 degree unit. The press releases don't say how many points are in its point cloud, but I'm guessing it's probably 1/10th of a larger unit's.
  - robocat 7y ago
    To add to above comment: comparison of some different models for Ouster (a competitor): https://ouster.com/blog/128-channel-lidar-sensors-long-range-and-ultra-wide-view/ https://ouster.com/blog/128-channel-lidar-sensors-long-range... Discussion about above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21970796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21970796
ThrustVectoring 7y ago
It'd be pretty cool to use this as part of an assistance tool for people with visual impairments. Convert the positional data to something you can learn to parse with your ears, and people could get a better sense of obstacles around them. I'm really not sure what the right conversion strategy or user interface is, but it seems like the sort of thing that'd be relatively straightforward.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ipsum2 7y ago
  Microsoft has something similar: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ai/seeing-ai https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ai/seeing-ai
teslaberry 7y ago
how long till lidarduino?

103 points by finphil 7y ago

It's really nice to see LIDAR getting cheap I've wanted to play around with them for ages but the buy-in for anything other than cheap 2d units has always been way too high for me to justify. I do wish there were at least a few specs in this though.

Animats 7y ago
Yes, there's nothing about the resolution. You can get single-beam scanners for about that price now. If it's only a few beams, it's not a big deal. You can get a small number of beams automotive LIDAR from Continental right now. If you took a single-beam LIDAR and reflected it off a reflective prism where each face is at a slightly different angle, you'd have a somewhat slow multi-beam scanner with only one emitter and detector. I looked into doing that for the DARPA Grand Challenge, We were thinking of a mod to a rotating scanner used in laser printers to scan the page. There are optical companies that can cut and polish custom prisms. We were too small a team to build our own scanner, though.
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  Yeah I notice that they are not showing a sample pointcloud.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  Another way to do it is to mount a 2D LIDAR to scan in the vertical plane, and then pan that around. A 180 degree pan will net you a dome/spherical volume (although in a slow manner). You could do this easily with cheap parallax sensors (like you find on Neato vacuum cleaners, and which are now sold as separate units - RPLidar and such). This has also been done using SICK coffeepot-style 2D LIDAR units (such rigs tend to be large and heavy, tho). Something I've often considered is the idea of a "stochastic" scanner - that is, don't worry about strict angles, just let the sensor scan at random angles, and note the angle and reading. Over time you'd build up a complete scan. Just an idea I've rolled around in my head; the idea was to eliminate the need for syncing and timing of the scan hardware (2D or 3D), at the price of not necessarily getting a complete perfect scan all the time. It was something of a thought experiment I had while thinking up ways to DIY a LIDAR sensor in a very cheap manner, beyond what has already been done.
  - Animats 7y ago
    This has also been done using SICK coffeepot-style 2D LIDAR units (such rigs tend to be large and heavy, tho). Yes. Had one of those once. Worse, we had the weatherproof SICK unit, which is even bigger. We prepared for the DARPA Grand Challenge expecting much more off-road. Way too much skid plate stuff, armored cables inside mesh washing machine hoses, sensor cleaning with washer fluid and compressed error, stuff like that. Totally unnecessary, as it turned out. Something I've often considered is the idea of a "stochastic" scanner Someone sells one of those. There are two unsynchronized scan axes. More for stationary than for moving applications.
  - chrisdirkis 7y ago
    CSIRO did something like this with their Zebedee system[0], basically a Hokuyo 2D spinning lidar on a spring on a handheld stick. I love this from a design perspective, because it's very usage focused. You already have a human walking around site scanning, and a spring like this gives you the pitch and roll for "free", compared to panning it using an (expensive/heavy/clunky) electromechanical mechanism. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEAz_naHHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEAz_naHHg
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      I knew I'd seen one that did exactly like that but could not find a video of it!
- Accujack 7y ago
  Do you happen to know if there's a LIDAR system (I'm aware that many of them just use LEDs) that operates at UV frequencies near the transition to visible? I'm looking for a LIDAR that can provide basic terrain and obstacle mapping underwater.

Someone1234 7y ago

So Lidar is getting cheaper, but the advantage of Lidar (Vs. optical) may be diminishing. Lidar worked really well because it was computationally impractical to process visual images in near real-time onboard. Lidar simplifies the informational inflow, which reduces computational cost. But the computational cost and practicality of processing optical data onboard has changed radically, it is now practical and affordable (both due to substantially improved software and new/cheaper hardware). Keep in mind humans use "optical sensors with parallax" (i.e. our eyeballs). Cars are already optimised around that assumption (e.g. headlines to improve visibility in the visible light spectrum). Lidar still has advantages, but also a bunch of drawbacks (like dispersion and sunlight disruption), optical sensors do too (e.g. glare) but they're a lot more intuitive for humans because we share them. I guess what I am saying is: Are you betting on better sensor tech (Lidar) or better computational tech (Optical)? I think Lidar will hit a ceiling after the "easy wins" have been consumed (and we're approaching that point), whereas optical has no real ceiling (even over and above human's innate abilities). With optical you can understand the world as humans visibly see it, Lidar sees the world fundamentally differently, seeing both less (bad) and more (good). Obviously it is a somewhat false choice, but if people are investing dollars into development of both techs it is a choice that matters.

Infinitesimus 7y ago
> ... optical sensors do too (e.g. glare) but they're a lot more intuitive for humans because we share them That's an important point. The long term safer option will be to use both types of sensors before together, that can provide a more holistic picture of the scene around the car (much like we use radar for adaptive cruise control which would be much harder with just cameras ... I think). I hope we keep investing in making all these sensors cheaper and good enough for 30k cars to start packing them
- UI_at_80x24 7y ago
  Jumping on the 'agree' bandwagon. >The long term safer option will be to use both types of sensors before together This 100% is the real target but I'd like to add to it. Camera-based systems rely on ambient photons arranged in a pre-determinded configuration hitting a sensor. Lidar-based systems rely on reflected photons hitting a sensor. What I would prefer to see is a LiDAR/RADAR combination. When both systems rely on "photons" you suffer the same inherited weaknesses of both. i.e. fog But split it up and you can be SAFER.

lootsauce 7y ago

how does one buy this?

ThrustVectoring 7y ago
From Velodyne, presumably, and their website says it will be available mid-2020

ycombonator 7y ago

My 2021 prediction: And the Chinese already got the specs and should start selling $5 units in a year.

finphil 7y ago
You beat me to it, but I was going for $50 ;)
- brixon 7y ago
  It will be $5 in China and $50 in the US.
  - dvh 7y ago
    $79 for IoT enabled version ;)
  - anticensor 7y ago
    And a $0.02 version for Africa, where an export controlled weakened processing HW/SW combo is used instead of regular one.

sanguy 7y ago

Very cool to see this price point. If Velodyne really can manufacture and sell it in volume and be profitable it's an amazing evolution for Velodyne. If it's a loss leader to buy attention and stay relevant versus their fast moving competitors it will become obvious eventually.

ape4 7y ago

Its solid-state. Old Lidar needed an expensive revolving sensor

jklinger410 7y ago

Would be really cool to retro-fit these on an older vehicle. Replace the center console with a tablet, some OS handles the lidar.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

herogreen 7y ago

Better link: https://velodynelidar.com/press-release/velodyne-lidar-introduces-velabit/ https://velodynelidar.com/press-release/velodyne-lidar-intro... states "60-degree horizontal FoV x 10-degree vertical FoV" I wonder whats the resoltion though. Judging by the name "velabit" it could be low.

m463 7y ago
It wouldn't have to be too much to overcome the resolution of current front-facing radar and ultrasonic sensors, which are 1x1 resolution ;)

stevehawk 7y ago

I'm not a big hardware nerd, how do this and that $16,000 one from earlier this week compare? They're both roof top, spinning sensors it seems but at very different price points. Is this one not as far distance as the other?

mdorazio 7y ago
LIDAR units have different effective ranges and, most importantly, number of points they capture. These cheap units generally have a small number of points. Looks like the Velabit has a range of about 100 meters, but FOV is 60 degrees horizontal by 10 degrees vertical, so you would need to mount several of these around a vehicle to get the equivalent coverage of a 360 degree unit. The press releases don't say how many points are in its point cloud, but I'm guessing it's probably 1/10th of a larger unit's.
- robocat 7y ago
  To add to above comment: comparison of some different models for Ouster (a competitor): https://ouster.com/blog/128-channel-lidar-sensors-long-range-and-ultra-wide-view/ https://ouster.com/blog/128-channel-lidar-sensors-long-range... Discussion about above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21970796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21970796

ThrustVectoring 7y ago

It'd be pretty cool to use this as part of an assistance tool for people with visual impairments. Convert the positional data to something you can learn to parse with your ears, and people could get a better sense of obstacles around them. I'm really not sure what the right conversion strategy or user interface is, but it seems like the sort of thing that'd be relatively straightforward.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ipsum2 7y ago
Microsoft has something similar: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ai/seeing-ai https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/ai/seeing-ai

teslaberry 7y ago

how long till lidarduino?