3 ms·

We lost tremendous amount of short term memory thus chimps can do this, we can’t

15 points by vo2maxer 7y ago

dekhn 7y ago
I'm getting tired of these "chain of tweets each ending in a pithy scientific claim that sounds really impressive but is probably wrong for technical reasons".
- vo2maxer 7y ago
  I agree with your annoyance at these types of threads. The contrast in this chain is the animated discussion between the originator and various scientists including neuroscientists, primatologists, etc.
  - dekhn 7y ago
    Maybe I'm not seeing the responses properly but it looks like nobody on the thread is an expert scientist. Within several tweets, the main claim of the OP was more or less put into strong doubt.
    - vo2maxer 7y ago
      Some of those involved in the discussion: Brad Wyble [1, 2] [1] https://psych.la.psu.edu/directory/bpw10 https://psych.la.psu.edu/directory/bpw10 [2] http://wyblelab.com/ http://wyblelab.com/ Sharon Rodobre OBE [3, 4] [3] https://lafeber.com/vet/redrobe/ https://lafeber.com/vet/redrobe/ [4] https://blooloop.com/features/twycross-zoo-sharon-redrobe-one-world/ https://blooloop.com/features/twycross-zoo-sharon-redrobe-on... Claudio Tennie [5, 6, 7] [5] https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie/cv https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie/cv [6] https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie [7] https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/fachbereiche/geowissenschaften/arbeitsgruppen/urgeschichte-naturwissenschaftliche-archaeologie/forschungsbereich/aeltere-urgeschichte-quartaeroekologie/mitarbeiter/akademische-mitarbeiterinnen-und-mitarbeiter/dr-claudio-tennie/ https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwisse... Tom Roth [8] [8] https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/1/tom-roth https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/1/tom-roth Patrick A. Jansen [9] [9] https://www.wur.nl/en/Persons/Patrickdr.ir.-PA-Patrick-Jansen.htm https://www.wur.nl/en/Persons/Patrickdr.ir.-PA-Patrick-Janse...
      - dekhn 7y ago
        checked out all your links; really not seeing how an animal vet qualifies. The people I agree with are the ones on this list who are disagreeing with the original poster, and have the greatest qualifications in the area of interest (wyble and tennie).
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        vo2maxer 7y ago
        I took your statement, “it looks like nobody on the thread is an expert scientist,” literally. It could be that I’m confused by what you mean with “expert scientist.” You qualified two from the list but questioned Sharon Redobre’s (I misspelled her name in my comment) inclusion as merely being a veterinarian. When I read her curriculum vitae [1], I can’t help but conclude that she is both, an expert in her field, primates and exotic animals, and a scientist based on the definitions I consulted [2, 3, 4]. I will not discuss the others you excluded; it would be tedious and belaboring the point. Finally, I agree with those who refuted the original poster despite his answers to their counterpoint. Someone posted a claim that was argued with civility over the chain of comments, not unlike what happens in HN. How such a discussion is tiresome, I leave to individual preference. :-) [1] https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sharon-redrobe-obe-11139912 https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sharon-redrobe-obe-11139912 [2] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/scientist https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/scie... [3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scientist https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scientist [4] https://sciencecouncil.org/about-science/10-types-of-scientist/ https://sciencecouncil.org/about-science/10-types-of-scienti...
gus_massa 7y ago
There is some discusión about how much training did the monkeys had and how much did the humans had. Which paper is has the best comparison? Is there any evidence that this is present in the common ancestor an is not a new development of the chimpanzees/bonobos?
- mattkrause 7y ago
  Cook and Wilson (2010) show data from two subjects who were trained with a regime similar to the chimp (4 blocks/day for 75 days). They substantially out-performed the chimp, which successfully completed 80% of trials vs. 93 and 96.5 percent for the humans. Paper here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45629789_Do_young_chimpanzees_have_extraordinary_memory https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45629789_Do_young_c... I wouldn't want to make strong claims on the size of the difference based on an N=3, but it's certainly sufficient as an existence proof, especially since the humans are performing near ceiling.
- jowdones 7y ago
  May I point out that it's racist to call them monkeys? The correct term is "ape". Just kidding, btw, but I recall having heard something along this.
  - gus_massa 7y ago
    It is not racist to call them monkeys, but it is wrong. They are apes. [I can blame my native language that is Spanish, where the words apes and monkeys are equivalent. Anyway, in the recent times it's more common to try to use each word for the different kinds of animals like in English. It's a good excuse, but the reality is that I was wrong.]
timoth3y 7y ago
I didn't see anything in the article that supported this conclusion. We did not evolve from chimps, we share a common ancestor, but we evolved (and continue to evolve) independently. We may have lost this ability or we may have never had it. Chimps could have developed it after branching off.
neeeeees 7y ago
I noticed something really interesting around the 2:09 mark in the video - the chimp taps a box, and goes on to the next one very quickly, but realizes that the initial tap didn’t register properly and goes back to fix it. I definitely commit a “mistap” error like that at least once a week on my phone / iPad. I’m not sure I can spot and fix them that quickly!

15 points by vo2maxer 7y ago

I'm getting tired of these "chain of tweets each ending in a pithy scientific claim that sounds really impressive but is probably wrong for technical reasons".

vo2maxer 7y ago
I agree with your annoyance at these types of threads. The contrast in this chain is the animated discussion between the originator and various scientists including neuroscientists, primatologists, etc.
- dekhn 7y ago
  Maybe I'm not seeing the responses properly but it looks like nobody on the thread is an expert scientist. Within several tweets, the main claim of the OP was more or less put into strong doubt.
  - vo2maxer 7y ago
    Some of those involved in the discussion: Brad Wyble [1, 2] [1] https://psych.la.psu.edu/directory/bpw10 https://psych.la.psu.edu/directory/bpw10 [2] http://wyblelab.com/ http://wyblelab.com/ Sharon Rodobre OBE [3, 4] [3] https://lafeber.com/vet/redrobe/ https://lafeber.com/vet/redrobe/ [4] https://blooloop.com/features/twycross-zoo-sharon-redrobe-one-world/ https://blooloop.com/features/twycross-zoo-sharon-redrobe-on... Claudio Tennie [5, 6, 7] [5] https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie/cv https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie/cv [6] https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie https://sites.google.com/view/claudiotennie [7] https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche-fakultaet/fachbereiche/geowissenschaften/arbeitsgruppen/urgeschichte-naturwissenschaftliche-archaeologie/forschungsbereich/aeltere-urgeschichte-quartaeroekologie/mitarbeiter/akademische-mitarbeiterinnen-und-mitarbeiter/dr-claudio-tennie/ https://uni-tuebingen.de/fakultaeten/mathematisch-naturwisse... Tom Roth [8] [8] https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/1/tom-roth https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/1/tom-roth Patrick A. Jansen [9] [9] https://www.wur.nl/en/Persons/Patrickdr.ir.-PA-Patrick-Jansen.htm https://www.wur.nl/en/Persons/Patrickdr.ir.-PA-Patrick-Janse...
    - dekhn 7y ago
      checked out all your links; really not seeing how an animal vet qualifies. The people I agree with are the ones on this list who are disagreeing with the original poster, and have the greatest qualifications in the area of interest (wyble and tennie).
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - vo2maxer 7y ago
        I took your statement, “it looks like nobody on the thread is an expert scientist,” literally. It could be that I’m confused by what you mean with “expert scientist.” You qualified two from the list but questioned Sharon Redobre’s (I misspelled her name in my comment) inclusion as merely being a veterinarian. When I read her curriculum vitae [1], I can’t help but conclude that she is both, an expert in her field, primates and exotic animals, and a scientist based on the definitions I consulted [2, 3, 4]. I will not discuss the others you excluded; it would be tedious and belaboring the point. Finally, I agree with those who refuted the original poster despite his answers to their counterpoint. Someone posted a claim that was argued with civility over the chain of comments, not unlike what happens in HN. How such a discussion is tiresome, I leave to individual preference. :-) [1] https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sharon-redrobe-obe-11139912 https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sharon-redrobe-obe-11139912 [2] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/scientist https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/scie... [3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scientist https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scientist [4] https://sciencecouncil.org/about-science/10-types-of-scientist/ https://sciencecouncil.org/about-science/10-types-of-scienti...

gus_massa 7y ago

There is some discusión about how much training did the monkeys had and how much did the humans had. Which paper is has the best comparison? Is there any evidence that this is present in the common ancestor an is not a new development of the chimpanzees/bonobos?

mattkrause 7y ago
Cook and Wilson (2010) show data from two subjects who were trained with a regime similar to the chimp (4 blocks/day for 75 days). They substantially out-performed the chimp, which successfully completed 80% of trials vs. 93 and 96.5 percent for the humans. Paper here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45629789_Do_young_chimpanzees_have_extraordinary_memory https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45629789_Do_young_c... I wouldn't want to make strong claims on the size of the difference based on an N=3, but it's certainly sufficient as an existence proof, especially since the humans are performing near ceiling.
jowdones 7y ago
May I point out that it's racist to call them monkeys? The correct term is "ape". Just kidding, btw, but I recall having heard something along this.
- gus_massa 7y ago
  It is not racist to call them monkeys, but it is wrong. They are apes. [I can blame my native language that is Spanish, where the words apes and monkeys are equivalent. Anyway, in the recent times it's more common to try to use each word for the different kinds of animals like in English. It's a good excuse, but the reality is that I was wrong.]

timoth3y 7y ago

I didn't see anything in the article that supported this conclusion. We did not evolve from chimps, we share a common ancestor, but we evolved (and continue to evolve) independently. We may have lost this ability or we may have never had it. Chimps could have developed it after branching off.

neeeeees 7y ago

I noticed something really interesting around the 2:09 mark in the video - the chimp taps a box, and goes on to the next one very quickly, but realizes that the initial tap didn’t register properly and goes back to fix it. I definitely commit a “mistap” error like that at least once a week on my phone / iPad. I’m not sure I can spot and fix them that quickly!