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This post also resonated with me, especially the quote from /r/cscareerquestions > Got an awesome internship at an interesting company? Well, it wasn’t FAANG,

This post also resonated with me, especially the quote from /r/cscareerquestions > Got an awesome internship at an interesting company? Well, it wasn’t FAANG, so who cares? Got a FAANG internship? Well it wasn’t one of the good FAANGs, so if you really think about it, you really didn’t accomplish anything. Got into a “Good FAANG”? Well, the other intern works on his own startup idea when he goes home. Why aren’t you working on your startup idea? Do you even have a startup idea? Are you even trying? It's absolutely not limited to new engineers. Take a look at the replies to the "Levels.fyi Annual Report" here on HN. > You can't move to the US/SF/NYC? Good luck eeking out a living. You didn't get an offer from a FAANG? Well, you don't really belong in the bay area then. You got a FAANG offer but you didn't negotiate 400k+ total comp? Good luck ever getting a raise. You made it to the top of your salary band? Well, they'll never move you up, better plan your exit now. The tech rat race mentality is very real and very pervasive.

akhilcacharya 7y ago
To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up, so the anxiety is warranted.
- astuyvenberg 7y ago
  That's precisely my point regarding the rat race - what is one trying to catch up to? Is there economic or social anxiety at 350k/yr which evaporates at 400k/yr?
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    Absolutely. Purchasing real estate (or even a Tesla, etc) is out of reach for people like me, and likely will be for 10+ years from now. Say someone makes 150% or more of what I make (ergo are valued 150% superior in a fair labor market) and they can save far more and build a their net worth significantly faster even with a more luxurious lifestyle.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      Say someone makes 150% or more of what I make (ergo are valued 150% superior in a fair labor market) and they can save far more and build a their net worth significantly faster even with a more luxurious lifestyle That person thinks the same way about someone who earns 150% more than them... this cycle never stops
      - arethuza 7y ago
        If anything it seems to get worse the further up the pyramid you are....
        6510 7y ago
        I probably make < 10%, I'm just fine here. My mind is my own. >Nobody cares if you can make pasta from scratch and it’s not going to make any money I don't live up to other peoples expectations, their expectations are irrelevant to me. I have my own expectations. I did learn to make the macaroni and perfect it. Since perfection is personal preference it's better than the fancy restaurant. The horse is behind the cart. We make the money to buy the macaroni. I go straight for the macaroni. There is no money in learning to tie your own shoes or make your own bed? ha-ha
    - astuyvenberg 7y ago
      But the person earning 150% more than _them_ isn't purchasing a Tesla. It's a Lamborghini or a Bugatti. It's not a 3br home in SF - it's a summer home in Napa, or a chalet in Tahoe. The person earning 150% more than _them_ is coveting the latest Bell Jetranger, or Gulfstream G700. The obsession for more is the same at all levels.
      - huffmsa 7y ago
        Ooo I hadn't seen that they'd announced the 700. Been holding off on the 650 waiting for a refresh.
      - akhilcacharya 7y ago
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  >To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up I'm not sure I understand. What is the point you're making? Why is it hard to catch up? What's stopping someone in a mid or low TC band from switching to another company and increasing their TC?
  - akhilcacharya 7y ago
    Switching usually means a downlevel or a lateral level transition (extremely rare that someone uplevels from a switch) which limits the upside. You'd always be tied to your prior TC in some way and the effects compound.
    - oarabbus_ 7y ago
      So? Is the point you're making that you won't be the highest paid employee in a company? Your TC is tied to your prior TC, which is tied to your internships and college, which is tied to your high school performance. Might as well take it down to kindergarten. If you're not a child prodigy, then you won't be the most talented, highest-paid employee. I'll never understand this mindset.
slumdev 7y ago
The rat race mentality keeps employers honest. For every person who negotiates top-decile compensation, there are nine people who don't. There are too many employers offering $100k for a senior dev with 10+ years of everything, leadership experience, and a winning smile.
huffmsa 7y ago
Wanting to be engineer #5549383 at a big company is a fools errand if you want recognition and reknowned. It's like trying to get famous working as the guy who bolts the doors onto the frame at the Belvedere assembly plant. The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the mouse. All of the people cited in the article (Gates, Musk, Jobs) eschewed "prestige institutions" and worked on what they wanted to work on. They're incidentally famous because of their success in other areas. The Kardashians are famous for being famous. Which do you really want?
- 0x445442 7y ago
  Of course the risk is that working on what you want to may not ever put bread on the table. There's heavy confirmation bios in play here as you only hear about the Gates', Musk's and Jobs'. The optimal approach for most is probably to do their level best at their day job and work on what they want to in their spare time. And perhaps, with luck and time, the knowledge and skills developed in the spare time can be leveraged to put bread on the table.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  Gates Musk and Jobs all came from rich families and were able to work on what they wanted to work on. The people going for prestigious institutions may actually need a job and and are optimizing for the best possible outcome.
  - paulgb 7y ago
    Also, I think Jobs is the only one who could really be said to eschew prestige institutuons. Gates went to Harvard and Musk went to Wharton (and Queen's, which is the Canadian equivalent of ivy-league).
    - glitchc 7y ago
      Queen’s is far from the Canadian equivalent of “Ivy League.” You must be from Queen’s.
asdfman123 7y ago
I've noticed something about subreddits that focus on lifestyle design and center around advice: they all start to converge on fairly narrow groupthink. /r/personalfinance is all about super frugal living and passive investing. In /r/backpacking, the general advice is to go as light as possible and spend money reducing weight. /r/cscareerquestions is about the leetcode grind and getting into FAANG. /r/malefashionadvice only really recommends a narrow range of personal styles and is not helpful if you don't want to look like that. Now, the advice is often pretty decent in those subs, but it's not helpful if you don't want exactly what they recommend. And they put way too much emphasis on the narrow range of things they think are worthwhile. Anyway, back to commenting on the article: > So why are we all doing this? Why do so many smart people fall victim to this trap of chasing success and prestige purely for the sake of it? Survivorship bias. There are a lot of smart people everywhere living quiet, normal lives. They don't necessarily seem that different unless you know them well, because they're not trying to rock the world with their brilliance. In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it. My brother and I were from a normal middle class background but both went to fancy private schools. My uncles apparently all got tested high IQs and they have thick Texan accents, they like handball and guitar and fishing. They're normal people. Their Facebook comments aren't even all that articulate. But you can tell they're intelligent because they seem to "get" things and they don't say dumb stuff.
- Loughla 7y ago
  >In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it. I would also argue it's the combination of smart and naturally outgoing or extroversion. Being extroverted seems to be naturally correlated to being successful or being a successful leader for most people. It doesn't make sense to me, other than I guess if you're your own cheerleader you're more likely to find opportunities.
  - thebean11 7y ago
    Not sure about that, at least in my workplace some of the people considered the smartest and best engineers are very quite, almost shy.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
Fortunately, there are still some places to work without such drawbacks but shhhh - they're a secret.
- christiansakai 7y ago
  Can you tell me? Asking for a friend
  - quacked 7y ago
    My friend would also like to know
- glitchc 7y ago
  Can forward your PM to my friend(s).
Balgair 7y ago
Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHt01D6rOLI&feature=emb_title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHt01D6rOLI&feature=emb_titl... Though a parody, it's close enough to reality that it's hard to tell. Which means it's a fairly good parody.
walshemj 7y ago
Awesome internships wont be paying well and wont be at a FAANG hey will be places like tier one rnd, like NASSA JPL CERN etc. And in no tech careers probably because daddy or mommy put in a god word

akhilcacharya 7y ago

To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up, so the anxiety is warranted.

astuyvenberg 7y ago
That's precisely my point regarding the rat race - what is one trying to catch up to? Is there economic or social anxiety at 350k/yr which evaporates at 400k/yr?
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  Absolutely. Purchasing real estate (or even a Tesla, etc) is out of reach for people like me, and likely will be for 10+ years from now. Say someone makes 150% or more of what I make (ergo are valued 150% superior in a fair labor market) and they can save far more and build a their net worth significantly faster even with a more luxurious lifestyle.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    Say someone makes 150% or more of what I make (ergo are valued 150% superior in a fair labor market) and they can save far more and build a their net worth significantly faster even with a more luxurious lifestyle That person thinks the same way about someone who earns 150% more than them... this cycle never stops
    - arethuza 7y ago
      If anything it seems to get worse the further up the pyramid you are....
      - 6510 7y ago
        I probably make < 10%, I'm just fine here. My mind is my own. >Nobody cares if you can make pasta from scratch and it’s not going to make any money I don't live up to other peoples expectations, their expectations are irrelevant to me. I have my own expectations. I did learn to make the macaroni and perfect it. Since perfection is personal preference it's better than the fancy restaurant. The horse is behind the cart. We make the money to buy the macaroni. I go straight for the macaroni. There is no money in learning to tie your own shoes or make your own bed? ha-ha
  - astuyvenberg 7y ago
    But the person earning 150% more than _them_ isn't purchasing a Tesla. It's a Lamborghini or a Bugatti. It's not a 3br home in SF - it's a summer home in Napa, or a chalet in Tahoe. The person earning 150% more than _them_ is coveting the latest Bell Jetranger, or Gulfstream G700. The obsession for more is the same at all levels.
    - huffmsa 7y ago
      Ooo I hadn't seen that they'd announced the 700. Been holding off on the 650 waiting for a refresh.
    - akhilcacharya 7y ago
oarabbus_ 7y ago
>To be fair my calculation is if you’re not at near peak TC band when you enter top tech companies it’s hard to impossible to catch up I'm not sure I understand. What is the point you're making? Why is it hard to catch up? What's stopping someone in a mid or low TC band from switching to another company and increasing their TC?
- akhilcacharya 7y ago
  Switching usually means a downlevel or a lateral level transition (extremely rare that someone uplevels from a switch) which limits the upside. You'd always be tied to your prior TC in some way and the effects compound.
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    So? Is the point you're making that you won't be the highest paid employee in a company? Your TC is tied to your prior TC, which is tied to your internships and college, which is tied to your high school performance. Might as well take it down to kindergarten. If you're not a child prodigy, then you won't be the most talented, highest-paid employee. I'll never understand this mindset.

slumdev 7y ago

The rat race mentality keeps employers honest. For every person who negotiates top-decile compensation, there are nine people who don't. There are too many employers offering $100k for a senior dev with 10+ years of everything, leadership experience, and a winning smile.

huffmsa 7y ago

Wanting to be engineer #5549383 at a big company is a fools errand if you want recognition and reknowned. It's like trying to get famous working as the guy who bolts the doors onto the frame at the Belvedere assembly plant. The lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the mouse. All of the people cited in the article (Gates, Musk, Jobs) eschewed "prestige institutions" and worked on what they wanted to work on. They're incidentally famous because of their success in other areas. The Kardashians are famous for being famous. Which do you really want?

0x445442 7y ago
Of course the risk is that working on what you want to may not ever put bread on the table. There's heavy confirmation bios in play here as you only hear about the Gates', Musk's and Jobs'. The optimal approach for most is probably to do their level best at their day job and work on what they want to in their spare time. And perhaps, with luck and time, the knowledge and skills developed in the spare time can be leveraged to put bread on the table.
nickthemagicman 7y ago
Gates Musk and Jobs all came from rich families and were able to work on what they wanted to work on. The people going for prestigious institutions may actually need a job and and are optimizing for the best possible outcome.
- paulgb 7y ago
  Also, I think Jobs is the only one who could really be said to eschew prestige institutuons. Gates went to Harvard and Musk went to Wharton (and Queen's, which is the Canadian equivalent of ivy-league).
  - glitchc 7y ago
    Queen’s is far from the Canadian equivalent of “Ivy League.” You must be from Queen’s.

asdfman123 7y ago

I've noticed something about subreddits that focus on lifestyle design and center around advice: they all start to converge on fairly narrow groupthink. /r/personalfinance is all about super frugal living and passive investing. In /r/backpacking, the general advice is to go as light as possible and spend money reducing weight. /r/cscareerquestions is about the leetcode grind and getting into FAANG. /r/malefashionadvice only really recommends a narrow range of personal styles and is not helpful if you don't want to look like that. Now, the advice is often pretty decent in those subs, but it's not helpful if you don't want exactly what they recommend. And they put way too much emphasis on the narrow range of things they think are worthwhile. Anyway, back to commenting on the article: > So why are we all doing this? Why do so many smart people fall victim to this trap of chasing success and prestige purely for the sake of it? Survivorship bias. There are a lot of smart people everywhere living quiet, normal lives. They don't necessarily seem that different unless you know them well, because they're not trying to rock the world with their brilliance. In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it. My brother and I were from a normal middle class background but both went to fancy private schools. My uncles apparently all got tested high IQs and they have thick Texan accents, they like handball and guitar and fishing. They're normal people. Their Facebook comments aren't even all that articulate. But you can tell they're intelligent because they seem to "get" things and they don't say dumb stuff.

Loughla 7y ago
>In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it. I would also argue it's the combination of smart and naturally outgoing or extroversion. Being extroverted seems to be naturally correlated to being successful or being a successful leader for most people. It doesn't make sense to me, other than I guess if you're your own cheerleader you're more likely to find opportunities.
- thebean11 7y ago
  Not sure about that, at least in my workplace some of the people considered the smartest and best engineers are very quite, almost shy.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jacobwilliamroy 7y ago

Fortunately, there are still some places to work without such drawbacks but shhhh - they're a secret.

christiansakai 7y ago
Can you tell me? Asking for a friend
- quacked 7y ago
  My friend would also like to know
glitchc 7y ago
Can forward your PM to my friend(s).

Balgair 7y ago

Reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHt01D6rOLI&feature=emb_title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHt01D6rOLI&feature=emb_titl... Though a parody, it's close enough to reality that it's hard to tell. Which means it's a fairly good parody.

walshemj 7y ago

Awesome internships wont be paying well and wont be at a FAANG hey will be places like tier one rnd, like NASSA JPL CERN etc. And in no tech careers probably because daddy or mommy put in a god word