16 ms·

The Manhattan Eruv

62 points by napolux 7y ago

napolux 7y ago
An eruv is a symbolic boundary that allows observant Jews to carry out a range of ordinary activities otherwise forbidden on the Shabbat. There are eruvin in more than 30 states in the U.S., but Manhattan’s is one of the longest in the world. A nearly invisible wire runs from 126th Street in Harlem, down to Battery Park and back up to 111th along the East River. The line has been in place, in some form or another, for just over a century. It has also an official website where people can check if the eruv is up or down: http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/
- EGreg 7y ago
  I am not an orthodox Jew but I do like to investigate the truth of things in religions. I was always wondering how the Manhattan eruv was a “valid” one by orthodox Judaism since a street like Broadway — or really any street — is a dirshus haRabbim which can hold over 600,000 people at once (and perhaps does once a year, also counting the subway). An eruv originally was supposed to unite “private” domains into one super-domain. The tradition holds that it was instituted by King Solomon himself, to unite Jews who otherwise would not be able to carry things to their neighbors. So I checked — and it turns out that the rabbinate which oversees it is actually not orthodox, but reconstructionist or something. It is based on Monsey, which is home to many orthodox Jews, so hearing that the eruv is overseen by Monsey sounds like it’s orthodox. I don’t know any orthodox Jews who use it. And eruvin are basically used by orthodox Jews. (Fun fact: it doesn’t go through Moshe Feinstein’s old neighborhood, Chelsea, where I used to live, because he opposed it. Another rabbi who opposed any eruvin — even kosher ones — was Menachem Shneerson of Chabad. So in crown heights there is an “eruv dispute” between the orthodox, who use it when they eg walk strollers with their children on Shabbat, and the ultra-orthodox, who refuse to use it and post signs that it’s not to be used: https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-spreads-to-park-slope-second-ritual-boundary-vandalized/ https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-spreads-t... ). I think this is an interesting topic for Hacker News because the people here often investigate rules and reasons for them, and this whole topic — even the Talmud eruv rules themselves — is about rules and hacking in a way.
  - davemel37 7y ago
    In my orthodox circles, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was considered to be THE preeminent expert on Jewish law in America and the final voice on tough decisions...and while there are many opinions out there, I cant imagine many orthodox observant rabbi accepting an eruv that he rejected. I do not however know the specifics in this case...
  - phonon 7y ago
    1. Yes, there are various opinions on this topic. See http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/carrying-eruvin-and-manhattan/2013/05/22/ https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/carryin... and https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-eruv-part-iii-by-rabbi-howard-jachter https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-er... for example. (It's reshus or reshut btw, not dirshus ) 2. This is a good background for its institution. http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf 3. It's overseen by an Orthodox group. (It's used by Orthodox Jews, so not sure why you would expect otherwise). https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-eruv.html https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-eruv.html http://eruv.nyc/#organizations http://eruv.nyc/#organizations https://mechonlhoyroa.com/ https://mechonlhoyroa.com/ http://www.rabbimintz.com/ http://www.rabbimintz.com/
- rapunkill 7y ago
  Do you know if they could consider the electric grid as an eruv?
cainxinth 7y ago
I'm not religious, but I hate the idea of an Eruv. Who do you think you're fooling? God, apparently. If he or she does exist, do you think they are going to fall for your little string ploy?
- seemslegit 7y ago
  It's been long accepted that a sufficient rabbinical consensus can out-lawyer God itself, it's like the SCOTUS mandate to decide what the wording of the constitution really means or the Catholic papal infallibility doctrine - can't really have a law system without that sort of thing, religious or secular.
  - haivri 7y ago
    Both of the above comments unfortunately reflect a deep misunderstanding of Jewish way of life. What is generally thought of as God is not what Jews refer to as God, and with time and study, the difference between the two can be properly understood. Also, there's no fooling going on. If you want to study the laws of Eruvim, here is a good resource: https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-practical-applications/dp/1600912486 https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-practical...
    - seemslegit 7y ago
      There is no fooling going on because God is said to have promised to respect and validate these kinds of hacks, a form of devolved governance to the rabbinical law if you will. And a more conservative approach indeed does not distinguish between the word of G*d and the word of the rabbis but it is far from universal even among believing and practicing Jews.
    - phonon 7y ago
      Ta Shma "In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14). Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai
lordnacho 7y ago
There's one of these in North London as well. I know a fair number of Jewish people there, some more practicing than others. And this is indeed why they have the Eruv, it's to allow them to do some stuff that would otherwise be forbidden. Another one of these sidesteps was that you can't turn on the TV on the sabbath, but there's nothing stopping you from visiting your friend who happens to have the Spurs game on. I'll be a little bemused if I die and it turns out there's an afterlife, and in fact it was all a game of rules that you could play with like that.
- daveFNbuck 7y ago
  > but there's nothing stopping you from visiting your friend who happens to have the Spurs game on Your friend doesn't have to just happen to have the game on. You can even invite your friend over to your house to watch the game. You just can't be the one to operate the TV, as using electric appliances is considered work. It's amazing how much extra effort is required to consider yourself resting on Saturday. People will also take the stairs to avoid the work of elevators and walk to temple to avoid the work of driving.
  - JasonFruit 7y ago
    Part of that's a translation problem. "Work" doesn't really express the same concept as melakha, which is more specifically human kinds of work than expenditure of brute force.
    - davemel37 7y ago
      My understand of Melakha is creative effort not brute force.(i.e. six days G-d created and the seventh he rested (from that creative effort))
      - JasonFruit 7y ago
        If I have said that God is essentially human in His creative work, then I'm certain you could line up rabbis on either side.
davemel37 7y ago
https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e-s-sabbath-zone/ https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e... There is debate in the religious community about this eruv and others in Manhattan.
i_am_nomad 7y ago
How is this not a display of religious symbols on public property? I assume because the city government doesn't maintain it and it doesn't impede city works?
- elygre 7y ago
  It sounds like it’s just a wire. But I like the idea; my church uses the camera as a religious symbol.
  - throwaway777555 7y ago
    If it's simply a wire, why not just use a map instead?
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      It needs to be an enclosed space, no matter how nebulous that closed space is. It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Yes, it took me a while to figure out why something that doesn’t follow reason survived and thrives. The competitive advantage that religion seems to provide is that it enables a mechanism to create a tribe and tribal rituals. People need an excuse to identify with one another, and it provides a nice way to discern “us” from “them”, enabling survival in tougher times.
        freepor 7y ago
        Religion has to be independent of reason because it exists to promulgate the continued power of the people who run it. If it was based on reason, then those authorities' authority would be subject to debate. "Don't eat carbs they're bad for you"... "well the science says otherwise." So religion generally sticks to the unfalsifiable domains. In the time of the Ancient Greeks the origin of electricity was unfalsifiable so lightning came from Zeus, winter came from Persephone, etc. As science expanded the domain of reason, religion retreated to the core unfalsifiables of meaning of life, origin of the universe, existence of the afterlife, etc.
JasonFruit 7y ago
Jewish law is an amazing rabbi(t) hole that you can go as deeply down as you wish. Look at the Shabbat laws about pickling, and what is and is not forbidden under them. It's such a fascinating study that you could dig deeper and deeper into it for a lifetime and ignore the question of what, if anything, you believe about the God at its root. Between this feature and the obstacles it places before any closeness with non-observant people, it displays the rabbis' brilliance and foresight.
KoftaBob 7y ago
How is it legal for them to put something like this on public property all over the city? Do they have permits for this?
- haivri 7y ago
  Yep, before making the eruv, one must first obtain permission(permit) from the local government.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Wait till you see the millions of private cars strewn everywhere on public property, almost entirely for free! It utterly dwarfs the eruv.
  - throwaway777555 7y ago
    False equivalence. Cars are not religious.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      Plenty of cars do have religious symbols on or in them, e.g. crosses dangling from rearview mirrors, and that's more noticeable to a pedestrian than the eruv. It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
  - KoftaBob 7y ago
    Except it's legal to park your car on public streets, as long as you follow the parking laws and limitations that are displayed. On the other hand, you can't throw whatever objects you want on public structures without a permit. They're not the same thing.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      The eruv is also allowed by the city and thus legal.
throwaway777555 7y ago
You can also see a list of Eruvin on Wikipedia. Check out the References sections to see the actual maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin
davemel37 7y ago
The Daily Show did a hilarious bit on Eruv in the Hamptons. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-the-thin-jew-line http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-jon...
kens 7y ago
Some appliances have a "Sabbath" feature to get around restrictions of what Jewish law allows on the Sabbath. For instance, instead of turning on an oven, you put it into Sabbath mode. Then, when you press BAKE and enter the temperature, it doesn't display the temperature or give any response. After a random delay of up to a minute, the oven turns on. Since you didn't turn the oven on directly, it's okay to use it.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  This and the eruv all comes across to me as blatant cheating for convenience. Pressing Bake turns the oven on after a random delay, if you didn't press Bake the oven wouldn't turn on at all. Ergo you turned the oven on, no matter how much you lawyer speak your way around it. Just reinforces how ludicrous the meaningless rules are, that surround all religions.
  - davemel37 7y ago
    To be fair, it takes 7.5 years to study the entirety of the Talmud doing one two sided page a day for about an hour...and this barely scratches the surface... to have an opinion of religion without putting in the effort is equally as ludicrous and meaningless.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Just as I don't need to study homeopathy or alchemy for a decade to have an informed opinion of it, I've had more than enough education on and experience of religion to take a view. Most of it appears to be holdover from ancient and medieval periods when people of a powerful group set the rules. Which is not discounting faith itself. Which is by the by to the point -- if the rules are there, the amount of effort spent to creatively discount them feels like nothing other than blatant cheating. A sleight of hand.
      - davemel37 7y ago
        I can appreciate your perspective but I strongly disagree with your reasoning. It comes off as shallow and founded with preconceived notions and biases. Not to say i dont have my own biases and perspectives...but it would be easier to take you seriously if you simply said, I havent studied it and dont feel a need to focus my energy there. You are free to use shortcuts and heuristics in all your decision making, we all do...but its a mistake to have a strong opinion and call something meaningless or blatant cheating without even having a minute understanding of how jurisprudence of Jewish law is established.
psim1 7y ago
Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator
- sb057 7y ago
  The same concept applied to any electrical outlet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU
the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
Vienna has one as well. You can monitor if it's functional online: http://eruv.at/ http://eruv.at/ — it's being checked every week.
- supahfly_remix 7y ago
  How do they check its integrity? By physically walking around? Or electronically by passing a current through it?
  - the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
    People walk around it. A lot of the eruv are natural walls.
ufo 7y ago
There is a line of string near my house that I always wondered if it was an eruv. So I did some research today and it turns out it is, and that it is fairly recent too! http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-ipanema/ http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-ipanema/ http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-copacabana http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-copacabana / Interestingly, it appears that mountains and buildings can also count as part of the border, in addition to the string.
- cik 7y ago
  Depends. Whilst the Talmud allows for the use of natural boundaries (lakes) in an Eruv, buildings cannot be unless they're a courtyard (for example) that is fenced in. This was simplified.
mattlondon 7y ago
> This nearly invisible wire transforms much of the city into one big, symbolic home on the holy day. I am generally live-and-let-live, and don't really care what people get up to in their own private lives...but I find the concept of eruvs a bit distasteful to my athiest tastes though - you've deemed my home to be part of your symbolic home? Please - do what you want in your own home but with all due respect, GTFO: my home is categorically nothing to do with you or any religion, and I'd preferred not to be included in whatever religious machinations you have going on.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- davemel37 7y ago
  With all due respect. No one is asking to go into your house. They just want to push a stroller on the publicly funded sidewalk in front of it the same way you want to drive your car on the publicly funded street in front of theirs. (Edit: I see you removed the hateful part of your post, Ill keep this here though.) The point about a mosque sounds like either you live near clueless Jerks or you believed a made up rumor. I dont know any religous Jews that care about whats inside or outside the Eruv except their homes and perhaps local hospitals or nursing homes to visit ill and elderly when they cant drive.
  - mattlondon 7y ago
    Just to set the record straight, there was no hateful part of my post. I was referring to the uproar from the residents near where I live (which is part of an eruv) about a mosque being set up there, as reported by major press outlets: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/14/golders-green-hippodrome-mosque-plan-rabbi-urges-calm https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/14/golders-gree... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/islamic-centre-golders-green-jewish-north-london-area-islamophobia-racism-muslim-anti-semitism-a8005486.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/islamic-cent... https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/faith-leaders-condemn-hostile-and-racist-opposition-to-islamic-centre-in-golders-green-hippodrome-a3683891.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/faith-leaders-condemn... The point I was going to make was that they appear to care deeply about what is inside the eruv (e.g. a mosque). You say it is just about pushing a stroller around and they don't care about what is inside my house etc, but we can see that if someone tries to set up a mosque inside their self-declared jewish area (i.e. eruv) and it is literally national news due to the level of anger and racism.
kevstev 7y ago
My big takeaway from this is that religions can be quite bizarre. You have this omnipotent god with all these crazy rules that are required but will be totally ok if you find a loophole... maybe it's just people that are strange?
- seemslegit 7y ago
  basically Rabbis as early as 1700 years ago are on record as implying: "off-the-record, God is an entirely fictional entity, we get it, we really do, but it's a useful fictional entity to ground the foundations of morals, law and society (and our own status as its meritocratic authority) in, and in order for it to work we must treat it as real - no breaking kayfabe on this even to ourselves and even if this means adhering to the weirder laws attributed to this God from ancient times, at least until we figure a credible way to interpret them away"
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    By "weird" here I actually meant those deemed socially or economically harmful or untenable, such as slavery, mandatory periodic absolution of debts or polygamy - laws that are just weird but without direct adverse impact are being deliberately kept on as means of reenforcing in-group cohesion through ritual - aka "tradition".
  - jrochkind1 7y ago
    I am interested in this topic, can you give me more of a cite or direction for the Rabbis ~1700 years ago implying God as fictional entity? I'm not doubting it, the contrary, it seems quite plausible to me and exciting enough that I'd like the source! Rather than "some guy on HN said that some rabbis said something like" heh. And for more study.
  - vageli 7y ago
    Do you have anywhere I can read more about this? Specifically the acknowledgement of God as nothing more than a convenient organizing principle for a society?
  - seemslegit 7y ago
bbulkow 7y ago
apparently there is an eruv in palo alto. https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-eruv-approved----after-eight-years https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-eru...
nimbius 7y ago
Its worth mentioning that Manhattan, while massively larger than Los Angeles population wise, is dwarfed by the LA Eruvin which extends to cover 100 square miles. AFAIK it is the largest eruv in America. https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/ https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/ Both the NYC and LA Eruv have realtime updates for status that are taken as seriously as datacenter uptime. You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the Eruv to know its immediate status from a rabbi. http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/ https://www.laeruv.com/ https://www.laeruv.com/ devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv status, while some not-so-devout will intentionally avoid knowing its status as this isnt technically considered breaking the mitzvos.
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  > You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the Eruv to know its immediate status from a rabbi. > ...devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv status Well, except, the only time you need to know the status of the eruv is on shabbat (the sabbath), and if you are someone who needs to know the status of the eruv on shabbat, you are also not going to use a phone or computer on shabbat, so. Perhaps you might check the status just before shabbat. But surely you are exagerating at least somewhat. (I personally was aware of eruvim but was not aware there was a way to check it's status based on monitors, and personally have no idea how popular it is to do so. I just know nobody's making a phone call to check eruv status before picking up their keys on a Saturday morning!). The NYC eruv status web page (http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/) currently says "Last Checked: 1/2/2020", so I believe you were exagerating somewhat to say "immediate" status as well. It does say "It features an announcement each Friday about the status of the eruv" -- so it sounds like, yup, check it Friday afternoon before the sabbath starts, and that's the only time it's updated too cause nobody has any reason to check it any other time, okeydoke.
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    I'm curious how they check the entire system?
Animats 7y ago
The whole concept is kind of strange. If there's a god, and they care about their rules, an eruv is cheating your god. You were supposed to stay home on the holy day, but someone found a cheat code. If there isn't a god, or they don't care about this stuff, it's pointless. This is religious checkboxing. You check off all the boxes, and you're good. Islam is very much like that. Ultra-orthodox Judaism is close. Catholicism is more about intent, leading to a system based on being made to feel guilty. Enough theology for today.
- monkeynotes 7y ago
  Sharia law prohibits interest on loans. As such there are a bunch of loopholes to allow Muslims to have an economic stake in the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance I believe until recent history Christianity also prohibited loans and debt, or at least usury debt.
syncsynchalt 7y ago
If you're living in Denver, next time you're in the DTC on Temple Drive (Union Ave) look up and you'll see the fishing line running over the road between two light poles. This line forms one of four eruvin in Denver. http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map
siculars 7y ago
For those interested you may consult the section Eruvin in The Sefer Zemanim, The Book of Times. Enjoy ;) https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish/Eruvin.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish...

62 points by napolux 7y ago

An eruv is a symbolic boundary that allows observant Jews to carry out a range of ordinary activities otherwise forbidden on the Shabbat. There are eruvin in more than 30 states in the U.S., but Manhattan’s is one of the longest in the world. A nearly invisible wire runs from 126th Street in Harlem, down to Battery Park and back up to 111th along the East River. The line has been in place, in some form or another, for just over a century. It has also an official website where people can check if the eruv is up or down: http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/

EGreg 7y ago
I am not an orthodox Jew but I do like to investigate the truth of things in religions. I was always wondering how the Manhattan eruv was a “valid” one by orthodox Judaism since a street like Broadway — or really any street — is a dirshus haRabbim which can hold over 600,000 people at once (and perhaps does once a year, also counting the subway). An eruv originally was supposed to unite “private” domains into one super-domain. The tradition holds that it was instituted by King Solomon himself, to unite Jews who otherwise would not be able to carry things to their neighbors. So I checked — and it turns out that the rabbinate which oversees it is actually not orthodox, but reconstructionist or something. It is based on Monsey, which is home to many orthodox Jews, so hearing that the eruv is overseen by Monsey sounds like it’s orthodox. I don’t know any orthodox Jews who use it. And eruvin are basically used by orthodox Jews. (Fun fact: it doesn’t go through Moshe Feinstein’s old neighborhood, Chelsea, where I used to live, because he opposed it. Another rabbi who opposed any eruvin — even kosher ones — was Menachem Shneerson of Chabad. So in crown heights there is an “eruv dispute” between the orthodox, who use it when they eg walk strollers with their children on Shabbat, and the ultra-orthodox, who refuse to use it and post signs that it’s not to be used: https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-spreads-to-park-slope-second-ritual-boundary-vandalized/ https://forward.com/news/345405/brooklyn-eruv-feud-spreads-t... ). I think this is an interesting topic for Hacker News because the people here often investigate rules and reasons for them, and this whole topic — even the Talmud eruv rules themselves — is about rules and hacking in a way.
- davemel37 7y ago
  In my orthodox circles, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was considered to be THE preeminent expert on Jewish law in America and the final voice on tough decisions...and while there are many opinions out there, I cant imagine many orthodox observant rabbi accepting an eruv that he rejected. I do not however know the specifics in this case...
- phonon 7y ago
  1. Yes, there are various opinions on this topic. See http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm http://www.aishdas.org/rygb/eruvp3a.htm https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/carrying-eruvin-and-manhattan/2013/05/22/ https://www.jewishpress.com/judaism/halacha-hashkafa/carryin... and https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-eruv-part-iii-by-rabbi-howard-jachter https://www.koltorah.org/halachah/the-laws-of-creating-an-er... for example. (It's reshus or reshut btw, not dirshus ) 2. This is a good background for its institution. http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%203%20Buchman.pdf 3. It's overseen by an Orthodox group. (It's used by Orthodox Jews, so not sure why you would expect otherwise). https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-eruv.html https://www.jewishcenter.org/manhattan-eruv.html http://eruv.nyc/#organizations http://eruv.nyc/#organizations https://mechonlhoyroa.com/ https://mechonlhoyroa.com/ http://www.rabbimintz.com/ http://www.rabbimintz.com/
rapunkill 7y ago
Do you know if they could consider the electric grid as an eruv?

cainxinth 7y ago

I'm not religious, but I hate the idea of an Eruv. Who do you think you're fooling? God, apparently. If he or she does exist, do you think they are going to fall for your little string ploy?

seemslegit 7y ago
It's been long accepted that a sufficient rabbinical consensus can out-lawyer God itself, it's like the SCOTUS mandate to decide what the wording of the constitution really means or the Catholic papal infallibility doctrine - can't really have a law system without that sort of thing, religious or secular.
- haivri 7y ago
  Both of the above comments unfortunately reflect a deep misunderstanding of Jewish way of life. What is generally thought of as God is not what Jews refer to as God, and with time and study, the difference between the two can be properly understood. Also, there's no fooling going on. If you want to study the laws of Eruvim, here is a good resource: https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-practical-applications/dp/1600912486 https://www.amazon.com/comprehensive-review-Eruvin-practical...
  - seemslegit 7y ago
    There is no fooling going on because God is said to have promised to respect and validate these kinds of hacks, a form of devolved governance to the rabbinical law if you will. And a more conservative approach indeed does not distinguish between the word of G*d and the word of the rabbis but it is far from universal even among believing and practicing Jews.
  - phonon 7y ago
    Ta Shma "In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14). Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oven_of_Akhnai

lordnacho 7y ago

There's one of these in North London as well. I know a fair number of Jewish people there, some more practicing than others. And this is indeed why they have the Eruv, it's to allow them to do some stuff that would otherwise be forbidden. Another one of these sidesteps was that you can't turn on the TV on the sabbath, but there's nothing stopping you from visiting your friend who happens to have the Spurs game on. I'll be a little bemused if I die and it turns out there's an afterlife, and in fact it was all a game of rules that you could play with like that.

daveFNbuck 7y ago
> but there's nothing stopping you from visiting your friend who happens to have the Spurs game on Your friend doesn't have to just happen to have the game on. You can even invite your friend over to your house to watch the game. You just can't be the one to operate the TV, as using electric appliances is considered work. It's amazing how much extra effort is required to consider yourself resting on Saturday. People will also take the stairs to avoid the work of elevators and walk to temple to avoid the work of driving.
- JasonFruit 7y ago
  Part of that's a translation problem. "Work" doesn't really express the same concept as melakha, which is more specifically human kinds of work than expenditure of brute force.
  - davemel37 7y ago
    My understand of Melakha is creative effort not brute force.(i.e. six days G-d created and the seventh he rested (from that creative effort))
    - JasonFruit 7y ago
      If I have said that God is essentially human in His creative work, then I'm certain you could line up rabbis on either side.

davemel37 7y ago

https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e-s-sabbath-zone/ https://www.thevillager.com/2006/11/orthodox-jews-debate-l-e... There is debate in the religious community about this eruv and others in Manhattan.

i_am_nomad 7y ago

How is this not a display of religious symbols on public property? I assume because the city government doesn't maintain it and it doesn't impede city works?

elygre 7y ago
It sounds like it’s just a wire. But I like the idea; my church uses the camera as a religious symbol.
- throwaway777555 7y ago
  If it's simply a wire, why not just use a map instead?
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It needs to be an enclosed space, no matter how nebulous that closed space is. It sounds like you're trying to apply reason to religion, which is just never going to work.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Yes, it took me a while to figure out why something that doesn’t follow reason survived and thrives. The competitive advantage that religion seems to provide is that it enables a mechanism to create a tribe and tribal rituals. People need an excuse to identify with one another, and it provides a nice way to discern “us” from “them”, enabling survival in tougher times.
      - freepor 7y ago
        Religion has to be independent of reason because it exists to promulgate the continued power of the people who run it. If it was based on reason, then those authorities' authority would be subject to debate. "Don't eat carbs they're bad for you"... "well the science says otherwise." So religion generally sticks to the unfalsifiable domains. In the time of the Ancient Greeks the origin of electricity was unfalsifiable so lightning came from Zeus, winter came from Persephone, etc. As science expanded the domain of reason, religion retreated to the core unfalsifiables of meaning of life, origin of the universe, existence of the afterlife, etc.

JasonFruit 7y ago

Jewish law is an amazing rabbi(t) hole that you can go as deeply down as you wish. Look at the Shabbat laws about pickling, and what is and is not forbidden under them. It's such a fascinating study that you could dig deeper and deeper into it for a lifetime and ignore the question of what, if anything, you believe about the God at its root. Between this feature and the obstacles it places before any closeness with non-observant people, it displays the rabbis' brilliance and foresight.

KoftaBob 7y ago

How is it legal for them to put something like this on public property all over the city? Do they have permits for this?

haivri 7y ago
Yep, before making the eruv, one must first obtain permission(permit) from the local government.
CydeWeys 7y ago
Wait till you see the millions of private cars strewn everywhere on public property, almost entirely for free! It utterly dwarfs the eruv.
- throwaway777555 7y ago
  False equivalence. Cars are not religious.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Plenty of cars do have religious symbols on or in them, e.g. crosses dangling from rearview mirrors, and that's more noticeable to a pedestrian than the eruv. It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
- KoftaBob 7y ago
  Except it's legal to park your car on public streets, as long as you follow the parking laws and limitations that are displayed. On the other hand, you can't throw whatever objects you want on public structures without a permit. They're not the same thing.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    The eruv is also allowed by the city and thus legal.

throwaway777555 7y ago

You can also see a list of Eruvin on Wikipedia. Check out the References sections to see the actual maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin

davemel37 7y ago

The Daily Show did a hilarious bit on Eruv in the Hamptons. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-the-thin-jew-line http://www.cc.com/video-clips/1jsrl7/the-daily-show-with-jon...

kens 7y ago

Some appliances have a "Sabbath" feature to get around restrictions of what Jewish law allows on the Sabbath. For instance, instead of turning on an oven, you put it into Sabbath mode. Then, when you press BAKE and enter the temperature, it doesn't display the temperature or give any response. After a random delay of up to a minute, the oven turns on. Since you didn't turn the oven on directly, it's okay to use it.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
This and the eruv all comes across to me as blatant cheating for convenience. Pressing Bake turns the oven on after a random delay, if you didn't press Bake the oven wouldn't turn on at all. Ergo you turned the oven on, no matter how much you lawyer speak your way around it. Just reinforces how ludicrous the meaningless rules are, that surround all religions.
- davemel37 7y ago
  To be fair, it takes 7.5 years to study the entirety of the Talmud doing one two sided page a day for about an hour...and this barely scratches the surface... to have an opinion of religion without putting in the effort is equally as ludicrous and meaningless.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Just as I don't need to study homeopathy or alchemy for a decade to have an informed opinion of it, I've had more than enough education on and experience of religion to take a view. Most of it appears to be holdover from ancient and medieval periods when people of a powerful group set the rules. Which is not discounting faith itself. Which is by the by to the point -- if the rules are there, the amount of effort spent to creatively discount them feels like nothing other than blatant cheating. A sleight of hand.
    - davemel37 7y ago
      I can appreciate your perspective but I strongly disagree with your reasoning. It comes off as shallow and founded with preconceived notions and biases. Not to say i dont have my own biases and perspectives...but it would be easier to take you seriously if you simply said, I havent studied it and dont feel a need to focus my energy there. You are free to use shortcuts and heuristics in all your decision making, we all do...but its a mistake to have a strong opinion and call something meaningless or blatant cheating without even having a minute understanding of how jurisprudence of Jewish law is established.

psim1 7y ago

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

sb057 7y ago
The same concept applied to any electrical outlet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU

the_mitsuhiko 7y ago

Vienna has one as well. You can monitor if it's functional online: http://eruv.at/ http://eruv.at/ — it's being checked every week.

supahfly_remix 7y ago
How do they check its integrity? By physically walking around? Or electronically by passing a current through it?
- the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
  People walk around it. A lot of the eruv are natural walls.

ufo 7y ago

There is a line of string near my house that I always wondered if it was an eruv. So I did some research today and it turns out it is, and that it is fairly recent too! http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-ipanema/ http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-ipanema/ http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-copacabana http://www.kolelrio.com.br/index.php/eruv-copacabana / Interestingly, it appears that mountains and buildings can also count as part of the border, in addition to the string.

cik 7y ago
Depends. Whilst the Talmud allows for the use of natural boundaries (lakes) in an Eruv, buildings cannot be unless they're a courtyard (for example) that is fenced in. This was simplified.

mattlondon 7y ago

> This nearly invisible wire transforms much of the city into one big, symbolic home on the holy day. I am generally live-and-let-live, and don't really care what people get up to in their own private lives...but I find the concept of eruvs a bit distasteful to my athiest tastes though - you've deemed my home to be part of your symbolic home? Please - do what you want in your own home but with all due respect, GTFO: my home is categorically nothing to do with you or any religion, and I'd preferred not to be included in whatever religious machinations you have going on.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
davemel37 7y ago
With all due respect. No one is asking to go into your house. They just want to push a stroller on the publicly funded sidewalk in front of it the same way you want to drive your car on the publicly funded street in front of theirs. (Edit: I see you removed the hateful part of your post, Ill keep this here though.) The point about a mosque sounds like either you live near clueless Jerks or you believed a made up rumor. I dont know any religous Jews that care about whats inside or outside the Eruv except their homes and perhaps local hospitals or nursing homes to visit ill and elderly when they cant drive.
- mattlondon 7y ago
  Just to set the record straight, there was no hateful part of my post. I was referring to the uproar from the residents near where I live (which is part of an eruv) about a mosque being set up there, as reported by major press outlets: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/14/golders-green-hippodrome-mosque-plan-rabbi-urges-calm https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/14/golders-gree... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/islamic-centre-golders-green-jewish-north-london-area-islamophobia-racism-muslim-anti-semitism-a8005486.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/islamic-cent... https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/faith-leaders-condemn-hostile-and-racist-opposition-to-islamic-centre-in-golders-green-hippodrome-a3683891.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/faith-leaders-condemn... The point I was going to make was that they appear to care deeply about what is inside the eruv (e.g. a mosque). You say it is just about pushing a stroller around and they don't care about what is inside my house etc, but we can see that if someone tries to set up a mosque inside their self-declared jewish area (i.e. eruv) and it is literally national news due to the level of anger and racism.

kevstev 7y ago

My big takeaway from this is that religions can be quite bizarre. You have this omnipotent god with all these crazy rules that are required but will be totally ok if you find a loophole... maybe it's just people that are strange?

seemslegit 7y ago
basically Rabbis as early as 1700 years ago are on record as implying: "off-the-record, God is an entirely fictional entity, we get it, we really do, but it's a useful fictional entity to ground the foundations of morals, law and society (and our own status as its meritocratic authority) in, and in order for it to work we must treat it as real - no breaking kayfabe on this even to ourselves and even if this means adhering to the weirder laws attributed to this God from ancient times, at least until we figure a credible way to interpret them away"
- seemslegit 7y ago
  By "weird" here I actually meant those deemed socially or economically harmful or untenable, such as slavery, mandatory periodic absolution of debts or polygamy - laws that are just weird but without direct adverse impact are being deliberately kept on as means of reenforcing in-group cohesion through ritual - aka "tradition".
- jrochkind1 7y ago
  I am interested in this topic, can you give me more of a cite or direction for the Rabbis ~1700 years ago implying God as fictional entity? I'm not doubting it, the contrary, it seems quite plausible to me and exciting enough that I'd like the source! Rather than "some guy on HN said that some rabbis said something like" heh. And for more study.
- vageli 7y ago
  Do you have anywhere I can read more about this? Specifically the acknowledgement of God as nothing more than a convenient organizing principle for a society?
- seemslegit 7y ago

bbulkow 7y ago

apparently there is an eruv in palo alto. https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-eruv-approved----after-eight-years https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2007/06/19/palo-alto-eru...

nimbius 7y ago

Its worth mentioning that Manhattan, while massively larger than Los Angeles population wise, is dwarfed by the LA Eruvin which extends to cover 100 square miles. AFAIK it is the largest eruv in America. https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/ https://jewishjournal.com/news/los_angeles/community/6241/ Both the NYC and LA Eruv have realtime updates for status that are taken as seriously as datacenter uptime. You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the Eruv to know its immediate status from a rabbi. http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/ https://www.laeruv.com/ https://www.laeruv.com/ devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv status, while some not-so-devout will intentionally avoid knowing its status as this isnt technically considered breaking the mitzvos.

jrochkind1 7y ago
> You can call virtually any Schul/temple in the Eruv to know its immediate status from a rabbi. > ...devout jews dont so much as pick up a house key without knowing the Eruv status Well, except, the only time you need to know the status of the eruv is on shabbat (the sabbath), and if you are someone who needs to know the status of the eruv on shabbat, you are also not going to use a phone or computer on shabbat, so. Perhaps you might check the status just before shabbat. But surely you are exagerating at least somewhat. (I personally was aware of eruvim but was not aware there was a way to check it's status based on monitors, and personally have no idea how popular it is to do so. I just know nobody's making a phone call to check eruv status before picking up their keys on a Saturday morning!). The NYC eruv status web page (http://eruv.nyc/ http://eruv.nyc/) currently says "Last Checked: 1/2/2020", so I believe you were exagerating somewhat to say "immediate" status as well. It does say "It features an announcement each Friday about the status of the eruv" -- so it sounds like, yup, check it Friday afternoon before the sabbath starts, and that's the only time it's updated too cause nobody has any reason to check it any other time, okeydoke.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  I'm curious how they check the entire system?

Animats 7y ago

The whole concept is kind of strange. If there's a god, and they care about their rules, an eruv is cheating your god. You were supposed to stay home on the holy day, but someone found a cheat code. If there isn't a god, or they don't care about this stuff, it's pointless. This is religious checkboxing. You check off all the boxes, and you're good. Islam is very much like that. Ultra-orthodox Judaism is close. Catholicism is more about intent, leading to a system based on being made to feel guilty. Enough theology for today.

monkeynotes 7y ago
Sharia law prohibits interest on loans. As such there are a bunch of loopholes to allow Muslims to have an economic stake in the game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance I believe until recent history Christianity also prohibited loans and debt, or at least usury debt.

syncsynchalt 7y ago

If you're living in Denver, next time you're in the DTC on Temple Drive (Union Ave) look up and you'll see the fishing line running over the road between two light poles. This line forms one of four eruvin in Denver. http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map http://denvereruv.com/denver-eruv-map

siculars 7y ago

For those interested you may consult the section Eruvin in The Sefer Zemanim, The Book of Times. Enjoy ;) https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish/Eruvin.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/935286/jewish...