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>In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities cen

>In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it. I would also argue it's the combination of smart and naturally outgoing or extroversion. Being extroverted seems to be naturally correlated to being successful or being a successful leader for most people. It doesn't make sense to me, other than I guess if you're your own cheerleader you're more likely to find opportunities.

thebean11 7y ago
Not sure about that, at least in my workplace some of the people considered the smartest and best engineers are very quite, almost shy.
- Loughla 7y ago
  I have the opposite experience. I work in higher education, at an institution full of very smart, very talented people. There's a mix of both extroverted and introverted. The extroverts are all moving up the chain, while the (generally more talented) introverts stagnate earlier in their careers. I'm sure there's something there to study, but I'm also sure I don't know what it is.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    Keep in mind "extroverted" does not mean socially skilled. My fiancee is a social ace. She knows how to make everyone feel good and always has a big smile. She connects deeply with people. But when she's done she has to spent the next three days binge watching The Wire to recover. A lot of introverts are very socially skilled, they just require time to get their energy back.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    So maybe the Gervais Principle applies beyond just corporations: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
- Tehchops 7y ago
  Depends on how you classify "smartest" and "best". At some point, the top-tier IC positions are going to require the type of skills that are commonly associated with extroverts. https://keavy.com/work/thriving-on-the-technical-leadership-path/ https://keavy.com/work/thriving-on-the-technical-leadership-... >I’ve chosen to cultivate a path for myself that enables me to dig into complex technical and product problem spaces and help lead technical and strategic direction for my organization, as an engineer but not a manager. Like it or not, if you ever want to escape the delivery trap, you're going to have to be able to effect change that cuts across multiple organizational entities in your workplace, and that's going to require selling yourself and your ideas.
salixrosa 7y ago
It's easier to hit the ceiling of how successful you're going to be when you're working on your own. If you're someone other people want to work with/for, there are a lot more opportunities that can be taken advantage of.
jlevers 7y ago
Until recently, I agreed with you, but I just read a book called Quiet (by Susan Cain) [1] about introversion, and in the book they give evidence that shows that many of corporate history's most successful leaders were introverts. I highly recommend the book to anyone who thinks they're an introvert, manages introverts, or has introverted family members -- it helped me understand/be happy with many of my own personality traits that I'd overlooked or misunderstood. (And, after reading the book, I realize I'm an ambivert, not an introvert.) [1] https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153 https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...

thebean11 7y ago

Not sure about that, at least in my workplace some of the people considered the smartest and best engineers are very quite, almost shy.

Loughla 7y ago
I have the opposite experience. I work in higher education, at an institution full of very smart, very talented people. There's a mix of both extroverted and introverted. The extroverts are all moving up the chain, while the (generally more talented) introverts stagnate earlier in their careers. I'm sure there's something there to study, but I'm also sure I don't know what it is.
- asdfman123 7y ago
  Keep in mind "extroverted" does not mean socially skilled. My fiancee is a social ace. She knows how to make everyone feel good and always has a big smile. She connects deeply with people. But when she's done she has to spent the next three days binge watching The Wire to recover. A lot of introverts are very socially skilled, they just require time to get their energy back.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  So maybe the Gervais Principle applies beyond just corporations: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...
Tehchops 7y ago
Depends on how you classify "smartest" and "best". At some point, the top-tier IC positions are going to require the type of skills that are commonly associated with extroverts. https://keavy.com/work/thriving-on-the-technical-leadership-path/ https://keavy.com/work/thriving-on-the-technical-leadership-... >I’ve chosen to cultivate a path for myself that enables me to dig into complex technical and product problem spaces and help lead technical and strategic direction for my organization, as an engineer but not a manager. Like it or not, if you ever want to escape the delivery trap, you're going to have to be able to effect change that cuts across multiple organizational entities in your workplace, and that's going to require selling yourself and your ideas.

salixrosa 7y ago

It's easier to hit the ceiling of how successful you're going to be when you're working on your own. If you're someone other people want to work with/for, there are a lot more opportunities that can be taken advantage of.

jlevers 7y ago

Until recently, I agreed with you, but I just read a book called Quiet (by Susan Cain) [1] about introversion, and in the book they give evidence that shows that many of corporate history's most successful leaders were introverts. I highly recommend the book to anyone who thinks they're an introvert, manages introverts, or has introverted family members -- it helped me understand/be happy with many of my own personality traits that I'd overlooked or misunderstood. (And, after reading the book, I realize I'm an ambivert, not an introvert.) [1] https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0307352153 https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/...