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Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginnin

Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.
- nexuist 7y ago
  In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghanistan was simply assuming that you could establish democracy anywhere and then the citizens of the country would come together to form a functional democratic government. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it [1]. I don't really believe the air strike was conducted with good intentions. But it may end up having a positive side effect for the Iranian people if the current government is ousted. I'll end this by posting something I wrote earlier on reddit: "I mean, it's really an interesting conundrum, when is war with anyone ever a good idea? And yet over the course of history there are several wars we have fought that are more or less universally accepted as being good ideas: the Revolutionary War, World War I, and World War II. So obviously, at some point, the calculation must be worth it. But I don't know if it is possible for any human being to perform that calculation with the mental capacity we are all given. What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forces led to a general improvement on quality of life of Iraqi and Afghani citizens. I know the gut reaction is "obviously not" but neither of us are likely living in those countries at the moment, and so we really don't know how life has changed for them. The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests
  - emilsedgh 7y ago
    You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickening. You _saw_ what the U.S. did to Iraq and Afghanistan and you're "still" thinking the way to bring democracy to the country next to them is bombs? Don't you think you should be more responsible than that? What if you are wrong? What if another Iraq came out of this? By withdrawing from Iran's nuclear deal, U.S. practically destroyed any chance of a peaceful path for Iran to democracy. JCPOA was the last chance for reformers in Iran to have a say. After the U.S. withdrawal, they have 0 credibility left with the people. Now hardliners have all the power and noone talks about reform anymore. Diplomacy is dead. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it. U.S. is basically suffocating Iran with it's sanctions and people are hungry. These are not people who want democracy or freedom of press or separation of powers. They are people who are burning banks and want blood. No democracy is coming out of this. This [0] is an organization of Iranians in diaspora, trying to form a council to help Iran have a proper transition in case the Islamic Republic fails and even their current CEO believes at the moment, the chance of a peaceful transition are not high and Iran becoming Syria is far more likely. In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. I know that you are not responsible for these actions and you are probably a normal software engineer or something and probably a nice person. But U.S. is a democracy and people who do have the power, get their power from your thoughts and your vote. So I do hold you responsible for the actions of your government. Therefore, if you find another war "fresh", please, fuck off. Your ignorance is harmful. My apologies for personal attack. [0] http://www.transitioncouncilofiran.org/index.html http://www.transitioncouncilofiran.org/index.html
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      Please tell me that 'watan-farosh' MEK is not behind that link.
    - 7y ago
selimthegrim 7y ago
How was Mossadeq a democrat when he was starting to pay people off in the Majlis?
leereeves 7y ago
As an Iranian living in the US, what's your perspective on the recent claims by US officials: things like Iran attacking civilians in Saudi Arabia and US forces in SA and Iraq, seizing tankers, and supporting militias who were attempting to take over Iraq and killing protestors there? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-killed-1-000-protesters-n1096666 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-ki... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-official-ok-d-attacks-american-military-n1003421 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-off... https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19/middleeast/british-tanker-seized-iran-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19/middleeast/british-tanker-sei...
- emilsedgh 7y ago
  They didn't happen in a vacuum. The U.S. is suffocating Iran. The sanctions doesn't allow anybody in the world to have any commerce with Iran. I was fully onboard with Obama's sanctions. They had a clear ask: Stop the nuclear development. Everybody understood it and is was clear. Iran agreed to JCPOA and stopped any nuclear development. Why is Iran under sanctions now? They have given a list of demands and it's basically a big fuck you to the Islamic Republic that is never going to happen. If someone tries to suffocate you, you are going to kick back. I'm not a fan of Islamic Republic. Fuck them. But at least during the Obama administration, the immediate threat (Nuclear development) was stopped and there was a dialogue. The two countries had direct lines of communication and even helped each other out fighting ISIS. Reformists in Iran gained credibility and power, and slowly Iran could've gotten back to a democratic path. Now, reformists are cast out and have 0 credibility with people. Hardliners in Iran have power. And they are being suffocated, so they kick back by attacking ships, drones or tankers or arresting innocent people.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    If could understand if Iraq struck back at the US. But kicking back at the US by seizing a British oil tanker or attacking Saudi civilians and Iraqi protestors?
    - 7y ago

dr_dshiv 7y ago

I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.

nexuist 7y ago
In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghanistan was simply assuming that you could establish democracy anywhere and then the citizens of the country would come together to form a functional democratic government. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it [1]. I don't really believe the air strike was conducted with good intentions. But it may end up having a positive side effect for the Iranian people if the current government is ousted. I'll end this by posting something I wrote earlier on reddit: "I mean, it's really an interesting conundrum, when is war with anyone ever a good idea? And yet over the course of history there are several wars we have fought that are more or less universally accepted as being good ideas: the Revolutionary War, World War I, and World War II. So obviously, at some point, the calculation must be worth it. But I don't know if it is possible for any human being to perform that calculation with the mental capacity we are all given. What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forces led to a general improvement on quality of life of Iraqi and Afghani citizens. I know the gut reaction is "obviously not" but neither of us are likely living in those countries at the moment, and so we really don't know how life has changed for them. The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests
- emilsedgh 7y ago
  You think waging war is the way to bring democracy to Iran? Iran is a country next to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq. It's an enemy to _both_ Saudi Arabia and Israel. And you think destabilizing it will be followed by a democratic government and not a rush of ISIS-Taliban-Al-whatever? Iran is made of dozens of different ethnicities. What if it became a Libyia and different regions started a civil war? This is sickening. You _saw_ what the U.S. did to Iraq and Afghanistan and you're "still" thinking the way to bring democracy to the country next to them is bombs? Don't you think you should be more responsible than that? What if you are wrong? What if another Iraq came out of this? By withdrawing from Iran's nuclear deal, U.S. practically destroyed any chance of a peaceful path for Iran to democracy. JCPOA was the last chance for reformers in Iran to have a say. After the U.S. withdrawal, they have 0 credibility left with the people. Now hardliners have all the power and noone talks about reform anymore. Diplomacy is dead. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it. U.S. is basically suffocating Iran with it's sanctions and people are hungry. These are not people who want democracy or freedom of press or separation of powers. They are people who are burning banks and want blood. No democracy is coming out of this. This [0] is an organization of Iranians in diaspora, trying to form a council to help Iran have a proper transition in case the Islamic Republic fails and even their current CEO believes at the moment, the chance of a peaceful transition are not high and Iran becoming Syria is far more likely. In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. I know that you are not responsible for these actions and you are probably a normal software engineer or something and probably a nice person. But U.S. is a democracy and people who do have the power, get their power from your thoughts and your vote. So I do hold you responsible for the actions of your government. Therefore, if you find another war "fresh", please, fuck off. Your ignorance is harmful. My apologies for personal attack. [0] http://www.transitioncouncilofiran.org/index.html http://www.transitioncouncilofiran.org/index.html
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Please tell me that 'watan-farosh' MEK is not behind that link.
  - 7y ago

selimthegrim 7y ago

How was Mossadeq a democrat when he was starting to pay people off in the Majlis?

leereeves 7y ago

As an Iranian living in the US, what's your perspective on the recent claims by US officials: things like Iran attacking civilians in Saudi Arabia and US forces in SA and Iraq, seizing tankers, and supporting militias who were attempting to take over Iraq and killing protestors there? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-killed-1-000-protesters-n1096666 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-says-iran-may-have-ki... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-official-ok-d-attacks-american-military-n1003421 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/u-s-officials-iran-off... https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19/middleeast/british-tanker-seized-iran-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/19/middleeast/british-tanker-sei...

emilsedgh 7y ago
They didn't happen in a vacuum. The U.S. is suffocating Iran. The sanctions doesn't allow anybody in the world to have any commerce with Iran. I was fully onboard with Obama's sanctions. They had a clear ask: Stop the nuclear development. Everybody understood it and is was clear. Iran agreed to JCPOA and stopped any nuclear development. Why is Iran under sanctions now? They have given a list of demands and it's basically a big fuck you to the Islamic Republic that is never going to happen. If someone tries to suffocate you, you are going to kick back. I'm not a fan of Islamic Republic. Fuck them. But at least during the Obama administration, the immediate threat (Nuclear development) was stopped and there was a dialogue. The two countries had direct lines of communication and even helped each other out fighting ISIS. Reformists in Iran gained credibility and power, and slowly Iran could've gotten back to a democratic path. Now, reformists are cast out and have 0 credibility with people. Hardliners in Iran have power. And they are being suffocated, so they kick back by attacking ships, drones or tankers or arresting innocent people.
- leereeves 7y ago
  If could understand if Iraq struck back at the US. But kicking back at the US by seizing a British oil tanker or attacking Saudi civilians and Iraqi protestors?
  - 7y ago