5 ms·

>> You mention 40/80k per year being pitiful? This kind of remuneration puts you in the top 10%/5% of France population easily. That just means the rest of the

by m0zg 7y ago

>> You mention 40/80k per year being pitiful? This kind of remuneration puts you in the top 10%/5% of France population easily. That just means the rest of the population is poor, not that you should accept less. This is called a fallacy of relative privation. So what if you have to subsist on ramen and can't afford a place to live with less than an hour and a half of commute. Think of all those starving children in Uganda instead. That's how the ruling class shits in your head with propaganda. As a professional you should be able to accomplish the minimum of: raising a couple of kids, buying a residence, putting quality food on the table, and sock away enough to not be poor when it's time to retire. You should aim to make more than enough money to do all of the above while maintaining a first world lifestyle. If you're not able to do that in your profession, that fancy college degree is materially worse than a plumbing or electrical trade school certification.

snak 7y ago
While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.
- m0zg 7y ago
  The taxes are also much higher in Europe, especially on those compliant "upper middle class" techies we're talking about here. For anyone with basic understanding of arithmetics it's not even a question that EU techies are woefully underpaid, which is why all the good ones work in the US or for EU subsidiaries of US companies which actually respect the engineers.
  - brulard 7y ago
    I don't believe this is the case. In central Europe (Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary) you can have < 20 - 25% effective taxes even including basic health insurance. In german speaking countries (Austria, Germany) you get twice the salary but that goes with higher taxes. AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. EDIT: (using the most tax-effective form of employment, which most of the time is working as a contractor. Being a full-time employee comes with so much higher taxes in EU)
    - rayiner 7y ago
      > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. In the US, someone like a programmer would get their health insurance paid for by their employer as additional compensation on top of their already much higher salary. The vast majority of Americans either get health insurance through their employer or are retired and are eligible for Medicare. Employers on average pay 82% of premiums for a single person, leaving on average $1,200 paid by the worker. For someone like a programmer, it’s common for employees to pay the whole premium. When you look at US salaries, that additional compensation is on top of the reported salary. So although health insurance is very expensive, you’re mostly not paying it out of the reported salary.
      - jimbokun 7y ago
        I believe the deductibles on that insurance will also be much, much higher, though, than most systems in Europe. So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.
        rayiner 7y ago
        > So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher. Not in comparison to the salary difference: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out-of-Pocket-Spending-April-2019.pdf https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out.... About $500/year difference between USA and France.
    - mtberatwork 7y ago
      > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. Health care, housing, education, retirement are incredibly expensive in the US. Day-to-day life in the US is also quite expensive for most Americans. Most people in the US are in massive amounts of debt with little to no savings.
    - m0zg 7y ago
      > Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary The salaries that are considered "acceptable" in those countries would result in a _negative_ effective tax rate in the US. Tax rate alone is not everything. It's a combination of pretax pay and the effective tax rate that you need to be considering.
  - iso1210 7y ago
    In the UK, someone on £80k ($105k) will pay £25k ($33k) in tax. That includes healthcare In the US, someone on that amount in Denver will pay $29k in tax. That's not an extraordinary difference, even before you factor in health care costs.
    - jbms 7y ago
      It's an extraordinary difference when you look at what proportion of engineers (outside of London/Finance) earn £80k in the UK vs $105k in Denver.
      - iso1210 7y ago
        That isn't a tax thing though - payroll/income taxes are roughly the same.
  - 2rsf 7y ago
    > arithmetics true, but you should calculate everything- highly subsidized education, public transportation and medical, generous grants for students, more vacation days, long parental leave etc.
romanovtexas 7y ago
Except plumbing or electrical trade school certification doesn't help you achieve that either
- m0zg 7y ago
  At least you don't need to spend 4+ years on a degree that's not worth anything. Don't know how accurate this list is, but I'm pretty sure an electrician in my area wouldn't even want to get out of bed in the morning for 40K euro per year. https://www.buildingtalk.com/tradesmen-around-the-world-which-country-pays-the-most/ https://www.buildingtalk.com/tradesmen-around-the-world-whic...
kungtotte 7y ago
I make $42K in Sweden (not in IT), and it's comfortably high middle class. My wife doesn't even work full time and it's still enough for us to live comfortably within our means (own a house, two cars, one kid, etc.) If I'd been making $60K my wife could stop working. At $80K she wouldn't have to work and we'd still be moving into "new BMW every three years" kind of money. $80K goes a lot further in Europe than it does in the US.
- badpun 7y ago
  $80k a year in the US (assuming you live outside of a few of very high cost of living locations) will easily net you a new BMW every three years, esp. given that they're much cheaper than in Sweden.
  - ptr 7y ago
    What’s your source on BMW prices? Afaik, cars are about the same price in Sweden and the US. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Sweden&city1=New+York%2C+NY&city2=Stockholm&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Check the VW Golf comparison. I also did a quick search for a BMW i8, the price in Sweden was ~10x in SEK than the price in USD (1 USD = 9.41 SEK), and I don’t know whether taxes were included in the US price, probably not.
    - xyzzyz 7y ago
      In the US, the MSRP for new VW Golf is around $22k, so you can probably get one for $20k or less if you shop around the dealerships. On top of that $20k, you'll pay sales tax, which is 10% in most expensive places, and usually something like 6-8%. When comparing BMW prices, don't look at some weird cars that nobody buys like i8, look at popular BMWs. For example, 2020 BMW X5 here costs something around $70k, depending on the features.
- m0zg 7y ago
  Are you able to buy real estate in a decent location? Because if you can't, you're not "high middle class". Housing is not a luxury.

by m0zg 7y ago

snak 7y ago

While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.

m0zg 7y ago
The taxes are also much higher in Europe, especially on those compliant "upper middle class" techies we're talking about here. For anyone with basic understanding of arithmetics it's not even a question that EU techies are woefully underpaid, which is why all the good ones work in the US or for EU subsidiaries of US companies which actually respect the engineers.
- brulard 7y ago
  I don't believe this is the case. In central Europe (Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary) you can have < 20 - 25% effective taxes even including basic health insurance. In german speaking countries (Austria, Germany) you get twice the salary but that goes with higher taxes. AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. EDIT: (using the most tax-effective form of employment, which most of the time is working as a contractor. Being a full-time employee comes with so much higher taxes in EU)
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. In the US, someone like a programmer would get their health insurance paid for by their employer as additional compensation on top of their already much higher salary. The vast majority of Americans either get health insurance through their employer or are retired and are eligible for Medicare. Employers on average pay 82% of premiums for a single person, leaving on average $1,200 paid by the worker. For someone like a programmer, it’s common for employees to pay the whole premium. When you look at US salaries, that additional compensation is on top of the reported salary. So although health insurance is very expensive, you’re mostly not paying it out of the reported salary.
    - jimbokun 7y ago
      I believe the deductibles on that insurance will also be much, much higher, though, than most systems in Europe. So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.
      - rayiner 7y ago
        > So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher. Not in comparison to the salary difference: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out-of-Pocket-Spending-April-2019.pdf https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out.... About $500/year difference between USA and France.
  - mtberatwork 7y ago
    > AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive. Health care, housing, education, retirement are incredibly expensive in the US. Day-to-day life in the US is also quite expensive for most Americans. Most people in the US are in massive amounts of debt with little to no savings.
  - m0zg 7y ago
    > Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary The salaries that are considered "acceptable" in those countries would result in a _negative_ effective tax rate in the US. Tax rate alone is not everything. It's a combination of pretax pay and the effective tax rate that you need to be considering.
- iso1210 7y ago
  In the UK, someone on £80k ($105k) will pay £25k ($33k) in tax. That includes healthcare In the US, someone on that amount in Denver will pay $29k in tax. That's not an extraordinary difference, even before you factor in health care costs.
  - jbms 7y ago
    It's an extraordinary difference when you look at what proportion of engineers (outside of London/Finance) earn £80k in the UK vs $105k in Denver.
    - iso1210 7y ago
      That isn't a tax thing though - payroll/income taxes are roughly the same.
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > arithmetics true, but you should calculate everything- highly subsidized education, public transportation and medical, generous grants for students, more vacation days, long parental leave etc.

romanovtexas 7y ago

Except plumbing or electrical trade school certification doesn't help you achieve that either

m0zg 7y ago
At least you don't need to spend 4+ years on a degree that's not worth anything. Don't know how accurate this list is, but I'm pretty sure an electrician in my area wouldn't even want to get out of bed in the morning for 40K euro per year. https://www.buildingtalk.com/tradesmen-around-the-world-which-country-pays-the-most/ https://www.buildingtalk.com/tradesmen-around-the-world-whic...

kungtotte 7y ago

I make $42K in Sweden (not in IT), and it's comfortably high middle class. My wife doesn't even work full time and it's still enough for us to live comfortably within our means (own a house, two cars, one kid, etc.) If I'd been making $60K my wife could stop working. At $80K she wouldn't have to work and we'd still be moving into "new BMW every three years" kind of money. $80K goes a lot further in Europe than it does in the US.

badpun 7y ago
$80k a year in the US (assuming you live outside of a few of very high cost of living locations) will easily net you a new BMW every three years, esp. given that they're much cheaper than in Sweden.
- ptr 7y ago
  What’s your source on BMW prices? Afaik, cars are about the same price in Sweden and the US. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Sweden&city1=New+York%2C+NY&city2=Stockholm&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Check the VW Golf comparison. I also did a quick search for a BMW i8, the price in Sweden was ~10x in SEK than the price in USD (1 USD = 9.41 SEK), and I don’t know whether taxes were included in the US price, probably not.
  - xyzzyz 7y ago
    In the US, the MSRP for new VW Golf is around $22k, so you can probably get one for $20k or less if you shop around the dealerships. On top of that $20k, you'll pay sales tax, which is 10% in most expensive places, and usually something like 6-8%. When comparing BMW prices, don't look at some weird cars that nobody buys like i8, look at popular BMWs. For example, 2020 BMW X5 here costs something around $70k, depending on the features.
m0zg 7y ago
Are you able to buy real estate in a decent location? Because if you can't, you're not "high middle class". Housing is not a luxury.