6 ms·

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

eropple 7y ago
John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.
- adnzzzzZ 7y ago
  John Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.
  - eropple 7y ago
    John Carmack got to where he is by owning a game development company. That does not imply he didn't work at it and it doesn't imply that he didn't work hard but the difference between capital and labor is obvious and that is precisely what a union seeks to address. (He's also a genius. And good for him for that. Most people aren't.)
    - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
      He talks about this in the video. In his own experience in his studios he never noticed someone being unfairly pressured to work more than they wanted, and he had colleagues who worked 9 to 5 and who did just fine. He also claims that from people in the industry he spoke to, most people under these situations choose to work overtime because they value their work a lot, and that he doesn't buy into social engineering arguments that people are pressured into doing it because otherwise they'd get fired.
      - aabeshou 7y ago
        well, if he's right then people might just reject the union. if his experience is biased and/or anecdotal, we'll find out the truth. either way, no point in trying to undermine or discredit grassroots unionization efforts.
        SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        The article isn’t describing a grassroots unionization effort. The CWA, a large external organization which expects to benefit from the creation of game developer unions, is pumping in an unknown amount of resources and funding.
      - eropple 7y ago
        "Never noticed" is doing a lot of work for you there. Making line employees work more to achieve goals that cannot otherwise be reached except by pushing those employees to crunch is what managers are for. Why would an executive or a founder "notice" this? The work's getting done, what else do they care about? It's possible that iD was well-run when he was there. (And, from what I've anecdotally heard, that's probably true--Todd Hollenshead gets a lot of respect from folks I know!) That doesn't mean other studios are run so well and it doesn't mean that Carmack's anecdotes cancel out, or even meaningfully put into question, those of people not in his rarefied circles. There are a lot of game developers out there and most don't have nearly the funding or the schedule luxuries that iD always did pre-Bethesda, when Carmack was most involved.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    We should be quick to encourage genius outliers, but thats not most people, and those people shouldn’t be forced into death marches to ship games. The two concerns aren’t antithetical. Major industries like sports and entertainment, both of which are a heavy mixture of average and high-performers, are already unionized without any real drag on the exceptionally talented nor their compensation.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  But it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.
  - eropple 7y ago
    Yeah, a union definitely would have meant that half a dozen friends couldn't quit their employer and go work for themselves. That's definitely how it works. Because unions are slavery. Why are you bad-faithing your way around this entire discussion?
    - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      I’m not. You are making a sarcastic comment to attack straw man claims that nobody made. I think that’s bad faith.
      - eropple 7y ago
        OK, fine, then, I'll bite. If that's not the "claim" you want people to extract from your drive-bys, then please substantiate: how--exactly--would that evil specter of a union prevented Carmack and his friends from founding iD to make Keen, Doom, and Quake? Be specific.
        username90 7y ago
        John Carmack was hired as a starry eyed novice without degree. A union would probably prohibit such things by enacting a high minimum wage and so on. Edit: Since you probably missed it, the question where how unions would prevent John Carmack from existing as he does now. John Carmack entered the gaming industry as a low skilled cheap abused worker, if he couldn't have done that at a young age chances are he would never have started his company and so on. Being able to work for 3 years instead of finishing your degree is an option unions likely would close.
        lawnchair_larry 7y ago
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Thanks for filling me in. My question wasn’t rhetorical, and if Carmack is right that some games literally couldn’t be made without crunch time, that does seem like a good argument that it’s not a failure even if some people find it intolerable.
- eropple 7y ago
  He's not. They could be made. They'd just cost more. The race-to-the-bottom pricing effect is not one caused by line developers and it's not caused by customers buying the games. It's caused by management and executives eating the seed corn. It's going to have to stop.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    I’m skeptical too, but I’m sure you understand why a bald assertion that he’s wrong isn’t very convincing.
  - friendlybus 7y ago
    Timing matters more in entertainment than other industries. There is an infinite amount of content you could pack into a game and it has to be delivered on time to be relevant to your customers and out do the competition. There are countless games and films at every level of investment that come out too late to be relevant, Jodi Foster suffered from that fate not too long ago.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- blackearl 7y ago
  Crunch might make sense for something that doesn't have arbitrary deadlines, like a daily newspaper. How often do games have releases delayed? Crunch is only as necessary as the employer makes it.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    His argument seems to be that much of what people call “crunch” is actually a labor of love, and that a norm discouraging overtime would discourage the level of personal investment that’s necessary to make great games.
pdkl95 7y ago
I counter with an interview with many actual game developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY "Unionization, Steady Careers, and Generations of Games Culture" by Super Bunnyhop 03:15 Game Workers Unite: Who, what, why? 14:11 Anonymous on the disposability of QA staffers 18:11 Testimonies on crunch 24:01 History of unionization in Hollywood 33:39 The potential downsides of unionization 37:39 Ageism vs. future generations

eropple 7y ago

John Carmack is not a "game developer", John Carmack is an independently wealthy man who sometimes develops game engines (or VR tech, as the case may be). Picking your random, above-99th-percentile literally-owns-multiple-Ferraris outlier and using him to discredit people who might be pulling $50K-$60K a year as line employees is downright disingenous.

adnzzzzZ 7y ago
John Carmack got to where he is by being a game developer. If you discount all wildly successful people in a field that is known to be a winner takes all environment then you won't have that many successful people to listen to.
- eropple 7y ago
  John Carmack got to where he is by owning a game development company. That does not imply he didn't work at it and it doesn't imply that he didn't work hard but the difference between capital and labor is obvious and that is precisely what a union seeks to address. (He's also a genius. And good for him for that. Most people aren't.)
  - adnzzzzZ 7y ago
    He talks about this in the video. In his own experience in his studios he never noticed someone being unfairly pressured to work more than they wanted, and he had colleagues who worked 9 to 5 and who did just fine. He also claims that from people in the industry he spoke to, most people under these situations choose to work overtime because they value their work a lot, and that he doesn't buy into social engineering arguments that people are pressured into doing it because otherwise they'd get fired.
    - aabeshou 7y ago
      well, if he's right then people might just reject the union. if his experience is biased and/or anecdotal, we'll find out the truth. either way, no point in trying to undermine or discredit grassroots unionization efforts.
      - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        The article isn’t describing a grassroots unionization effort. The CWA, a large external organization which expects to benefit from the creation of game developer unions, is pumping in an unknown amount of resources and funding.
    - eropple 7y ago
      "Never noticed" is doing a lot of work for you there. Making line employees work more to achieve goals that cannot otherwise be reached except by pushing those employees to crunch is what managers are for. Why would an executive or a founder "notice" this? The work's getting done, what else do they care about? It's possible that iD was well-run when he was there. (And, from what I've anecdotally heard, that's probably true--Todd Hollenshead gets a lot of respect from folks I know!) That doesn't mean other studios are run so well and it doesn't mean that Carmack's anecdotes cancel out, or even meaningfully put into question, those of people not in his rarefied circles. There are a lot of game developers out there and most don't have nearly the funding or the schedule luxuries that iD always did pre-Bethesda, when Carmack was most involved.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  We should be quick to encourage genius outliers, but thats not most people, and those people shouldn’t be forced into death marches to ship games. The two concerns aren’t antithetical. Major industries like sports and entertainment, both of which are a heavy mixture of average and high-performers, are already unionized without any real drag on the exceptionally talented nor their compensation.
lawnchair_larry 7y ago
But it’s still an important example, because a union would not have allowed John Carmack to exist, and we would have none of his fruits. If you read Masters of Doom, it will be obvious why.
- eropple 7y ago
  Yeah, a union definitely would have meant that half a dozen friends couldn't quit their employer and go work for themselves. That's definitely how it works. Because unions are slavery. Why are you bad-faithing your way around this entire discussion?
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    I’m not. You are making a sarcastic comment to attack straw man claims that nobody made. I think that’s bad faith.
    - eropple 7y ago
      OK, fine, then, I'll bite. If that's not the "claim" you want people to extract from your drive-bys, then please substantiate: how--exactly--would that evil specter of a union prevented Carmack and his friends from founding iD to make Keen, Doom, and Quake? Be specific.
      - username90 7y ago
        John Carmack was hired as a starry eyed novice without degree. A union would probably prohibit such things by enacting a high minimum wage and so on. Edit: Since you probably missed it, the question where how unions would prevent John Carmack from existing as he does now. John Carmack entered the gaming industry as a low skilled cheap abused worker, if he couldn't have done that at a young age chances are he would never have started his company and so on. Being able to work for 3 years instead of finishing your degree is an option unions likely would close.
      - lawnchair_larry 7y ago

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Thanks for filling me in. My question wasn’t rhetorical, and if Carmack is right that some games literally couldn’t be made without crunch time, that does seem like a good argument that it’s not a failure even if some people find it intolerable.

eropple 7y ago
He's not. They could be made. They'd just cost more. The race-to-the-bottom pricing effect is not one caused by line developers and it's not caused by customers buying the games. It's caused by management and executives eating the seed corn. It's going to have to stop.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  I’m skeptical too, but I’m sure you understand why a bald assertion that he’s wrong isn’t very convincing.
- friendlybus 7y ago
  Timing matters more in entertainment than other industries. There is an infinite amount of content you could pack into a game and it has to be delivered on time to be relevant to your customers and out do the competition. There are countless games and films at every level of investment that come out too late to be relevant, Jodi Foster suffered from that fate not too long ago.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
blackearl 7y ago
Crunch might make sense for something that doesn't have arbitrary deadlines, like a daily newspaper. How often do games have releases delayed? Crunch is only as necessary as the employer makes it.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  His argument seems to be that much of what people call “crunch” is actually a labor of love, and that a norm discouraging overtime would discourage the level of personal investment that’s necessary to make great games.

pdkl95 7y ago

I counter with an interview with many actual game developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY "Unionization, Steady Careers, and Generations of Games Culture" by Super Bunnyhop 03:15 Game Workers Unite: Who, what, why? 14:11 Anonymous on the disposability of QA staffers 18:11 Testimonies on crunch 24:01 History of unionization in Hollywood 33:39 The potential downsides of unionization 37:39 Ageism vs. future generations