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John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Pick
by eropple 7y ago
John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be).
Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.
- adnzzzzZ 7y agoJohn Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.
- eropple 7y agoJohn Carmack got to where he is by owning a game development company. That does not imply he didn't work at it and it doesn't imply that he didn't work hard but the difference between capital and labor is obvious and that is precisely what a union seeks to address. (He's also a genius. And good for him for that. Most people aren't.)
- adnzzzzZ 7y agoHe talks about this in the video. In his own experience in his studios he never noticed someone being unfairly pressured to work more than they wanted, and he had colleagues who worked 9 to 5 and who did just fine. He also claims that from people in the industry he spoke to, most people under these situations choose to work overtime because they value their work a lot, and that he doesn't buy into social engineering arguments that people are pressured into doing it because otherwise they'd get fired.
- aabeshou 7y agowell, if he's right then people might just reject the union. if his experience is biased and/or anecdotal, we'll find out the truth. either way, no point in trying to undermine or discredit grassroots unionization efforts.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoThe article isn’t describing a grassroots unionization effort. The CWA, a large external organization which expects to benefit from the creation of game developer unions, is pumping in an unknown amount of resources and funding.
- eropple 7y ago"Never noticed" is doing a lot of work for you there. Making line employees work more to achieve goals that cannot otherwise be reached except by pushing those employees to crunch is what managers are for. Why would an executive or a founder "notice" this? The work's getting done, what else do they care about? It's possible that iD was well-run when he was there. (And, from what I've anecdotally heard, that's probably true--Todd Hollenshead gets a lot of respect from folks I know!) That doesn't mean other studios are run so well and it doesn't mean that Carmack's anecdotes cancel out, or even meaningfully put into question, those of people not in his rarefied circles. There are a lot of game developers out there and most don't have nearly the funding or the schedule luxuries that iD always did pre-Bethesda, when Carmack was most involved.
- claudeganon 7y agoWe should be quick to encourage genius outliers, but thats not most people, and those people shouldn’t be forced into death marches to ship games. The two concerns aren’t antithetical. Major industries like sports and entertainment, both of which are a heavy mixture of average and high-performers, are already unionized without any real drag on the exceptionally talented nor their compensation.
- lawnchair_larry 7y agoBut it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.
- eropple 7y agoYeah, a union definitely would have meant that half a dozen friends couldn't quit their employer and go work for themselves. That's definitely how it works. Because unions are slavery. Why are you bad-faithing your way around this entire discussion?
- lawnchair_larry 7y agoI’m not. You are making a sarcastic comment to attack straw man claims that nobody made. I think that’s bad faith.
- eropple 7y agoOK, fine, then, I'll bite. If that's not the "claim" you want people to extract from your drive-bys, then please substantiate: how--exactly--would that evil specter of a union prevented Carmack and his friends from founding iD to make Keen, Doom, and Quake? Be specific.
- username90 7y agoJohn Carmack was hired as a starry eyed novice without degree. A union would probably prohibit such things by enacting a high minimum wage and so on. Edit: Since you probably missed it, the question where how unions would prevent John Carmack from existing as he does now. John Carmack entered the gaming industry as a low skilled cheap abused worker, if he couldn't have done that at a young age chances are he would never have started his company and so on. Being able to work for 3 years instead of finishing your degree is an option unions likely would close.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago