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This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This

This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.

eropple 7y ago
Mm. I sure do love to create value. That's certainly why I live. Not to, like, experience the world, or to do things I care about. Nope! I live to create value. Work to live, not live to work. Well-run unions help workers do that, both young and old.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  What you do or don’t love is not relevant. You’re free to provide me with no value at all if you choose. But I’m obviously not going to give you any of my money in that case. If you want someone to give you money so that you can do things like experience the world, or eat, you have to provide something in return. You don’t get something for nothing.
balls187 7y ago
That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best interest and value your contributions. A labor union would give you the bargaining ability to have that say. Unions aren't above abuse, but neither are non-union jobs either. I'm offering a perspective as someone with ~20 years experience in industry lucky enough to have been relevant for so long.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.
  - tomtheelder 7y ago
    > I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is This is precisely the situation that most non-unionized workers already have, except that no one is even nominally trying to advocate for their interests. The theory that corporations should be beholden exclusively to shareholders and not to all stakeholders took over completely, and has failed workers spectacularly (it's been great for capital, unsurprisingly). Having union representatives with bargaining ability is just a means for the most important stakeholders, workers, to exert any influence in a situation where they currently have none.
    - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      How does anyone say that the US tech industry has “failed workers spectacularly” with a straight face? If any industry has not failed the workers, it’s the tech industry. The idea that some union rep can negotiate a better outcome for me than I can is, frankly, pretty laughable.
      - balls187 7y ago
        > The idea that some union rep can negotiate a better outcome for me than I can is, frankly, pretty laughable. What is your employer match for your 401k? What is your annual deductible for health insurance for yourself? For your partner? Kids? How large is your pension fund? Terms?
  - balls187 7y ago
    The sentiment here is that for the game industry Unions would be a benefit to put an end to unfair working conditions. Game companies have a lot of leverage because the demand for jobs in gaming for out weighs the supply. Your bargaining power comes from leverage, and your only real leverage is that you can go work for some other company. A labor union's bargaining power comes from numbers of it's members. Certainly that can and has lead to abuse, but that is no different than what can happen with business.
- bluGill 7y ago
  It isn't a strawman - it is in fact one outcome from the requirements for a union to work: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit-unions/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit... Workers who feel like they are not better than each other are much more willing to organize, and they are also more likely to support seniority pay systems. Note that this isn't a hard requirement. Some unions do not have it, but it is a strike against the whole concept. Maybe the union and work anyway, some do. It does however make it much harder for the union to get started and remain started.

eropple 7y ago

Mm. I sure do love to create value. That's certainly why I live. Not to, like, experience the world, or to do things I care about. Nope! I live to create value. Work to live, not live to work. Well-run unions help workers do that, both young and old.

lawnchair_larry 7y ago
What you do or don’t love is not relevant. You’re free to provide me with no value at all if you choose. But I’m obviously not going to give you any of my money in that case. If you want someone to give you money so that you can do things like experience the world, or eat, you have to provide something in return. You don’t get something for nothing.

balls187 7y ago

That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best interest and value your contributions. A labor union would give you the bargaining ability to have that say. Unions aren't above abuse, but neither are non-union jobs either. I'm offering a perspective as someone with ~20 years experience in industry lucky enough to have been relevant for so long.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.
- tomtheelder 7y ago
  > I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is This is precisely the situation that most non-unionized workers already have, except that no one is even nominally trying to advocate for their interests. The theory that corporations should be beholden exclusively to shareholders and not to all stakeholders took over completely, and has failed workers spectacularly (it's been great for capital, unsurprisingly). Having union representatives with bargaining ability is just a means for the most important stakeholders, workers, to exert any influence in a situation where they currently have none.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    How does anyone say that the US tech industry has “failed workers spectacularly” with a straight face? If any industry has not failed the workers, it’s the tech industry. The idea that some union rep can negotiate a better outcome for me than I can is, frankly, pretty laughable.
    - balls187 7y ago
      > The idea that some union rep can negotiate a better outcome for me than I can is, frankly, pretty laughable. What is your employer match for your 401k? What is your annual deductible for health insurance for yourself? For your partner? Kids? How large is your pension fund? Terms?
- balls187 7y ago
  The sentiment here is that for the game industry Unions would be a benefit to put an end to unfair working conditions. Game companies have a lot of leverage because the demand for jobs in gaming for out weighs the supply. Your bargaining power comes from leverage, and your only real leverage is that you can go work for some other company. A labor union's bargaining power comes from numbers of it's members. Certainly that can and has lead to abuse, but that is no different than what can happen with business.
bluGill 7y ago
It isn't a strawman - it is in fact one outcome from the requirements for a union to work: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit-unions/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit... Workers who feel like they are not better than each other are much more willing to organize, and they are also more likely to support seniority pay systems. Note that this isn't a hard requirement. Some unions do not have it, but it is a strike against the whole concept. Maybe the union and work anyway, some do. It does however make it much harder for the union to get started and remain started.