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If you already have an inclination to travel to Mongolia, this makes for an interesting "last straw" to justify going. I like the relative desolation of the Ame

If you already have an inclination to travel to Mongolia, this makes for an interesting "last straw" to justify going. I like the relative desolation of the American Midwest, in part because of the no-tech/no-connectivity of large swaths; any excuse to go there is appreciated. Once that hurdle is cleared, going to such an extreme for disconnecting helps hammer home the point to the kid: cellular connectivity isn't just a few feet of separation from phone, or a few miles outside cell service, it's far enough that disconnection is absolute & profound - you can drive (not just walk) for days and still not get a connection. The real horror is a society so deeply dependent on something they use so intimately yet so completely fail to understand. Getting kids "back to the Earth" is very important, full & complete disconnect from "technology" so they can grasp their own ability to live & thrive without it. Clarke: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"; we're there, and while the benefits are good, the psychological dependency & mystery isn't. Go somewhere distant from technology, forage/hunt food, make a meal over an open fire, and sleep under the stars - so vital for a child's psychological well-being. [ETA: "Midwest" referring to roughly the boundary between central plains and Rocky Mountains.]

chapium 7y ago
> American Midwest, in part because of the no-tech/no-connectivity of large swaths Wait, what? When is the last time you went to the midwest!?
- ctdonath 7y ago
  Last summer, family vacation. Tetons-Yellowstone-Glacier-Badlands region in particular, scenic backroads also. Was surprised at how extensive coverage (down to 3G) was, but there were large areas of zero connectivity as well. That's overlooking lack of wifi hotspots lest my cell tethering data cap run out. Kids were subject to >week of no TV/data/games, having no internet and no power (solar-gathered electricity used only for lighting & mapping). From that perspective, methinks Starlink.com will contribute to significant population shifts, making such low/no-connectivity areas viable to those dependent on internet connectivity. I'd move to that region quick were data fast & reliable. [ETA: "Midwest" as in "west side of mid" a la broad boundary of central plains and Rocky Mountains.]
  - andymcsherry 7y ago
    Wyoming and Montana are definitely not in the Midwest, and I’d even argue that the Western South Dakota where the Badlands are should be considered the Mountain West as well. The majority of the Midwest is far more populated than this region
  - s0rce 7y ago
    I wouldn't really consider the Tetons in the Midwest, they are part of the Rocky mountains. Same with Glacier. This map seems to capture how I think of the larger regions in the USA https://www.touropia.com/regions-of-the-united-states/ https://www.touropia.com/regions-of-the-united-states/ Probably would divide Socal from Norcal. Also, there is a distinct inter-mountain west between the Rockies and the Sierra/Cascades. Utah isn't really in the Southwest and Eastern WA/OR isn't really in the PNW but close enough.
  - chapium 7y ago
    Oh that makes sense then. That's not considered the midwest. (far from it) I had a similar experience when visiting this region. Very open. Poor signal, sometimes not even radio.
  - opencl 7y ago
    Those places have no cell service because nobody lives there, not the other way around. The number of people who would gladly live in the middle of nowhere if only there was internet available is miniscule and basically consists entirely of people who do remote work (because there are no jobs in the middle of nowhere).
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    The Midwest is Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, maybe Minnesota...anything in the mountain time zone is not the Midwest, it is often called the inter mountain west, and covers anything from inland California though Colorado.
  - orthoxerox 7y ago
    That's not what most people call Midwest. Great Lakes and Great Plains is what most people think of, not the Rockies.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  I had a similar knee-jerk reaction, but the midwest covers a huge region and there are still isolated undeveloped parts.
SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
Where do you draw the line on technology? Are you hunting and foraging with your own hand made weapons? Is the tent you sleep in composed of furs? Technology is all around us, no matter how far you move or hide, and it seems arbitrary to draw the line at "cell phone bad", then argue that you need to get kids to go "back to the Earth". That's idealistic romanticism, and unless you're running around in leather skins with a wooden bow and hand woven string, it's all pretending that one can survive without the trappings of modern life.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Where do you draw the line on technology? Are you hunting and foraging with your own hand made weapons? Is the tent you sleep in composed of furs? Technology is all around us, no matter how far you move or hide, and it seems arbitrary to draw the line at "cell phone bad", then argue that you need to get kids to go "back to the Earth" Just because things aren't black or white and exactly measurable, there doesn't mean we can't make distinctions and decide qualitatively, or that if someone accepts technology X% then they need to accept it 100% and bend over backwards to whatever tech is popular... The "slippery slope" argument than if you forego cell phone addiction you must also "hunt and foraging with your own hand made weapons" is also bad -- as if every new invention is an absolute must have, and people shouldn't live without it, or set their own criteria, lest they forego civilization entirely. >That's idealistic romanticism, and unless you're running around in leather skins with a wooden bow and hand woven string, it's all pretending that one can survive without the trappings of modern life. We survived for millennia without the "trappings of modern life", and we survived without commonly available cellphones even up to 1995 or so, and smartphones up to 1998 or so, so it's not like we absolutely must have them or are savages. Not having a smartphone at all or going on a mobile-diet is actually a thing in hacker circles, which are far from savages... There are millions of people who do without this or other trappings by choice (not to mention billions by lack of money), who still do just fine. In fact a couple of the richest people (ship owners level rich) I know use some crappy 20-year old style cellphone (not a smartphone) and avoid being arbitrarily reachable by others. It's not some luxury those "trappings of modern life" often it's the opposite: the passtime of slaves and necessary tools of working stiff to be easily found.
Miraste 7y ago
There's nowhere in the continental US you can drive for days and not get a cell signal.

chapium 7y ago

> American Midwest, in part because of the no-tech/no-connectivity of large swaths Wait, what? When is the last time you went to the midwest!?

ctdonath 7y ago
Last summer, family vacation. Tetons-Yellowstone-Glacier-Badlands region in particular, scenic backroads also. Was surprised at how extensive coverage (down to 3G) was, but there were large areas of zero connectivity as well. That's overlooking lack of wifi hotspots lest my cell tethering data cap run out. Kids were subject to >week of no TV/data/games, having no internet and no power (solar-gathered electricity used only for lighting & mapping). From that perspective, methinks Starlink.com will contribute to significant population shifts, making such low/no-connectivity areas viable to those dependent on internet connectivity. I'd move to that region quick were data fast & reliable. [ETA: "Midwest" as in "west side of mid" a la broad boundary of central plains and Rocky Mountains.]
- andymcsherry 7y ago
  Wyoming and Montana are definitely not in the Midwest, and I’d even argue that the Western South Dakota where the Badlands are should be considered the Mountain West as well. The majority of the Midwest is far more populated than this region
- s0rce 7y ago
  I wouldn't really consider the Tetons in the Midwest, they are part of the Rocky mountains. Same with Glacier. This map seems to capture how I think of the larger regions in the USA https://www.touropia.com/regions-of-the-united-states/ https://www.touropia.com/regions-of-the-united-states/ Probably would divide Socal from Norcal. Also, there is a distinct inter-mountain west between the Rockies and the Sierra/Cascades. Utah isn't really in the Southwest and Eastern WA/OR isn't really in the PNW but close enough.
- chapium 7y ago
  Oh that makes sense then. That's not considered the midwest. (far from it) I had a similar experience when visiting this region. Very open. Poor signal, sometimes not even radio.
- opencl 7y ago
  Those places have no cell service because nobody lives there, not the other way around. The number of people who would gladly live in the middle of nowhere if only there was internet available is miniscule and basically consists entirely of people who do remote work (because there are no jobs in the middle of nowhere).
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  The Midwest is Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, maybe Minnesota...anything in the mountain time zone is not the Midwest, it is often called the inter mountain west, and covers anything from inland California though Colorado.
- orthoxerox 7y ago
  That's not what most people call Midwest. Great Lakes and Great Plains is what most people think of, not the Rockies.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
newnewpdro 7y ago
I had a similar knee-jerk reaction, but the midwest covers a huge region and there are still isolated undeveloped parts.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

Where do you draw the line on technology? Are you hunting and foraging with your own hand made weapons? Is the tent you sleep in composed of furs? Technology is all around us, no matter how far you move or hide, and it seems arbitrary to draw the line at "cell phone bad", then argue that you need to get kids to go "back to the Earth". That's idealistic romanticism, and unless you're running around in leather skins with a wooden bow and hand woven string, it's all pretending that one can survive without the trappings of modern life.

coldtea 7y ago
>Where do you draw the line on technology? Are you hunting and foraging with your own hand made weapons? Is the tent you sleep in composed of furs? Technology is all around us, no matter how far you move or hide, and it seems arbitrary to draw the line at "cell phone bad", then argue that you need to get kids to go "back to the Earth" Just because things aren't black or white and exactly measurable, there doesn't mean we can't make distinctions and decide qualitatively, or that if someone accepts technology X% then they need to accept it 100% and bend over backwards to whatever tech is popular... The "slippery slope" argument than if you forego cell phone addiction you must also "hunt and foraging with your own hand made weapons" is also bad -- as if every new invention is an absolute must have, and people shouldn't live without it, or set their own criteria, lest they forego civilization entirely. >That's idealistic romanticism, and unless you're running around in leather skins with a wooden bow and hand woven string, it's all pretending that one can survive without the trappings of modern life. We survived for millennia without the "trappings of modern life", and we survived without commonly available cellphones even up to 1995 or so, and smartphones up to 1998 or so, so it's not like we absolutely must have them or are savages. Not having a smartphone at all or going on a mobile-diet is actually a thing in hacker circles, which are far from savages... There are millions of people who do without this or other trappings by choice (not to mention billions by lack of money), who still do just fine. In fact a couple of the richest people (ship owners level rich) I know use some crappy 20-year old style cellphone (not a smartphone) and avoid being arbitrarily reachable by others. It's not some luxury those "trappings of modern life" often it's the opposite: the passtime of slaves and necessary tools of working stiff to be easily found.

Miraste 7y ago

There's nowhere in the continental US you can drive for days and not get a cell signal.