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> why are we using these devices designed to be immediately thrown away? I mean, the answer is pretty easy: people have a strong preference for options that he

> why are we using these devices designed to be immediately thrown away? I mean, the answer is pretty easy: people have a strong preference for options that help reduce their cognitive load. People prefer restaurants that provide take out containers rather than require they bring Tupperware. People prefer grocery stores that provide bags rather than require they bring their own. This isn't true of everyone - conscientiousness is normally distributed - but it is true for most people most of the time.

dangus 7y ago
That’s something I’m trying to get at, the wealthy and/or upper middle class have the luxury of having time for that cognitive load of certain “conscientious” activities like that. The upper middle class and wealthy who already harm the environment more by flying frequently or driving a brand new 25MPG Audi instead of a 40MPG 10 year old Nissan Versa aren’t going to save the planet by going to a zero-waste fancy restaurant, and they might be eating at that restaurant to alleviate their own guilt because they know they’re using more than their fair share in the first place. For every one of them there’s 15 people working two jobs and eating at a fast food joint with disposable cutlery because there is no other option that fits their schedule or budget. But they might be less wasteful anyway because they don’t have the money to buy a few thousand pounds of jet fuel.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  > For every one of them there’s 15 people working two jobs and eating at a fast food joint with disposable cutlery because there is no other option that fits their schedule or budget Very US-centric though, people in most european countries eat at home.
  - phonypc 7y ago
    People in the US eat at home too. Do you mean to suggest Europeans eat at home more often? I could believe there's a small difference, but although Europe might not be covered in fast food chains at the same rate as the US, I'd guess smaller eateries more than make up for that.
    - nationsobviou 7y ago
      I, and everyone I know from my European cultural background, cook basically every day. OTOH I have some US friends who I am not even sure know how to cook
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        I, and nearly everyone I know here in the US, also cooks pretty much every day.
        nationsobviou 7y ago
        This both enlightens and pleases me :-)
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > Very US-centric though, people in most european countries eat at home. I'm in the US, and 95% of the time, I cook my own food and eat it at home. So does nearly everyone I know.
- NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
  > driving a brand new 25MPG Audi instead of a 40MPG 10 year old Nissan Versa I know this is not your substantive point but ... The extent to which CAFE standards have improved mileage even over the past 10 years should not be ignored, and you should check your assumptions about fuel economy. e.g. 2020 Audi A4 gets basically the same combined mileage as the 2010 Nissan Versa. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=29866&id=42220 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=29866&id=4...
narag 7y ago
That seems a cultural thing. In Spain disposable cutlery would be unthinkable except for McDonalds. Any menu-of-the-day cheap blue-collar bar will have real cutlery and fabric.
- shantly 7y ago
  It’s mostly for fast food and take-out places in the US, too.
Pigo 7y ago
I find a lot of the bags and boxes I'm forced to use annoying. I buy one thing at the pharmacy and they print out a receipt that is sometimes 8 feet long (dead serious) and put it all in a bag that I would immediately throw away. I tell them I don't need the bag, but I'm still stuck with these ridiculous receipts full of coupons I don't care about. Purely from an annoyance standpoint, this bothers me a great deal. I know the company/cashiers assume it's expected of them, but to me it's like the gallon sized drinks at fast food chains. It aggravates me that anyone thinks it's necessary. The Amazon packing and boxing situation is a whole other level of annoying.
glenneroo 7y ago
> People prefer grocery stores that provide bags rather than require they bring their own. Definitely cultural, AFAIK most Europeans brings their own bags for groceries and it's just automatic. Otherwise you have to buy a new bag at check-out.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  That's because they stopped giving them for free: ~10 years ago we still had plastic bags everywhere in France. Make people pay for their waste, usually it helps reducing them.
beerandt 7y ago
At the risk of... whatever: Disposable items (properly disposed of, ie landfilled) can be, and often are, more environmentally friendly than reusable items. Especially if you look at actual real life use, as opposed to projected or design use. Look at a UK LCA of shopping bags: A cotton tote needs to be reused ~173 times without being washed to break even with the efficiency of a single use HDPE bag. (Edit: other alternatives, like LDPE, paper or woven plastic, are also listed as low as multiplier of 2x vs HDPE. I didn't intend to mislead.) If you're not doing a whole load of dishes, it can be more efficient to use plastic or paper plates for a meal, and trash them. The cost of just washing something can be relatively and unreasonably high, environmentally speaking. The green movement has been over reliant on emotional programming (reuse = always good, plastic = always bad, etc) and needs to invest more in actual education. Landfills have gotten an especially unearned negative connotation. Hopefully the new generation of college graduates are getting proper training in conducting proper Life Cycle Analysis'. Not saying reuse is always bad or that we shouldn't be analysing these things, just that they need analysis, and not a collective gut reaction. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...
- nradov 7y ago
  Banning single use plastic bags is more about reducing litter and water contamination than about energy efficiency. Lightweight plastic bags are particularly bad because the wind blows them everywhere and they often end up in oceans or rivers. This causes serious harm to aquatic environments.
  - beerandt 7y ago
    Yes, and that's fine, but it's also somewhat a different problem. One that is better solved with a deposit scheme, redesign, or some other method than tax and ban. (Edit: or the obvious- using biodegradable additives in HDPE at a marginal cost.) Make them twice as thick. Melt a weight into the seam of each one to prevent flying and floating. You'd still be a magnitude ahead of the alternatives. There are alternatives besides banning. They have their problems, but people don't realize what a damn miracle of engineering HDPE bags are. And other disposable paper and plastic items, to a lesser extent.

dangus 7y ago

That’s something I’m trying to get at, the wealthy and/or upper middle class have the luxury of having time for that cognitive load of certain “conscientious” activities like that. The upper middle class and wealthy who already harm the environment more by flying frequently or driving a brand new 25MPG Audi instead of a 40MPG 10 year old Nissan Versa aren’t going to save the planet by going to a zero-waste fancy restaurant, and they might be eating at that restaurant to alleviate their own guilt because they know they’re using more than their fair share in the first place. For every one of them there’s 15 people working two jobs and eating at a fast food joint with disposable cutlery because there is no other option that fits their schedule or budget. But they might be less wasteful anyway because they don’t have the money to buy a few thousand pounds of jet fuel.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> For every one of them there’s 15 people working two jobs and eating at a fast food joint with disposable cutlery because there is no other option that fits their schedule or budget Very US-centric though, people in most european countries eat at home.
- phonypc 7y ago
  People in the US eat at home too. Do you mean to suggest Europeans eat at home more often? I could believe there's a small difference, but although Europe might not be covered in fast food chains at the same rate as the US, I'd guess smaller eateries more than make up for that.
  - nationsobviou 7y ago
    I, and everyone I know from my European cultural background, cook basically every day. OTOH I have some US friends who I am not even sure know how to cook
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      I, and nearly everyone I know here in the US, also cooks pretty much every day.
      - nationsobviou 7y ago
        This both enlightens and pleases me :-)
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > Very US-centric though, people in most european countries eat at home. I'm in the US, and 95% of the time, I cook my own food and eat it at home. So does nearly everyone I know.
NovemberWhiskey 7y ago
> driving a brand new 25MPG Audi instead of a 40MPG 10 year old Nissan Versa I know this is not your substantive point but ... The extent to which CAFE standards have improved mileage even over the past 10 years should not be ignored, and you should check your assumptions about fuel economy. e.g. 2020 Audi A4 gets basically the same combined mileage as the 2010 Nissan Versa. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=29866&id=42220 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=29866&id=4...

narag 7y ago

That seems a cultural thing. In Spain disposable cutlery would be unthinkable except for McDonalds. Any menu-of-the-day cheap blue-collar bar will have real cutlery and fabric.

shantly 7y ago
It’s mostly for fast food and take-out places in the US, too.

Pigo 7y ago

I find a lot of the bags and boxes I'm forced to use annoying. I buy one thing at the pharmacy and they print out a receipt that is sometimes 8 feet long (dead serious) and put it all in a bag that I would immediately throw away. I tell them I don't need the bag, but I'm still stuck with these ridiculous receipts full of coupons I don't care about. Purely from an annoyance standpoint, this bothers me a great deal. I know the company/cashiers assume it's expected of them, but to me it's like the gallon sized drinks at fast food chains. It aggravates me that anyone thinks it's necessary. The Amazon packing and boxing situation is a whole other level of annoying.

glenneroo 7y ago

> People prefer grocery stores that provide bags rather than require they bring their own. Definitely cultural, AFAIK most Europeans brings their own bags for groceries and it's just automatic. Otherwise you have to buy a new bag at check-out.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago
That's because they stopped giving them for free: ~10 years ago we still had plastic bags everywhere in France. Make people pay for their waste, usually it helps reducing them.

beerandt 7y ago

At the risk of... whatever: Disposable items (properly disposed of, ie landfilled) can be, and often are, more environmentally friendly than reusable items. Especially if you look at actual real life use, as opposed to projected or design use. Look at a UK LCA of shopping bags: A cotton tote needs to be reused ~173 times without being washed to break even with the efficiency of a single use HDPE bag. (Edit: other alternatives, like LDPE, paper or woven plastic, are also listed as low as multiplier of 2x vs HDPE. I didn't intend to mislead.) If you're not doing a whole load of dishes, it can be more efficient to use plastic or paper plates for a meal, and trash them. The cost of just washing something can be relatively and unreasonably high, environmentally speaking. The green movement has been over reliant on emotional programming (reuse = always good, plastic = always bad, etc) and needs to invest more in actual education. Landfills have gotten an especially unearned negative connotation. Hopefully the new generation of college graduates are getting proper training in conducting proper Life Cycle Analysis'. Not saying reuse is always bad or that we shouldn't be analysing these things, just that they need analysis, and not a collective gut reaction. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/291023/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

nradov 7y ago
Banning single use plastic bags is more about reducing litter and water contamination than about energy efficiency. Lightweight plastic bags are particularly bad because the wind blows them everywhere and they often end up in oceans or rivers. This causes serious harm to aquatic environments.
- beerandt 7y ago
  Yes, and that's fine, but it's also somewhat a different problem. One that is better solved with a deposit scheme, redesign, or some other method than tax and ban. (Edit: or the obvious- using biodegradable additives in HDPE at a marginal cost.) Make them twice as thick. Melt a weight into the seam of each one to prevent flying and floating. You'd still be a magnitude ahead of the alternatives. There are alternatives besides banning. They have their problems, but people don't realize what a damn miracle of engineering HDPE bags are. And other disposable paper and plastic items, to a lesser extent.