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Have you considered what your career will be like at age 48? 55? 62? It's true that software developers are well compensated and in high demand, that demand ta

Have you considered what your career will be like at age 48? 55? 62? It's true that software developers are well compensated and in high demand, that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. If you want to go into management, then it's climb the corporate ladder, and get promoted until you can't do your job. What if you want to stay an IC? Become the lone developer who can support a legacy react application, while 99% of the team is working on whatever the latest CS languages? A labor union for software developers would be an insurance policy for our futures. Something to consider.

lettergram 7y ago
I won’t comment on anything but the ageism. Most of the developers I work with are in there late 20s and early 30s. We’ve hired people in their 40s, 50s and 60s to join our team. According to those I’ve spoken with there really isn’t a challenge to find work - regardless of age. The caveat being everyone I spoke with was current on the latest languages, research, etc. If you stay current with the times you can find a job in most white collar fields without a problem. Basically your resume should reflect your time to obtain experience. Final note - people typically hire others similar to them. As engineers age they are more likely willing to hire older engineers. I basically view this as a solution today because we have such a plethora of engineers being hired.
- balls187 7y ago
  Curious how are the 40,50,60 year old programmers working out for your team?
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    Can’t speak for the original commenter, but the 50 year old on our team ramped up to become our most trusted source of design feedback within a month or two.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Not OP, but I can tell you how it was working out on my previous team within a big 4 tech co. For the context, the whole team consisted of a mix of a few people in their 20s (1 being almost 30, 2 being straight out of college in their early 20s), 2 in their 30s, manager in their 40s, 1 more person in their 40s, and 1 person in their 50s. Almost like a paper perfect age diversity bingo card. What i found was that age had absolutely nothing to do with anything when it came to my workplace. There were more differences between some teammates in their 20s than between them and the teammates over 40. Older teammates were not slower or learning less things or anything like that. The only major workplace difference i have noticed between younger and older people was that they were better at estimating their schedules/delivery timelines, as well as them being able to spot certain things that younger ones havent spotted yet, i guess due to their experience with certain problems and being able to see those repeating patterns. A bit more patience and being a bit better at explaining things in bajillion different ways until one of them clicks for you; i would say social skills and ability to navigate the workplace in general were a bit higher. But that was definitely not universal for every older person, just simply talking about averages within the groups of older people i got a chance to work with. However, i bet it had a lot to do with the kind of people we hired, and if you look at the industry averages of older people vs younger people (when it comes to being up to date on the tech stack, research, learning new things, etc), the picture painted would be vastly different.
  - swalsh 7y ago
    My experience with older programmers is they are generally a bit slower. However they typically bring to the table something much more valuable. Everything that's new, has been done before... and they've seen it done before. They know the pitfalls, they also know the shortcuts. Many of them are hesitant of adopting new technology, but when they do, it's usually bringing something significant to the table. In my opinion, if you can get one of these old guys on your team, your team is going to be better off. That said, the crotchetiness is almost always on the higher end. Of course, it's not a rule. I also once worked with an older guy who was one of the nicest guys I've worked with... but I wouldn't let him come within 10 feet of my repo.
  - lettergram 7y ago
    I think the difference may be approach. I found those older were often better at estimating and had a breadth of knowledge they could draw from. Honestly, I think generally everyone comes to the table with experience. Those who are older typically can tie theirs together better than we can vocalizing between members, so they have an edge. Everyone I’ve worked with has always been willing to learn (it’s what I personally and companies screen for in interviews) so that’s never been a problem. Generally though, age doesn’t play a role in anything meaningful I’ve seen. Years of experience In a field can help, willingness to learn, and attitude / temperament, that’s about it - irrespective of age
lawnchair_larry 7y ago
This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.
- eropple 7y ago
  Mm. I sure do love to create value. That's certainly why I live. Not to, like, experience the world, or to do things I care about. Nope! I live to create value. Work to live, not live to work. Well-run unions help workers do that, both young and old.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    What you do or don’t love is not relevant. You’re free to provide me with no value at all if you choose. But I’m obviously not going to give you any of my money in that case. If you want someone to give you money so that you can do things like experience the world, or eat, you have to provide something in return. You don’t get something for nothing.
- balls187 7y ago
  That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best interest and value your contributions. A labor union would give you the bargaining ability to have that say. Unions aren't above abuse, but neither are non-union jobs either. I'm offering a perspective as someone with ~20 years experience in industry lucky enough to have been relevant for so long.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
I've seen what my career was like at 48, and at 55. Still guessing at what it will be at 62, but I'm not very worried. > that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. I haven't seen ageism come up. I've seen that I'm a pretty expensive guy, because 35 years of experience has value. But not every employer needs that, and those that don't hire someone less expensive. That's not ageism. That is lower demand for people over 40, though. On the other hand, the supply is lower, too.

lettergram 7y ago

I won’t comment on anything but the ageism. Most of the developers I work with are in there late 20s and early 30s. We’ve hired people in their 40s, 50s and 60s to join our team. According to those I’ve spoken with there really isn’t a challenge to find work - regardless of age. The caveat being everyone I spoke with was current on the latest languages, research, etc. If you stay current with the times you can find a job in most white collar fields without a problem. Basically your resume should reflect your time to obtain experience. Final note - people typically hire others similar to them. As engineers age they are more likely willing to hire older engineers. I basically view this as a solution today because we have such a plethora of engineers being hired.

balls187 7y ago
Curious how are the 40,50,60 year old programmers working out for your team?
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  Can’t speak for the original commenter, but the 50 year old on our team ramped up to become our most trusted source of design feedback within a month or two.
- filoleg 7y ago
  Not OP, but I can tell you how it was working out on my previous team within a big 4 tech co. For the context, the whole team consisted of a mix of a few people in their 20s (1 being almost 30, 2 being straight out of college in their early 20s), 2 in their 30s, manager in their 40s, 1 more person in their 40s, and 1 person in their 50s. Almost like a paper perfect age diversity bingo card. What i found was that age had absolutely nothing to do with anything when it came to my workplace. There were more differences between some teammates in their 20s than between them and the teammates over 40. Older teammates were not slower or learning less things or anything like that. The only major workplace difference i have noticed between younger and older people was that they were better at estimating their schedules/delivery timelines, as well as them being able to spot certain things that younger ones havent spotted yet, i guess due to their experience with certain problems and being able to see those repeating patterns. A bit more patience and being a bit better at explaining things in bajillion different ways until one of them clicks for you; i would say social skills and ability to navigate the workplace in general were a bit higher. But that was definitely not universal for every older person, just simply talking about averages within the groups of older people i got a chance to work with. However, i bet it had a lot to do with the kind of people we hired, and if you look at the industry averages of older people vs younger people (when it comes to being up to date on the tech stack, research, learning new things, etc), the picture painted would be vastly different.
- swalsh 7y ago
  My experience with older programmers is they are generally a bit slower. However they typically bring to the table something much more valuable. Everything that's new, has been done before... and they've seen it done before. They know the pitfalls, they also know the shortcuts. Many of them are hesitant of adopting new technology, but when they do, it's usually bringing something significant to the table. In my opinion, if you can get one of these old guys on your team, your team is going to be better off. That said, the crotchetiness is almost always on the higher end. Of course, it's not a rule. I also once worked with an older guy who was one of the nicest guys I've worked with... but I wouldn't let him come within 10 feet of my repo.
- lettergram 7y ago
  I think the difference may be approach. I found those older were often better at estimating and had a breadth of knowledge they could draw from. Honestly, I think generally everyone comes to the table with experience. Those who are older typically can tie theirs together better than we can vocalizing between members, so they have an edge. Everyone I’ve worked with has always been willing to learn (it’s what I personally and companies screen for in interviews) so that’s never been a problem. Generally though, age doesn’t play a role in anything meaningful I’ve seen. Years of experience In a field can help, willingness to learn, and attitude / temperament, that’s about it - irrespective of age

lawnchair_larry 7y ago

This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.

eropple 7y ago
Mm. I sure do love to create value. That's certainly why I live. Not to, like, experience the world, or to do things I care about. Nope! I live to create value. Work to live, not live to work. Well-run unions help workers do that, both young and old.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  What you do or don’t love is not relevant. You’re free to provide me with no value at all if you choose. But I’m obviously not going to give you any of my money in that case. If you want someone to give you money so that you can do things like experience the world, or eat, you have to provide something in return. You don’t get something for nothing.
balls187 7y ago
That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best interest and value your contributions. A labor union would give you the bargaining ability to have that say. Unions aren't above abuse, but neither are non-union jobs either. I'm offering a perspective as someone with ~20 years experience in industry lucky enough to have been relevant for so long.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  A labor union gives union leaders bargaining ability. Even if we assume that leaders are properly aligned with the employees as a whole, which is not something I think can be taken for granted, I’m not sure I want a handful of representatives with no personal relationship to me deciding how valuable my work is.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

I've seen what my career was like at 48, and at 55. Still guessing at what it will be at 62, but I'm not very worried. > that demand tapers off rapidly after 40, when ageism comes up. I haven't seen ageism come up. I've seen that I'm a pretty expensive guy, because 35 years of experience has value. But not every employer needs that, and those that don't hire someone less expensive. That's not ageism. That is lower demand for people over 40, though. On the other hand, the supply is lower, too.