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I'd love to hear your criticisms of "freedom, human rights, and democracy [representative government]" in contrast to the authoritarianism and xenophobia of Chi

I'd love to hear your criticisms of "freedom, human rights, and democracy [representative government]" in contrast to the authoritarianism and xenophobia of China.

Supermancho 7y ago
What you consider freedom (and Human Rights) is likely different than I. However, in the US you get to live with the tyranny of the majority, regardless of what either of us think. The fact that it's (largely) an ignorant mass in charge vs a specific individual (and their motivated power structures) is different and yet the same. Culturally, China tolerates more. Give the USA a couple thousand years and it will look identical. No form of government has lasted the test of time, but authoritarian governments have statistically populated the longest lasting ones. In modernity, there has been a brief renaissance, but I don't believe that corruption of a modern democracy will take longer than it did for Rome ANYWHERE, including the USA. It's hard to be critical of becoming successful as robber barons of the USA, when there's so little culture and so much of the capital to waste. Don't mistake those qualities for innate value.
claudiawerner 7y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "contrast" - China is absolutely an authoritarian country, but that does not negate the criticisms[0] of the liberal conceptions of freedom and human rights in the West - we now have to points to criticize: the Western ideology, and the Chinese one. Freedom is absolutely an important thing to have in society, but that doesn't mean that the Western (or Chinese) conceptions of it are the right ones. To say that the philosophical underpinnings of liberal freedom and democracy are immune from criticism (feminist, Marxist, or otherwise) is tantamount to dogmatism. China's concepts may be worse than the Western concepts, but the Western ones certainly aren't beyond reproach. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 [2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri
elfexec 7y ago
> freedom Well a lot of people criticize our freedom to bear arms. People criticize free speech a lot. Despite what you've been told, freedom isn't held in high regard anywhere really. We just give it a lot of lip service. > human rights What is it? UN declaration of human rights originally had absolute "free speech". Then they started limiting it to protect religions, identity, etc. One human right is for free assembly and community. Another is for free movement. What happens when these "human rights" collide? Healthcare is a "human right". Should other nations invade the US to give us our "human rights"? Right to life is a human right? Should people who believe fetuses are persons invade to stop abortions? Things aren't as black and white as you think they are. Whose human right is more valuable? > and democracy [representative government] There are plenty of arguments against democracy. Go read about the founding fathers and their opinions of democracy. That hated the idea so much that they created a government to guard against democracy and only gave voting rights to a tiny fraction of the nation. The first presidential election ( for Washington ) had low single digit voting percentage. Naively talking about "freedom, human rights, and democracy" sounds great at a superficial level, but when you get down to details, it isn't as straightforward and rosy as you think. The only people who talk about freedom, human rights, and democracy so cavalierly are those who never actually thought about it. Frankly, the only thing "freedom, human rights, and democracy" has been used for in the past few decades is to use it to justify invading other countries. I'm sure all the millions of murdered vietnamese, iraqis, south americans, etc sure appreciate the "freedom, human rights, and democracy" we've dropped on them. It's pretty much a repackaged neocolonial "white man's burden".
echaozh 7y ago
First, China is not xenophobic. Rather, Sino-phobic can pretty well describe a lot of Americans if their words are true to their hearts. Secondly, freedom and rights all have prices. One's freedom is another one's lack thereof. Say you are free to speak your mind, what if I don't like to hear it? Like the N word, or anything that is not appropriate to pronounce even in "freedom of speech" countries. Is there complete freedom? Are there unlimited rights? Of course not. The issue is just where we should draw the line. As to democracy, well, how do you tell it apart from populism? How to stop the elites from hijacking it to their own good? You know, if the propaganda machine is working full force, democracy or not is not that different. And you lose the efficiency. IMHO, a mature person, and the collective of mature persons, aka a mature society, should know that there is nothing inherently, and absolutely good or bad. Everything requires compromises and tradeoffs. If you point to something and ridicule anyone else's unkind opinion torwards it, it is you being naive.

I'd love to hear your criticisms of "freedom, human rights, and democracy [representative government]" in contrast to the authoritarianism and xenophobia of China.

Supermancho 7y ago

What you consider freedom (and Human Rights) is likely different than I. However, in the US you get to live with the tyranny of the majority, regardless of what either of us think. The fact that it's (largely) an ignorant mass in charge vs a specific individual (and their motivated power structures) is different and yet the same. Culturally, China tolerates more. Give the USA a couple thousand years and it will look identical. No form of government has lasted the test of time, but authoritarian governments have statistically populated the longest lasting ones. In modernity, there has been a brief renaissance, but I don't believe that corruption of a modern democracy will take longer than it did for Rome ANYWHERE, including the USA. It's hard to be critical of becoming successful as robber barons of the USA, when there's so little culture and so much of the capital to waste. Don't mistake those qualities for innate value.

claudiawerner 7y ago

I'm not sure what you mean by "contrast" - China is absolutely an authoritarian country, but that does not negate the criticisms[0] of the liberal conceptions of freedom and human rights in the West - we now have to points to criticize: the Western ideology, and the Chinese one. Freedom is absolutely an important thing to have in society, but that doesn't mean that the Western (or Chinese) conceptions of it are the right ones. To say that the philosophical underpinnings of liberal freedom and democracy are immune from criticism (feminist, Marxist, or otherwise) is tantamount to dogmatism. China's concepts may be worse than the Western concepts, but the Western ones certainly aren't beyond reproach. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 [2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri

elfexec 7y ago

> freedom Well a lot of people criticize our freedom to bear arms. People criticize free speech a lot. Despite what you've been told, freedom isn't held in high regard anywhere really. We just give it a lot of lip service. > human rights What is it? UN declaration of human rights originally had absolute "free speech". Then they started limiting it to protect religions, identity, etc. One human right is for free assembly and community. Another is for free movement. What happens when these "human rights" collide? Healthcare is a "human right". Should other nations invade the US to give us our "human rights"? Right to life is a human right? Should people who believe fetuses are persons invade to stop abortions? Things aren't as black and white as you think they are. Whose human right is more valuable? > and democracy [representative government] There are plenty of arguments against democracy. Go read about the founding fathers and their opinions of democracy. That hated the idea so much that they created a government to guard against democracy and only gave voting rights to a tiny fraction of the nation. The first presidential election ( for Washington ) had low single digit voting percentage. Naively talking about "freedom, human rights, and democracy" sounds great at a superficial level, but when you get down to details, it isn't as straightforward and rosy as you think. The only people who talk about freedom, human rights, and democracy so cavalierly are those who never actually thought about it. Frankly, the only thing "freedom, human rights, and democracy" has been used for in the past few decades is to use it to justify invading other countries. I'm sure all the millions of murdered vietnamese, iraqis, south americans, etc sure appreciate the "freedom, human rights, and democracy" we've dropped on them. It's pretty much a repackaged neocolonial "white man's burden".

echaozh 7y ago

First, China is not xenophobic. Rather, Sino-phobic can pretty well describe a lot of Americans if their words are true to their hearts. Secondly, freedom and rights all have prices. One's freedom is another one's lack thereof. Say you are free to speak your mind, what if I don't like to hear it? Like the N word, or anything that is not appropriate to pronounce even in "freedom of speech" countries. Is there complete freedom? Are there unlimited rights? Of course not. The issue is just where we should draw the line. As to democracy, well, how do you tell it apart from populism? How to stop the elites from hijacking it to their own good? You know, if the propaganda machine is working full force, democracy or not is not that different. And you lose the efficiency. IMHO, a mature person, and the collective of mature persons, aka a mature society, should know that there is nothing inherently, and absolutely good or bad. Everything requires compromises and tradeoffs. If you point to something and ridicule anyone else's unkind opinion torwards it, it is you being naive.