4 ms·

While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.

by snak 7y ago

m0zg 7y ago
The taxes are also much higher in Europe, especially on those compliant "upper middle class" techies we're talking about here. For anyone with basic understanding of arithmetics it's not even a question that EU techies are woefully underpaid, which is why all the good ones work in the US or for EU subsidiaries of US companies which actually respect the engineers.
- brulard 7y ago
  I don't believe this is the case. In central Europe (Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary) you can have < 20 - 25% effective taxes even including basic health insurance. In german speaking countries (Austria, Germany) you get twice the salary but that goes with higher taxes. AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. EDIT: (using the most tax-effective form of employment, which most of the time is working as a contractor. Being a full-time employee comes with so much higher taxes in EU)
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. In the US, someone like a programmer would get their health insurance paid for by their employer as additional compensation on top of their already much higher salary. The vast majority of Americans either get health insurance through their employer or are retired and are eligible for Medicare. Employers on average pay 82% of premiums for a single person, leaving on average $1,200 paid by the worker. For someone like a programmer, it’s common for employees to pay the whole premium. When you look at US salaries, that additional compensation is on top of the reported salary. So although health insurance is very expensive, you’re mostly not paying it out of the reported salary.
    - jimbokun 7y ago
      I believe the deductibles on that insurance will also be much, much higher, though, than most systems in Europe. So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.
      - rayiner 7y ago
        > So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher. Not in comparison to the salary difference: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out-of-Pocket-Spending-April-2019.pdf https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out.... About $500/year difference between USA and France.
  - mtberatwork 7y ago
    > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. Health care, housing, education, retirement are incredibly expensive in the US. Day-to-day life in the US is also quite expensive for most Americans. Most people in the US are in massive amounts of debt with little to no savings.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    > Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary The salaries that are considered "acceptable" in those countries would result in a _negative_ effective tax rate in the US. Tax rate alone is not everything. It's a combination of pretax pay and the effective tax rate that you need to be considering.
    - badpun 7y ago
      For washing dishes, yes. But senior developers make around $60k in major cities. Throw 19% all-inclusive tax rate on top of that.
      - m0zg 7y ago
        Those same people would be making $250-300K in the US, with about 25-30% effective tax rate (depending on the state), and healthcare mostly paid for by the employer. Assuming they're actually senior and get paid that much in Eastern Europe.
        badpun 7y ago
        I'm not sure they would. $60k is just typical salary for someone with 5-10 years of experience in ex. corporate Java. They are not stars by any strech of imagination, just solid performers. Outstanding people make $120-160k - and here I agree, they would probably make twice that much if not more at FAANG in SV. But, their taxes would be at 35-40%, and housing would also be more expensive. I've often considered moving to SV (I'm making $160k in Poland). According to my calculations, I would be saving up to 50% more money there, but for me that's not enough to move to the other end of the world - not to mention the gruesome immigration process.
- iso1210 7y ago
  In the UK, someone on £80k ($105k) will pay £25k ($33k) in tax. That includes healthcare In the US, someone on that amount in Denver will pay $29k in tax. That's not an extraordinary difference, even before you factor in health care costs.
  - jbms 7y ago
    It's an extraordinary difference when you look at what proportion of engineers (outside of London/Finance) earn £80k in the UK vs $105k in Denver.
    - iso1210 7y ago
      That isn't a tax thing though - payroll/income taxes are roughly the same.
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > arithmetics true, but you should calculate everything- highly subsidized education, public transportation and medical, generous grants for students, more vacation days, long parental leave etc.

While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.

by snak 7y ago

While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.

m0zg 7y ago

The taxes are also much higher in Europe, especially on those compliant "upper middle class" techies we're talking about here. For anyone with basic understanding of arithmetics it's not even a question that EU techies are woefully underpaid, which is why all the good ones work in the US or for EU subsidiaries of US companies which actually respect the engineers.

brulard 7y ago
I don't believe this is the case. In central Europe (Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary) you can have < 20 - 25% effective taxes even including basic health insurance. In german speaking countries (Austria, Germany) you get twice the salary but that goes with higher taxes. AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. EDIT: (using the most tax-effective form of employment, which most of the time is working as a contractor. Being a full-time employee comes with so much higher taxes in EU)
- rayiner 7y ago
  > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. In the US, someone like a programmer would get their health insurance paid for by their employer as additional compensation on top of their already much higher salary. The vast majority of Americans either get health insurance through their employer or are retired and are eligible for Medicare. Employers on average pay 82% of premiums for a single person, leaving on average $1,200 paid by the worker. For someone like a programmer, it’s common for employees to pay the whole premium. When you look at US salaries, that additional compensation is on top of the reported salary. So although health insurance is very expensive, you’re mostly not paying it out of the reported salary.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    I believe the deductibles on that insurance will also be much, much higher, though, than most systems in Europe. So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      > So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher. Not in comparison to the salary difference: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out-of-Pocket-Spending-April-2019.pdf https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out.... About $500/year difference between USA and France.
- mtberatwork 7y ago
  > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. Health care, housing, education, retirement are incredibly expensive in the US. Day-to-day life in the US is also quite expensive for most Americans. Most people in the US are in massive amounts of debt with little to no savings.
- m0zg 7y ago
  > Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary The salaries that are considered "acceptable" in those countries would result in a _negative_ effective tax rate in the US. Tax rate alone is not everything. It's a combination of pretax pay and the effective tax rate that you need to be considering.
  - badpun 7y ago
    For washing dishes, yes. But senior developers make around $60k in major cities. Throw 19% all-inclusive tax rate on top of that.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      Those same people would be making $250-300K in the US, with about 25-30% effective tax rate (depending on the state), and healthcare mostly paid for by the employer. Assuming they're actually senior and get paid that much in Eastern Europe.
      - badpun 7y ago
        I'm not sure they would. $60k is just typical salary for someone with 5-10 years of experience in ex. corporate Java. They are not stars by any strech of imagination, just solid performers. Outstanding people make $120-160k - and here I agree, they would probably make twice that much if not more at FAANG in SV. But, their taxes would be at 35-40%, and housing would also be more expensive. I've often considered moving to SV (I'm making $160k in Poland). According to my calculations, I would be saving up to 50% more money there, but for me that's not enough to move to the other end of the world - not to mention the gruesome immigration process.
iso1210 7y ago
In the UK, someone on £80k ($105k) will pay £25k ($33k) in tax. That includes healthcare In the US, someone on that amount in Denver will pay $29k in tax. That's not an extraordinary difference, even before you factor in health care costs.
- jbms 7y ago
  It's an extraordinary difference when you look at what proportion of engineers (outside of London/Finance) earn £80k in the UK vs $105k in Denver.
  - iso1210 7y ago
    That isn't a tax thing though - payroll/income taxes are roughly the same.
2rsf 7y ago
> arithmetics true, but you should calculate everything- highly subsidized education, public transportation and medical, generous grants for students, more vacation days, long parental leave etc.