4 ms·

Here's a thought: if the percentage of cars on the road which are electric rises significantly over the next decade or so, will the corner gas-station have a pr

Here's a thought: if the percentage of cars on the road which are electric rises significantly over the next decade or so, will the corner gas-station have a problem? I have heard that the gas is not really the source of profits, but it is the source of the traffic. If fewer drivers need to fill up (or they have to do it less often, in the case of a hybrid), will the convenience store business model be threatened? Or, perhaps, it will just more or less seamlessly morph into the corner grocery store.

leeoniya 7y ago
i submit to you, Exhibit A: https://imgur.com/UxlaMi7 https://imgur.com/UxlaMi7 i snapped it as proof else no one would believe me, like grainy, destabilized bigfoot footage.
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  Sorry, what point are you making with that foto?
  - exhilaration 7y ago
    I think he's saying that even Tesla owners visit gas station convenience stores.
Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago
If things remain the same, business will likely flourish: such station can install charging equipment as well, and since recharging takes more time than refilling gas tank, customers will spend more time (and money) on site.
- j2bax 7y ago
  Yeah but you can’t gas up at your house or at your parking spot at work.
  - scottmcf 7y ago
    Exactly. If I swapped to an electric vehicle, I estimate I'd need to "fill up" at a gas station maybe 5% as much as I do now.
    - harikb 7y ago
      Those factors can change. Currently charging at night at home is cheaper today, only because power company makes it so. Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. If they were self driving, it could charge while we work. Don’t assume everyone work place will become a gas station
      - tjoff 7y ago
        We are a long long way from that. And even if so driverless cars won't give them any other business, as well as drastically alter the desired locations of the stations.
      - NeutronStar 7y ago
        It totally depends on your power generation. Here in Quebec we have 97% hydro, so charging at night won't be more expensive than charging during the day.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        > Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. If they were self driving, it could charge while we work. Ideally cars should charge during times when energy is cheaper. This could be at times of lower consumer demand, like at night or at times when prices are cheaper because variable and barely off at all controllable renewables are dumping power into the grid, like when it’s especially sunny or windy.
      - gruez 7y ago
        >Currently charging at night at home is cheaper today, only because power company makes it so. Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. Power's cheaper at night because demand's lower. The sun being out during daytime does make more solar power available, but there's also higher demand because everyone's awake. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe that night power is cheaper because of pure market forces, rather than being dictated by the power company.
- leeoniya 7y ago
  i always wondered why the battery cannot simply be swapped for a charged one. like going through a carwash. would be even faster than filling a tank of gas. once there's enough EV, it seems justified to democratize the consumable batteries.
  - Armisael16 7y ago
    http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/12/elon-musk-reality-check-tesla-battery-swap-station-video/ http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/12/elon-musk-reality-check-t...
  - kcolford 7y ago
    This was actually proposed as a solution with a full demonstration video. I don't know of it was Elon himself who did it or someone else though.
  - harikb 7y ago
    In theory yes, but only if battery is being leased from a nationwide entity. However, practically it takes more than 10 minutes to securely remove and attach the heaviest thing in a car no matter how easy we make it. Super charging will already make it < 10 minutes
  - reportingsjr 7y ago
    This has been tried, in fact the original Tesla Model s had a swappable batteries[1], but it has never worked for a variety of reasons. [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg
    - HALtheWise 7y ago
      From what I gather, it worked fine technically, but very few customers actually decided to use it. Lots of Tesla owners tried it once, but most realized that it wasn't worth paying the cost associated with additional complexity (it wasn't free) especially since it's actually really nice to have a 20 minute break after driving for five hours.
  - 7y ago
- listenallyall 7y ago
  >> If things remain the same By definition, if EVs become dominant over ICE, things haven't remained the same. Gasoline is voluminous, and both expensive and difficult to transport and store. Electricity requires no volume or storage, and thus the need for a specialized "gas station" is mostly negated, as virtually anyone can offer it. I imagine most workplaces will offer low-cost charging as an employee benefit, thus, most people will have the option to charge either at home or at work. How many drivers will still need to stop off at a gas station then?
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    We'll replace petrol stations with using the areas for roadside stops with cafe, shop and charging station. The picture will be more like the 1950s than today with perhaps fewer overall. Humans will still want a break, lunch, opportunity to take a leak, stretch their legs etc... add top up charging to it and you've reinvented the gas station and roadside diner.
    - listenallyall 7y ago
      On long roadtrips, sure. But 90+% of gas stations are just on a random corner catering to commuters and locals who will no longer have much need for their services. The C-stores may remain, but without the necessary gas stops, there will be far fewer of them, perhaps as many as CVS/Walgreens. >> The picture will be more like the 1950s lol, is there any aspect of life today that feels like the 1950's?
      - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
        re 1950s: For how they're spaced, not how life is. Most will disappear from towns and cities, but remain, thrive and perhaps increase along routes. :p
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Something like a big fastfood chain with drive-thrus can probably soak up all that custom -- drop in for a burger and boost charge your car in the car-park for 20mins. You need to pair it with something that people will already spend the charging time doing, so they feel they're not wasting their stay. People don't tend to spend 15-20mins in a petrol station (ie "gas station") in the UK, but they will spend that sitting in their car at the drive-thru (I don't understand why they don't go in). Maybe we'll get like "short-stay malls" where there's a parking area with all chargers (and solar panels above the car-height) and around the edge are small stores with food, hairdressers, valeting services, and such like places?
  - jfengel 7y ago
    I think that people's cars are often more comfortable than a fast food restaurant. A car stereo is the best sound system that many people own. The seats are well padded, and many have entertainment systems. Why go out into the weather to sit on a plastic bench when you could stay in and watch a movie while you wait? Me, I find it a little odd that they'd rather wait in a ten-deep line than go into a nearly-empty store. But my car isn't particularly nice, and if I'm eating fast food, it's because I'm in a hurry.
thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago
The end of the article talks about this specifically. Basically if half the gas stations close down, you just have to be in the top 50% to stay in business, and because of less of competition they can even increase margins.
simonh 7y ago
Countries with fewer cars driving fewer miles still manage to have gas stations, so I think basic market economics will kick in. Gas will get more expensive, or stations will get a little more sparse, or both. After all there will still be a demand.
esotericn 7y ago
I think it would stay about the same. You would have slightly fewer drivers as people would charge at home. However, that's probably a low percentage of the total. For those that stick around, the duration of a visit will generally increase (filling up 200 miles worth of petrol takes less time than 200 miles charge, even at 100kW or more). I'm more likely to buy something at somewhere I perceive to be 'overpriced' if I'm there for longer, want somewhere nice to sit and eat, etc.
- rossdavidh 7y ago
  Interesting point. I'm also more likely to be able to leave my car while it's "filling up" if I'm just plugging it in, as opposed to if I'm refilling the gas. It could actually work out for them, even if the total number of customers goes down by half, if they're twice as likely to go inside and buy something.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    I mean, as a data point, since getting an EV I spend way more in restaurants etc on breaks. Having said that this is probably because I don't pay for the electricity... heh
tyingq 7y ago
Their second highest source of revenue is tobacco products, also in decline, and headed for more.
bluedino 7y ago
Immigrant-owned convenience stores are a big business without the gas.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
closeparen 7y ago
EV drivers will need to spend much longer filling up, particularly at high-demand times when there's a queue. Gas stations will probably transition from grab-and-go to a more café style atmosphere where people don't mind spending an hour.
- cylinder 7y ago
  service stations will be redeveloped into higher value real estate such apartments or commercial buildings. there is no reason with EV to have a separate facility as you don't need a massive fuel storage tank underneath. you'd just add charging capabilities to existing parking lots at shopping centres, malls, restaurants, etc. so you're right people will be eating / drinking / shopping while charging but it won't be at what's currently a fuel station today.
  - tragomaskhalos 7y ago
    This. In many areas, as per the article, housing developers will gobble up the land. This is certainly already the case where I live in North London, to the point where finding somewhere to fill up is becoming increasingly painful. By contrast we have charging points for electric cars springing up in all sorts of random places, including on the high street next to existing cafes and coffee shops.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Service stations are typically zoned PDR, explicitly and intentionally ruling out housing or office use.

leeoniya 7y ago

i submit to you, Exhibit A: https://imgur.com/UxlaMi7 https://imgur.com/UxlaMi7 i snapped it as proof else no one would believe me, like grainy, destabilized bigfoot footage.

redis_mlc 7y ago
Sorry, what point are you making with that foto?
- exhilaration 7y ago
  I think he's saying that even Tesla owners visit gas station convenience stores.

Andrew_nenakhov 7y ago

If things remain the same, business will likely flourish: such station can install charging equipment as well, and since recharging takes more time than refilling gas tank, customers will spend more time (and money) on site.

j2bax 7y ago
Yeah but you can’t gas up at your house or at your parking spot at work.
- scottmcf 7y ago
  Exactly. If I swapped to an electric vehicle, I estimate I'd need to "fill up" at a gas station maybe 5% as much as I do now.
  - harikb 7y ago
    Those factors can change. Currently charging at night at home is cheaper today, only because power company makes it so. Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. If they were self driving, it could charge while we work. Don’t assume everyone work place will become a gas station
    - tjoff 7y ago
      We are a long long way from that. And even if so driverless cars won't give them any other business, as well as drastically alter the desired locations of the stations.
    - NeutronStar 7y ago
      It totally depends on your power generation. Here in Quebec we have 97% hydro, so charging at night won't be more expensive than charging during the day.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      > Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. If they were self driving, it could charge while we work. Ideally cars should charge during times when energy is cheaper. This could be at times of lower consumer demand, like at night or at times when prices are cheaper because variable and barely off at all controllable renewables are dumping power into the grid, like when it’s especially sunny or windy.
    - gruez 7y ago
      >Currently charging at night at home is cheaper today, only because power company makes it so. Ideally cars should charge when the sun is up, in day time. Power's cheaper at night because demand's lower. The sun being out during daytime does make more solar power available, but there's also higher demand because everyone's awake. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe that night power is cheaper because of pure market forces, rather than being dictated by the power company.
leeoniya 7y ago
i always wondered why the battery cannot simply be swapped for a charged one. like going through a carwash. would be even faster than filling a tank of gas. once there's enough EV, it seems justified to democratize the consumable batteries.
- Armisael16 7y ago
  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/12/elon-musk-reality-check-tesla-battery-swap-station-video/ http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/12/elon-musk-reality-check-t...
- kcolford 7y ago
  This was actually proposed as a solution with a full demonstration video. I don't know of it was Elon himself who did it or someone else though.
- harikb 7y ago
  In theory yes, but only if battery is being leased from a nationwide entity. However, practically it takes more than 10 minutes to securely remove and attach the heaviest thing in a car no matter how easy we make it. Super charging will already make it < 10 minutes
- reportingsjr 7y ago
  This has been tried, in fact the original Tesla Model s had a swappable batteries[1], but it has never worked for a variety of reasons. [1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg
  - HALtheWise 7y ago
    From what I gather, it worked fine technically, but very few customers actually decided to use it. Lots of Tesla owners tried it once, but most realized that it wasn't worth paying the cost associated with additional complexity (it wasn't free) especially since it's actually really nice to have a 20 minute break after driving for five hours.
- 7y ago
listenallyall 7y ago
>> If things remain the same By definition, if EVs become dominant over ICE, things haven't remained the same. Gasoline is voluminous, and both expensive and difficult to transport and store. Electricity requires no volume or storage, and thus the need for a specialized "gas station" is mostly negated, as virtually anyone can offer it. I imagine most workplaces will offer low-cost charging as an employee benefit, thus, most people will have the option to charge either at home or at work. How many drivers will still need to stop off at a gas station then?
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  We'll replace petrol stations with using the areas for roadside stops with cafe, shop and charging station. The picture will be more like the 1950s than today with perhaps fewer overall. Humans will still want a break, lunch, opportunity to take a leak, stretch their legs etc... add top up charging to it and you've reinvented the gas station and roadside diner.
  - listenallyall 7y ago
    On long roadtrips, sure. But 90+% of gas stations are just on a random corner catering to commuters and locals who will no longer have much need for their services. The C-stores may remain, but without the necessary gas stops, there will be far fewer of them, perhaps as many as CVS/Walgreens. >> The picture will be more like the 1950s lol, is there any aspect of life today that feels like the 1950's?
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      re 1950s: For how they're spaced, not how life is. Most will disappear from towns and cities, but remain, thrive and perhaps increase along routes. :p
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Something like a big fastfood chain with drive-thrus can probably soak up all that custom -- drop in for a burger and boost charge your car in the car-park for 20mins. You need to pair it with something that people will already spend the charging time doing, so they feel they're not wasting their stay. People don't tend to spend 15-20mins in a petrol station (ie "gas station") in the UK, but they will spend that sitting in their car at the drive-thru (I don't understand why they don't go in). Maybe we'll get like "short-stay malls" where there's a parking area with all chargers (and solar panels above the car-height) and around the edge are small stores with food, hairdressers, valeting services, and such like places?
- jfengel 7y ago
  I think that people's cars are often more comfortable than a fast food restaurant. A car stereo is the best sound system that many people own. The seats are well padded, and many have entertainment systems. Why go out into the weather to sit on a plastic bench when you could stay in and watch a movie while you wait? Me, I find it a little odd that they'd rather wait in a ten-deep line than go into a nearly-empty store. But my car isn't particularly nice, and if I'm eating fast food, it's because I'm in a hurry.

thrwn_frthr_awy 7y ago

The end of the article talks about this specifically. Basically if half the gas stations close down, you just have to be in the top 50% to stay in business, and because of less of competition they can even increase margins.

simonh 7y ago

Countries with fewer cars driving fewer miles still manage to have gas stations, so I think basic market economics will kick in. Gas will get more expensive, or stations will get a little more sparse, or both. After all there will still be a demand.

esotericn 7y ago

I think it would stay about the same. You would have slightly fewer drivers as people would charge at home. However, that's probably a low percentage of the total. For those that stick around, the duration of a visit will generally increase (filling up 200 miles worth of petrol takes less time than 200 miles charge, even at 100kW or more). I'm more likely to buy something at somewhere I perceive to be 'overpriced' if I'm there for longer, want somewhere nice to sit and eat, etc.

rossdavidh 7y ago
Interesting point. I'm also more likely to be able to leave my car while it's "filling up" if I'm just plugging it in, as opposed to if I'm refilling the gas. It could actually work out for them, even if the total number of customers goes down by half, if they're twice as likely to go inside and buy something.
- esotericn 7y ago
  I mean, as a data point, since getting an EV I spend way more in restaurants etc on breaks. Having said that this is probably because I don't pay for the electricity... heh

tyingq 7y ago

Their second highest source of revenue is tobacco products, also in decline, and headed for more.

bluedino 7y ago

Immigrant-owned convenience stores are a big business without the gas.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

closeparen 7y ago

EV drivers will need to spend much longer filling up, particularly at high-demand times when there's a queue. Gas stations will probably transition from grab-and-go to a more café style atmosphere where people don't mind spending an hour.

cylinder 7y ago
service stations will be redeveloped into higher value real estate such apartments or commercial buildings. there is no reason with EV to have a separate facility as you don't need a massive fuel storage tank underneath. you'd just add charging capabilities to existing parking lots at shopping centres, malls, restaurants, etc. so you're right people will be eating / drinking / shopping while charging but it won't be at what's currently a fuel station today.
- tragomaskhalos 7y ago
  This. In many areas, as per the article, housing developers will gobble up the land. This is certainly already the case where I live in North London, to the point where finding somewhere to fill up is becoming increasingly painful. By contrast we have charging points for electric cars springing up in all sorts of random places, including on the high street next to existing cafes and coffee shops.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Service stations are typically zoned PDR, explicitly and intentionally ruling out housing or office use.