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Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are

by thdrdt 7y ago

Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. Well this article again shows that there are few countries that will not gain power over dead people. It's sad but true. Now imagine you were living in Iran and came to know about the work of the CIA. Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? I think it would be best if we look at people in other countries without judgement and try to understand their point of view. Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life.

trevyn 7y ago
Can we have a new site rule to not allow straw men?
- thdrdt 7y ago
  Well what else can we make of this? The only way forward is to stop judging people and come closer so we can start to understand each other.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Arguments that start on false premises can lead anywhere and appear valid. It’s logically not constructive. I’m thinking of the logic table for the implication.
    - thdrdt 7y ago
      Can you explain what you are trying to say? Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.
      - ianai 7y ago
        I already did.
        surewhynat 7y ago
        Can you please point out where you think it is flawed. Constructive criticism can lead to truth, so, if you disagree you should state so, but, also state why you disagree so that there can be a discussion.
      - Yizahi 7y ago
        Iran, China and Russia are bad guys. Iran, China and Russia are worse that USA or any other country by whatever metric you would pick. Land area annexed in square kilometers or thousands of humans killed - pick any. Over any single point in time or any time period.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ianai 7y ago
How do you assess the POV of someone under a regime of control and propaganda from dictators or tyrants? Assume they’re suffering and just hoping for a better tomorrow and you might be wrong. Hostages are known to grow emotions for their captors, after all. And outside attacks on groups lead to in-group insulation and doubling down on beliefs. Studying cultists has shown this trend. So I don’t know. One thing a lot of these regimes have in common is oil wealth. Oil wealth tends to drive any other industries out of a country, insulate power around the ruling class, and lead to dictatorships and similar. Definitely getting humanity to use non oil energy sources ASAP would help lower the pressures, I hope.
- thdrdt 7y ago
  What if you are under a regime without healthcare, loads of homeless people, extreme border patrol and police, and all you hear is that it's the land of opportunities where you can make it? The above might sound unfair but think about it. I believe there is propaganda in almost every country. And when oil is gone there will be something else. Probably Artificial Intelligence. Also check out a current trending item in HN about the US limiting the export of AI.
  - Dinux 7y ago
    Yes, but to a broader perspective the western world has at least 'some' degree of freedom. The same cannot be said for many parts of the world including much of the middle east
    - thdrdt 7y ago
      In the western world 'debt' is also promoted as freedom. So it's all about your definition of what freedom is. My personal definition of freedom is 'free of debt'
      - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
        Freedom is basically capital, because the US is a plutocracy. You're either lucky enough to inherit economic freedom, or you can buy it - if you make enough money to be free of all debt and acquire substantial capital. The opportunities to do this are strictly limited and anyone starting cold is against very tough odds. And the activities that are rewarded are strongly biased towards rent-seeking and monopolistic market exploitation over less aggressively self-serving provision of goods and services. Obviously it's not impossible. But if you want true economic freedom, your personal and professional choices are - ironically - very tightly constrained.
missosoup 7y ago
China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they got to being superpwers.
- GorgeIo 7y ago
  "...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukraine as an instrument. Who is loading the Eastern Europeran borders with Russia with arms and NATO personnel? Syria was saved by Russia as the jihadists were supported by yours trully US puppet. Please stop this nonsense. Use your brain.
  - missosoup 7y ago
    This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.
    - ianai 7y ago
      Kind of sad the text is gone for lack of reference. You nailed it on the nose.
      - wizzwizz4 7y ago
        It's not gone, just dead. You can enable viewing dead posts on your profile (but I really do not recommend it; they're dead for a reason).
emilsedgh 7y ago
Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.
  - nexuist 7y ago
    In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghanistan was simply assuming that you could establish democracy anywhere and then the citizens of the country would come together to form a functional democratic government. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it [1]. I don't really believe the air strike was conducted with good intentions. But it may end up having a positive side effect for the Iranian people if the current government is ousted. I'll end this by posting something I wrote earlier on reddit: "I mean, it's really an interesting conundrum, when is war with anyone ever a good idea? And yet over the course of history there are several wars we have fought that are more or less universally accepted as being good ideas: the Revolutionary War, World War I, and World War II. So obviously, at some point, the calculation must be worth it. But I don't know if it is possible for any human being to perform that calculation with the mental capacity we are all given. What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forces led to a general improvement on quality of life of Iraqi and Afghani citizens. I know the gut reaction is "obviously not" but neither of us are likely living in those countries at the moment, and so we really don't know how life has changed for them. The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests
lowdose 7y ago
I completely agree with you. I do think China is becoming more and more the example people are looking at how to make progress. Politics aside the growth in wealth and it's distribution over the last 30 years have been magic. Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy". I'm not under such a opinion but I find it increasingly hard to have a normal conversation about the USA and it's form of the human experiment without hitting a wall of generalised criticism that ends up in stalemate. Considering what we know what the CIA has done in the past. What kind of shadow government is functioning without consent of the people. The media institutions that suppose to keep that power in check never really informed the public on these developments. And on top the revelation of the catholic church being the biggest pedofile network that hitted the American society probably a lot harder than Europe because of stronger religious sentiments. All things combined for me it is not strange an anti establishment campaign won the presidency. Friends, family, people that have watched movies like the Irishman, Spotlight, the Good Shepherd are not really open to adjust their point of view on the States. Iran, China and Russia are however topics where nuanced opinion still is expressed.
- AtlasLion 7y ago
  "Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy"" That's a very simplistic view of people outside the USA. Unlike US news that do no mention US proxy wars, veto votes and the like, other countries are well aware of US foreign policy and the terror it brings with it, be it in south America, Africa, the middle east or elsewhere.
  - lowdose 7y ago
    Off course my opinion is based on a very selective draw during traveling to many countries. However the conversation has been trending more and more negative on the United States topic and it's form of "democracy". Noam Chomsky has written elaborate on corporatism and i think this POTUS function as an amplifier. I argue people are not bad informed but do generalize bad malpractice elements of the USA to all Americans. The election of this president and everything that followed is seen as evidence by many people the USA is crazy. And my understanding of the people living in the USA is they are still viewing bad malpractice as unintended consequence of the capitalism experiment initiated by the other politic parties behavior on either side of the coin. In contrast Putin is not Russia and Xi is not China.
entropyneur 7y ago
I'm not sure what kind mental leap would take one from "USA has terrible foreign policy" to "authoritarianism is the way to go for my country". It just doesn't seem to be plausible. The fun thing about authoritarianism though is that you don't really have to want it to end up under it.
- ljw1001 7y ago
  I'm not sure that's the argument people are making. For Iran, it was US overthrew our fledgling democracy and replaced him with a tyrant, whose oppression led to a(n Islamic) revolution, which just gave us a different kind of tyrant. Part of the issue we see in the Middle East, IMO, is that Islamists got the upper hand because they were the only organizations that were tolerated under the oppressive regimes that existed in so many places (Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Gulf states, Egypt,...).
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    Regarding Iran, the Shah was a stooge and Western influence was seen as too strong. We often see pictures of women in miniskirts in Tehran during the 70s like if that was a sign of a great time... except that the Iranian population was more conservative and did not see that as a positive. The Islamists were both nationalists and traditionalists and got the upper hand because of that. Iran is a great and old culture and civilisation and, like perhaps China, they won't let foreigners take over and dictate the rules. Unfortunately, it looks like the USA still don't get that.
hyko 7y ago
Most western people are against the authoritarian regimes governing the aforementioned countries, for the obvious reason that they are an abomination to people who believe in human flourishing. The countries themselves are not capable of being good or bad, as they exist only in the human imagination.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
fit2rule 7y ago
The People of America may not want war. But the people of USA™, Inc. do. Which one are you? >Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life. The people get the leaders they deserve. This is because people are the ultimate power - convince enough people to go along with you overtly: you're a dictator. Covertly: you're a 1% of 1%'er, who knows the right strings to pull in the world. In the end, neither of these conditions can occur unless the people, in their enthusiasm or in their apathy, allow it.
- twobat 7y ago
  > The people get the leaders they deserve. No, they don't. There's no voting system that allows everyone to be represented.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    Yes, they do. Nobody is ruled without their own complicity.
haecceity 7y ago
Unfortunately most people cannot see things from another’s point of view.
wslh 7y ago
The world is not black and white but I would say that democracy, with all its faults, offers more instruments for a good change and sadly people are not educated to play a role.
alamaslah 7y ago
No, western people do not care about Iran and China, providing they are not actively making their lives worse. And vice versa. I think the attitude you are expecting people to have is insulting both ways. You are denying the Iranians and Chinese have any agency...Do you really think they or their Goverments spend all their time just reacting? Ps. If you say to someone in the west "What do you think of those re-education camps?" they will reply "Sounds like a university". Sadly, they are not completely wrong.
aasasd 7y ago
> the USA is the greatest country in the world > and democracy is the way to go Democracy = USA? Hmmm, didn't know that.
Youden 7y ago
> Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west. Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems I'm definitely not alone [0]. [0]: https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/ https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/
- Yizahi 7y ago
  Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.
  - Retric 7y ago
    You might be directly impacted, but in terms of most countries invaded or people killed over the last say 100 years I think the US is rather ahead. Making them a bigger problem for the world even if Russia is a bigger problem for you. Personally as an American I kind of like being part of the ‘evil’ empire. But, I can definitely understand why others might take issue with our actions.
    - Yizahi 7y ago
      USA killed more people that Russia/USSR over last 100 years? USA annexed more territories than Russia/USSR over last 100 years? Please tell me you are kidding. China is indisputable leader in killing civilians EVER in human history and also quite happy to annex nearby territories. Iran - about the same. If you want to glorify objectively worse entities just for the sake of hating on USA (justified or not) - feel free to do so, I have never seem USA haters to change their opinions.
Yizahi 7y ago
We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.
- forgetfulusr 7y ago
  and you can say the same about the US. You don't have to repeat it all over the thread. we should stop looking at everything as black and white. Lets discuss reason why it ia in the current state. Would Iran be in this position today if we hadn't tried to install our democracy to them back in the 50s?
  - iknowalot 7y ago
    Stealing oil from the Iranian people was/is the priority. Just like stealing lithium from the Bolivian people is.
  - Yizahi 7y ago
    First - I never said that USA is good or did nothing bad. Second - what I was saying is exactly what you have said - world is not black and white, there is lots of grades in between. And in such fine grained world USA is higher (whiter) than Russia, China and Iran, and by a lot. Now to your direct question - USA did a lot of bad stuff and nobody denies it, they did bad stuff in 20th century and in 21st. But again - in comparison China, Russia and Iran are much worse. We can't deny punishment for a killer because of bad childhood, at best we can find killer's offender and punish him too accordingly. Same with USA - they should be held accountable, but only for their own actions, same as other countries.
tuesday20 7y ago
There is this tedX talk. I forgot the name. Someone made an app that connects people with polar opposite views. They meet in person and talk. Many times, they Gain respect for other person’s view point, and many people changed their opinion too. We all live in our bubbles, me included. If we took 5 mins to look from opposite side, we’d have less conflicts. The internet was supposed to bring people together. Instead we are all in some echo chamber or the other. Companies like Facebook profit handsomely from it too
m-p-3 7y ago
> try to understand their point of view Everything would be better in this world if we did.
gohi77 7y ago
This isn’t a perfect observation but 25% of Beverly Hills is Persian. Of course, these were a lot of wealthy families who left Iran in the 70s and then helped build one of the best cities in the United States. With a fairly high percentage of Orthodox people. Is it the systems involved, the religions, the wealth applied to a free society or just luck that created these two outcomes?
tiatia 7y ago
"Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'." All these countries are not really a problem. Yet, the US has the most corrupt, the most rotten country in the world, Saudi Arabia, as an ally.
unapologetic 7y ago
> Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? Why would anyone think that? It's an absurd question frankly. You don't need to feel that way to be an ally of the US. Is there a single US ally that thinks that at this point? The US is deeply flawed country, even more than most. The difference is that Iranians have every reason to hate the US.

by thdrdt 7y ago

trevyn 7y ago

Can we have a new site rule to not allow straw men?

thdrdt 7y ago
Well what else can we make of this? The only way forward is to stop judging people and come closer so we can start to understand each other.
- ianai 7y ago
  Arguments that start on false premises can lead anywhere and appear valid. It’s logically not constructive. I’m thinking of the logic table for the implication.
  - thdrdt 7y ago
    Can you explain what you are trying to say? Do you think the base of my argument is false? If so it would be helpful to point out why you think it is.
    - ianai 7y ago
      I already did.
      - surewhynat 7y ago
        Can you please point out where you think it is flawed. Constructive criticism can lead to truth, so, if you disagree you should state so, but, also state why you disagree so that there can be a discussion.
    - Yizahi 7y ago
      Iran, China and Russia are bad guys. Iran, China and Russia are worse that USA or any other country by whatever metric you would pick. Land area annexed in square kilometers or thousands of humans killed - pick any. Over any single point in time or any time period.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ianai 7y ago

How do you assess the POV of someone under a regime of control and propaganda from dictators or tyrants? Assume they’re suffering and just hoping for a better tomorrow and you might be wrong. Hostages are known to grow emotions for their captors, after all. And outside attacks on groups lead to in-group insulation and doubling down on beliefs. Studying cultists has shown this trend. So I don’t know. One thing a lot of these regimes have in common is oil wealth. Oil wealth tends to drive any other industries out of a country, insulate power around the ruling class, and lead to dictatorships and similar. Definitely getting humanity to use non oil energy sources ASAP would help lower the pressures, I hope.

thdrdt 7y ago
What if you are under a regime without healthcare, loads of homeless people, extreme border patrol and police, and all you hear is that it's the land of opportunities where you can make it? The above might sound unfair but think about it. I believe there is propaganda in almost every country. And when oil is gone there will be something else. Probably Artificial Intelligence. Also check out a current trending item in HN about the US limiting the export of AI.
- Dinux 7y ago
  Yes, but to a broader perspective the western world has at least 'some' degree of freedom. The same cannot be said for many parts of the world including much of the middle east
  - thdrdt 7y ago
    In the western world 'debt' is also promoted as freedom. So it's all about your definition of what freedom is. My personal definition of freedom is 'free of debt'
    - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
      Freedom is basically capital, because the US is a plutocracy. You're either lucky enough to inherit economic freedom, or you can buy it - if you make enough money to be free of all debt and acquire substantial capital. The opportunities to do this are strictly limited and anyone starting cold is against very tough odds. And the activities that are rewarded are strongly biased towards rent-seeking and monopolistic market exploitation over less aggressively self-serving provision of goods and services. Obviously it's not impossible. But if you want true economic freedom, your personal and professional choices are - ironically - very tightly constrained.

missosoup 7y ago

China is harassing all of its coastal neighbours and trying to politically infiltrate just about every major country on the face of the earth. Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling. They don't really fit the same profile as Iran currently does. Feel free to walk me through the 'good guy' point of view of the people who invaded my home country, shot down a passenger plane, and got away with complete impunity. There are no good or bad guys. All the superpwers are dicks, that's how they got to being superpwers.

GorgeIo 7y ago
"...Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling..." Count how many times US has invaded other countries since 1949 and then come to your senses. I personally know a couple who came to my country from Ukraine because the Ukrainian fascists supported by the US were bombing their neighbourhood and killed their relatives. It was an orchestrated effort to spite Russia using Ukraine as an instrument. Who is loading the Eastern Europeran borders with Russia with arms and NATO personnel? Syria was saved by Russia as the jihadists were supported by yours trully US puppet. Please stop this nonsense. Use your brain.
- missosoup 7y ago
  This right here is a first-hand account of the '''good guy''' Russian angle. It nicely demonstrates the point I was making. Please don't engage with this individual in a flame war.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Kind of sad the text is gone for lack of reference. You nailed it on the nose.
    - wizzwizz4 7y ago
      It's not gone, just dead. You can enable viewing dead posts on your profile (but I really do not recommend it; they're dead for a reason).

emilsedgh 7y ago

Iran is still suffering heavily from that coup. That was the closest we ever were to a democracy. However, democracy is very fragile, specially at the beginning. And it was shattered and to this day, we never got as close. Tyrant regimes come and go and we still think what might've been. We could've easily been another France in middle east. Source: Iranian living in the U.S.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
I agree. It's really sad. Iran had/has so much potential.
- nexuist 7y ago
  In that regard, the current offensive action may as well be viewed as a breath of fresh air. If blood must be shed to end tyranny, perhaps it is a worthwhile gamble. The Iranian people gain nothing from allowing the current regime to grow. A US-Iran war would almost certainly result in a democratic Iran, with a connected and educated populace capable of maintaining it. I think one of the main flaws in Iraq and Afghanistan was simply assuming that you could establish democracy anywhere and then the citizens of the country would come together to form a functional democratic government. Iran's populace is much better equipped for democracy. They have already started begging for it [1]. I don't really believe the air strike was conducted with good intentions. But it may end up having a positive side effect for the Iranian people if the current government is ousted. I'll end this by posting something I wrote earlier on reddit: "I mean, it's really an interesting conundrum, when is war with anyone ever a good idea? And yet over the course of history there are several wars we have fought that are more or less universally accepted as being good ideas: the Revolutionary War, World War I, and World War II. So obviously, at some point, the calculation must be worth it. But I don't know if it is possible for any human being to perform that calculation with the mental capacity we are all given. What I do know is that the Iraq war absolutely ended the suffering of people under Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and the Afghanistan war somewhat ended the suffering of people under Taliban rule (the Taliban unfortunately still exists but is definitely not as strong as it used to be). What I don't know, and I don't think anyone can really know, is if the loss of those governments and introduction of our armed forces led to a general improvement on quality of life of Iraqi and Afghani citizens. I know the gut reaction is "obviously not" but neither of us are likely living in those countries at the moment, and so we really don't know how life has changed for them. The million dollar question is: will toppling Iran's government and ending the suffering of its citizenry under it be a net benefit for its people, or is the status quo shielding them from an even worse fate? How can you really know?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019-20_Iranian_protests

lowdose 7y ago

I completely agree with you. I do think China is becoming more and more the example people are looking at how to make progress. Politics aside the growth in wealth and it's distribution over the last 30 years have been magic. Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy". I'm not under such a opinion but I find it increasingly hard to have a normal conversation about the USA and it's form of the human experiment without hitting a wall of generalised criticism that ends up in stalemate. Considering what we know what the CIA has done in the past. What kind of shadow government is functioning without consent of the people. The media institutions that suppose to keep that power in check never really informed the public on these developments. And on top the revelation of the catholic church being the biggest pedofile network that hitted the American society probably a lot harder than Europe because of stronger religious sentiments. All things combined for me it is not strange an anti establishment campaign won the presidency. Friends, family, people that have watched movies like the Irishman, Spotlight, the Good Shepherd are not really open to adjust their point of view on the States. Iran, China and Russia are however topics where nuanced opinion still is expressed.

AtlasLion 7y ago
"Most people living outside the USA are very negative about the United States because this president is a very "bad guy"" That's a very simplistic view of people outside the USA. Unlike US news that do no mention US proxy wars, veto votes and the like, other countries are well aware of US foreign policy and the terror it brings with it, be it in south America, Africa, the middle east or elsewhere.
- lowdose 7y ago
  Off course my opinion is based on a very selective draw during traveling to many countries. However the conversation has been trending more and more negative on the United States topic and it's form of "democracy". Noam Chomsky has written elaborate on corporatism and i think this POTUS function as an amplifier. I argue people are not bad informed but do generalize bad malpractice elements of the USA to all Americans. The election of this president and everything that followed is seen as evidence by many people the USA is crazy. And my understanding of the people living in the USA is they are still viewing bad malpractice as unintended consequence of the capitalism experiment initiated by the other politic parties behavior on either side of the coin. In contrast Putin is not Russia and Xi is not China.

entropyneur 7y ago

I'm not sure what kind mental leap would take one from "USA has terrible foreign policy" to "authoritarianism is the way to go for my country". It just doesn't seem to be plausible. The fun thing about authoritarianism though is that you don't really have to want it to end up under it.

ljw1001 7y ago
I'm not sure that's the argument people are making. For Iran, it was US overthrew our fledgling democracy and replaced him with a tyrant, whose oppression led to a(n Islamic) revolution, which just gave us a different kind of tyrant. Part of the issue we see in the Middle East, IMO, is that Islamists got the upper hand because they were the only organizations that were tolerated under the oppressive regimes that existed in so many places (Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Gulf states, Egypt,...).
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Regarding Iran, the Shah was a stooge and Western influence was seen as too strong. We often see pictures of women in miniskirts in Tehran during the 70s like if that was a sign of a great time... except that the Iranian population was more conservative and did not see that as a positive. The Islamists were both nationalists and traditionalists and got the upper hand because of that. Iran is a great and old culture and civilisation and, like perhaps China, they won't let foreigners take over and dictate the rules. Unfortunately, it looks like the USA still don't get that.

hyko 7y ago

Most western people are against the authoritarian regimes governing the aforementioned countries, for the obvious reason that they are an abomination to people who believe in human flourishing. The countries themselves are not capable of being good or bad, as they exist only in the human imagination.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

fit2rule 7y ago

The People of America may not want war. But the people of USA™, Inc. do. Which one are you? >Leaders are to blame but most of the people in this world are just living their life. The people get the leaders they deserve. This is because people are the ultimate power - convince enough people to go along with you overtly: you're a dictator. Covertly: you're a 1% of 1%'er, who knows the right strings to pull in the world. In the end, neither of these conditions can occur unless the people, in their enthusiasm or in their apathy, allow it.

twobat 7y ago
> The people get the leaders they deserve. No, they don't. There's no voting system that allows everyone to be represented.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  Yes, they do. Nobody is ruled without their own complicity.

haecceity 7y ago

Unfortunately most people cannot see things from another’s point of view.

wslh 7y ago

The world is not black and white but I would say that democracy, with all its faults, offers more instruments for a good change and sadly people are not educated to play a role.

alamaslah 7y ago

No, western people do not care about Iran and China, providing they are not actively making their lives worse. And vice versa. I think the attitude you are expecting people to have is insulting both ways. You are denying the Iranians and Chinese have any agency...Do you really think they or their Goverments spend all their time just reacting? Ps. If you say to someone in the west "What do you think of those re-education camps?" they will reply "Sounds like a university". Sadly, they are not completely wrong.

aasasd 7y ago

> the USA is the greatest country in the world > and democracy is the way to go Democracy = USA? Hmmm, didn't know that.

Youden 7y ago

> Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'. As a resident of Europe, I don't think that's accurate. I think there are negative views of these countries in the west but I think the negativity is _much_ stronger in the US than the rest of the west. Personally I find the US itself to be a much bigger problem than any of these countries and it seems I'm definitely not alone [0]. [0]: https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/ https://fullfact.org/news/america-world-peace/

Yizahi 7y ago
Oh, right, thank you for opening our collective eyes. I didn't know that it is USA who invaded my country, annexed territories as big as whole Belgium and killed tens of thousands soldiers and civilians only in recent years. I was too negative to the poor innocent Russia while all the time I should have known that it was USA all along. The BIGGER problem indeed.
- Retric 7y ago
  You might be directly impacted, but in terms of most countries invaded or people killed over the last say 100 years I think the US is rather ahead. Making them a bigger problem for the world even if Russia is a bigger problem for you. Personally as an American I kind of like being part of the ‘evil’ empire. But, I can definitely understand why others might take issue with our actions.
  - Yizahi 7y ago
    USA killed more people that Russia/USSR over last 100 years? USA annexed more territories than Russia/USSR over last 100 years? Please tell me you are kidding. China is indisputable leader in killing civilians EVER in human history and also quite happy to annex nearby territories. Iran - about the same. If you want to glorify objectively worse entities just for the sake of hating on USA (justified or not) - feel free to do so, I have never seem USA haters to change their opinions.

Yizahi 7y ago

We can and should discuss reasons which led to current state of the world but there is nothing ambiguous about Iran, China and Russia being bad guys today. No need to put it in quotes. They are indiscriminately killing people in tens of thousands, annexing neighbor territories and in general maintain inhuman totalitarian regimes. And this happens today.

forgetfulusr 7y ago
and you can say the same about the US. You don't have to repeat it all over the thread. we should stop looking at everything as black and white. Lets discuss reason why it ia in the current state. Would Iran be in this position today if we hadn't tried to install our democracy to them back in the 50s?
- iknowalot 7y ago
  Stealing oil from the Iranian people was/is the priority. Just like stealing lithium from the Bolivian people is.
- Yizahi 7y ago
  First - I never said that USA is good or did nothing bad. Second - what I was saying is exactly what you have said - world is not black and white, there is lots of grades in between. And in such fine grained world USA is higher (whiter) than Russia, China and Iran, and by a lot. Now to your direct question - USA did a lot of bad stuff and nobody denies it, they did bad stuff in 20th century and in 21st. But again - in comparison China, Russia and Iran are much worse. We can't deny punishment for a killer because of bad childhood, at best we can find killer's offender and punish him too accordingly. Same with USA - they should be held accountable, but only for their own actions, same as other countries.

tuesday20 7y ago

There is this tedX talk. I forgot the name. Someone made an app that connects people with polar opposite views. They meet in person and talk. Many times, they Gain respect for other person’s view point, and many people changed their opinion too. We all live in our bubbles, me included. If we took 5 mins to look from opposite side, we’d have less conflicts. The internet was supposed to bring people together. Instead we are all in some echo chamber or the other. Companies like Facebook profit handsomely from it too

m-p-3 7y ago

> try to understand their point of view Everything would be better in this world if we did.

gohi77 7y ago

This isn’t a perfect observation but 25% of Beverly Hills is Persian. Of course, these were a lot of wealthy families who left Iran in the 70s and then helped build one of the best cities in the United States. With a fairly high percentage of Orthodox people. Is it the systems involved, the religions, the wealth applied to a free society or just luck that created these two outcomes?

tiatia 7y ago

"Most western people are very negative about countries like Iran, China and Russia because they are the 'bad guys'." All these countries are not really a problem. Yet, the US has the most corrupt, the most rotten country in the world, Saudi Arabia, as an ally.

unapologetic 7y ago

> Whould you think the USA is the greatest country in the world and democracy is the way to go? Why would anyone think that? It's an absurd question frankly. You don't need to feel that way to be an ally of the US. Is there a single US ally that thinks that at this point? The US is deeply flawed country, even more than most. The difference is that Iranians have every reason to hate the US.