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There are ways to combat poverty that are better than euthanasia. Giving people money is a pretty good way to do that. Money that they can choose to spend as t

There are ways to combat poverty that are better than euthanasia. Giving people money is a pretty good way to do that. Money that they can choose to spend as they wish. Euthanasia should be available for people who suffer an illness that makes the life not worth living anymore.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
troyjfarrell 7y ago
The perspective that "illness makes the life not worth living" is not universal. Indeed, it is utilitarian or epicurean perspectives that lead to this way of thinking. Many Christian perspectives (and, I expect those of many faiths) will hold that there is tremendous value in living and enduring discomfort and suffering. It's worth noting that these faiths spur believers on toward helping the poor and disadvantaged.
- mlang23 7y ago
  Just for the record: I have a disability (blind), and from my point of view, there is one category of people that tends to behave completely inappropriately towards me, and those are "believers". I tend to avoid them whenever possible, because they tend to treat me in a very disrespectful way. They dont notice, because their faith has trained them to treat me with a certain patronising spin. TL;DR: Not all "disadvantages people" actually want the protection of religious fanatics.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Is this: "people try to help me and I don't want them to"? Or something else? (Genuine question; that's not a negative judgement.)
    - mlang23 7y ago
      Thats part of it. Unwanted help is definitely an issue. However, it doesnt end there. The more religious a person is, the more they take their time to explain to me how bad they think my situation is. Patronisation, pittying, and a general attitude of looking down at me.
      - Hendrikto 7y ago
        > Patronisation, pittying, and a general attitude of looking down at me. Which is hard to square with the "it‘s god‘s will" bs…
  - jlokier 7y ago
    As the saying goes, "please Lord, save me from your people"!
- xorfish 7y ago
  I didn't say that illness makes the life not worth living. I said an illness that makes the life not worth living. What that is is a very personal decision and should be an option that a person can have. Note that it is pretty easy to safeguard such a system from impulse decision that are often caused by mental illness. > Many Christian perspectives (and, I expect those of many faiths) will hold that there is tremendous value in living and enduring discomfort and suffering. This is such a toxic part of christianity that causes so much suffering worldwide. Voluntary giving is no substitute for state programs that give a guaranteed safety net.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Suffering is a part of life. Do you think it's better if people just die to avoid suffering rather than learn to live the best they can despite that pain? Why do you say "causes"? Agreed on the last point, but also having to beg others to get enough food/shelter to survive ... if you want that then you need to take a look at your ego.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      A lot of people think this way, until they are forced to deal with the real and visceral physical suffering themselves. Just look at Mother Theresa. She was refusing administration of painkillers to people dying in agonizing pain at her hospitals (hospices?), because she believed that experiencing suffering in this way was a part of being a true christian and virtuous person (yes, that was her actual stated reasoning). All of this was immediately cast aside as soon as she herself got debilitated with painful suffering due to illnesses, however. I do believe there is value in suffering, but there are different kinds of suffering, and what’s being talked about here (physical) isn’t the kind that has much value.
      - jlokier 7y ago
        One of the greatest values in suffering (imho) is illustrated by that Mother Theresa story. Basically, in suffering yourself, you finally relate to what other people are going through, instead of dismissing their complaints as mutterings of inferior people. And then maybe you will care to make a difference, if it's not too late.
- UnFleshedOne 7y ago
  There might be value in living on and enduring, and you should be free to do that. What you should not be free to do is forcing others to suffer on if they don't find it valuable. Current legal situation in most places is such a force, based on misguided claims of religions to universality.
larnmar 7y ago
If people choose to give their money to others, then that’s fine. The problem with society is that it is taken from us against our will.
- xorfish 7y ago
  The reason you are in the position to earn money and the poor person isn't, is luck. No matter how you look at it. You had no influence on your genes, the culture you were born in, your upbringing and the socio economic status of your parents, how your genes were influenced by the environment and so on. All the little pieces that made you who you are, were outside of your control. Now you can say "well I decided at some point to do this, and that is why I am successful." But there are lots of factors that let you into the position to make that decision. If you had the same genes, the same upbringing and so on as a poor person, you would be poor as well. In fact you would be exactly that person.
  - sethammons 7y ago
    We should be thankful for the systems that enabled us to achieve. From roads and a government that has made things relatively stable, and we should acknowledge the dark parts of our life that have helped tailor who we are. A lot of life is chance (your genes, where you were born, and to whome). However, I firmly believe that you are wrong in your last paragraph. You can argue determinism, but that is lazy. I escaped poverty and it was a lot of work. I chose to do that and I got lucky. It required both luck and hard work.
    - xorfish 7y ago
      > However, I firmly believe that you are wrong in your last paragraph. You can argue determinism, but that is lazy. I escaped poverty and it was a lot of work. I chose to do that and I got lucky. It doesn't need to be determinism. You have no control over random events as well. How exactly did you decide to chose the way you did? Why were you able to stick to the hard work part? Of course you can assume some supernatural you that is able to make decisions for your brain. But there is no evidence for that. As far as we know, how the neurons are connected and how they interact with the rest of the environment determines all our longings and our decisions. I find that Robert Sapolsky's "Behave: the biology of humans at our best and worst" is a must read for anyone who wants a small glimpse on the topic of why humans are the way they are.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

troyjfarrell 7y ago

The perspective that "illness makes the life not worth living" is not universal. Indeed, it is utilitarian or epicurean perspectives that lead to this way of thinking. Many Christian perspectives (and, I expect those of many faiths) will hold that there is tremendous value in living and enduring discomfort and suffering. It's worth noting that these faiths spur believers on toward helping the poor and disadvantaged.

mlang23 7y ago
Just for the record: I have a disability (blind), and from my point of view, there is one category of people that tends to behave completely inappropriately towards me, and those are "believers". I tend to avoid them whenever possible, because they tend to treat me in a very disrespectful way. They dont notice, because their faith has trained them to treat me with a certain patronising spin. TL;DR: Not all "disadvantages people" actually want the protection of religious fanatics.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Is this: "people try to help me and I don't want them to"? Or something else? (Genuine question; that's not a negative judgement.)
  - mlang23 7y ago
    Thats part of it. Unwanted help is definitely an issue. However, it doesnt end there. The more religious a person is, the more they take their time to explain to me how bad they think my situation is. Patronisation, pittying, and a general attitude of looking down at me.
    - Hendrikto 7y ago
      > Patronisation, pittying, and a general attitude of looking down at me. Which is hard to square with the "it‘s god‘s will" bs…
- jlokier 7y ago
  As the saying goes, "please Lord, save me from your people"!
xorfish 7y ago
I didn't say that illness makes the life not worth living. I said an illness that makes the life not worth living. What that is is a very personal decision and should be an option that a person can have. Note that it is pretty easy to safeguard such a system from impulse decision that are often caused by mental illness. > Many Christian perspectives (and, I expect those of many faiths) will hold that there is tremendous value in living and enduring discomfort and suffering. This is such a toxic part of christianity that causes so much suffering worldwide. Voluntary giving is no substitute for state programs that give a guaranteed safety net.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Suffering is a part of life. Do you think it's better if people just die to avoid suffering rather than learn to live the best they can despite that pain? Why do you say "causes"? Agreed on the last point, but also having to beg others to get enough food/shelter to survive ... if you want that then you need to take a look at your ego.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    A lot of people think this way, until they are forced to deal with the real and visceral physical suffering themselves. Just look at Mother Theresa. She was refusing administration of painkillers to people dying in agonizing pain at her hospitals (hospices?), because she believed that experiencing suffering in this way was a part of being a true christian and virtuous person (yes, that was her actual stated reasoning). All of this was immediately cast aside as soon as she herself got debilitated with painful suffering due to illnesses, however. I do believe there is value in suffering, but there are different kinds of suffering, and what’s being talked about here (physical) isn’t the kind that has much value.
    - jlokier 7y ago
      One of the greatest values in suffering (imho) is illustrated by that Mother Theresa story. Basically, in suffering yourself, you finally relate to what other people are going through, instead of dismissing their complaints as mutterings of inferior people. And then maybe you will care to make a difference, if it's not too late.
UnFleshedOne 7y ago
There might be value in living on and enduring, and you should be free to do that. What you should not be free to do is forcing others to suffer on if they don't find it valuable. Current legal situation in most places is such a force, based on misguided claims of religions to universality.

larnmar 7y ago

If people choose to give their money to others, then that’s fine. The problem with society is that it is taken from us against our will.

xorfish 7y ago
The reason you are in the position to earn money and the poor person isn't, is luck. No matter how you look at it. You had no influence on your genes, the culture you were born in, your upbringing and the socio economic status of your parents, how your genes were influenced by the environment and so on. All the little pieces that made you who you are, were outside of your control. Now you can say "well I decided at some point to do this, and that is why I am successful." But there are lots of factors that let you into the position to make that decision. If you had the same genes, the same upbringing and so on as a poor person, you would be poor as well. In fact you would be exactly that person.
- sethammons 7y ago
  We should be thankful for the systems that enabled us to achieve. From roads and a government that has made things relatively stable, and we should acknowledge the dark parts of our life that have helped tailor who we are. A lot of life is chance (your genes, where you were born, and to whome). However, I firmly believe that you are wrong in your last paragraph. You can argue determinism, but that is lazy. I escaped poverty and it was a lot of work. I chose to do that and I got lucky. It required both luck and hard work.
  - xorfish 7y ago
    > However, I firmly believe that you are wrong in your last paragraph. You can argue determinism, but that is lazy. I escaped poverty and it was a lot of work. I chose to do that and I got lucky. It doesn't need to be determinism. You have no control over random events as well. How exactly did you decide to chose the way you did? Why were you able to stick to the hard work part? Of course you can assume some supernatural you that is able to make decisions for your brain. But there is no evidence for that. As far as we know, how the neurons are connected and how they interact with the rest of the environment determines all our longings and our decisions. I find that Robert Sapolsky's "Behave: the biology of humans at our best and worst" is a must read for anyone who wants a small glimpse on the topic of why humans are the way they are.