20 ms·

” At a different all-hands meeting, the entire policy team was separated into various rooms and told to participate in a “diversity exercise” that placed me in

” At a different all-hands meeting, the entire policy team was separated into various rooms and told to participate in a “diversity exercise” that placed me in a group labeled “homos” while participants shouted out stereotypes such as “effeminate” and “promiscuous.” Colleagues of color were forced to join groups called “Asians” and “Brown people” in other rooms nearby.” Wow this literally sounds like an episode of The Office (S1 E2) Definitely not the most damning thing in this article but the one that really jumped out for me. Can’t even wrap my mind around why someone thought this would be a good idea

iliekcomputers 7y ago
In this day and age, who thinks that "homos" is a good label to use? And this is at Google, holy crap. How does a place that I'd expect to be filled to the brim with forward thinking techies even hire a person who thought this was a good idea?
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Also, how would they know who to put in the "homo room?" How were people assigned? Did a senior executive walk up and down the hall, looking in offices, and going "gay, black, gay, gay, asian..." Something has to have been left out of the story, this is way too crazy to ever happen.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    I mean, the article author is openly partnered and in a same-sex marriage... I'd assume members of the policy group he leads know he's gay.
    - Buge 7y ago
      That doesn't tell us how he was assigned to that group. It might have been a dice roll. Or maybe he chose to be in that group.
      - drewbug01 7y ago
        To some extent... it doesn’t matter. I’m gay: and if you randomly assigned me to a group that has to listen to gay stereotypes, it would still be wrong. Even though the method of assignment is technically okay. Why it’s wrong is debatable. But at least for me it’d be wrong because honestly... that would drag up a lot of psychological trauma for me. Like “I need to take some time off work” bad. Even if you can predict who that will happen to.. and you try to account for it.. there is no margin of error here that’s acceptable, especially when the material in question could be completed another way. So yeah. This is a really, really bad look for the Googs here. :(
        Buge 7y ago
        Yeah, I agree. I think it would disturb a lot of people, including me.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    The intent was probably to expose people to prejudices they don't usually experience with their cis/white/male/wealthy selves. In which case one would have wanted to have those people roleplay as minority identities. The writeup's phrasing is definitely weird, if accurate. Not sure why people of color would need to be exposed to what it's like to be treated as "brown people"? Then again... given the logic behind most HR training, I'd be unsurprised if someone misunderstood diversity training guidelines and instead tried to put people in "their groups." facepalm
    - Izkata 7y ago
      "People of color" is the modern "black" (African heritage), and excludes dark skin colors from other locales. "Brown people", weird as it sounds as a phrase, is broader and includes dark-skinned groups like Middle-Eastern, but I think arbitrarily excludes Asian.
      - ethbro 7y ago
        Really? I'm not sure that narrow of a definition is the commonly used one. Wikipedia has it as even broader than my use: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color I've generally heard it as either "non-white", "non-white, with emphasis on 'brown' skin tones", or "non-white and not covered by a more specific group" in common real world use, depending on the context.
  - emmelaich 7y ago
    My suspicion is that the exercise is to allocate people randomly to these groups. Not based on their actual ethnicity / inclinations. This article doesn't actually contradict that, since random selection will put some in their "appropriate" category. So, either that, or the person conducting the exercise totally misunderstood it.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  > How does a place that I'd expect to be filled to the brim with forward thinking techies even hire a person who thought this was a good idea? If you spend 10 seconds on Blind you'll find the most out of touch thought processes with regard to race, religion and sexuality from employees at big Silicon Valley tech companies. Very different from the general population, not forward thinking.
  - shantly 7y ago
    > Very different from the general population, not forward thinking. IDK about SV tech companies, but I don't think it's accurate to characterize the general population as "forward thinking" on those issues.
    - rolltiide 7y ago
      My point should have been clear that its less forward thinking than the general population And you could extrapolate that I’m also referring to the bay area
      - shantly 7y ago
        Ah, that the companies in SV are less forward thinking than the population of, specifically, SV. That could be.
      - username90 7y ago
        Every unmoderated forum looks roughly like Blind or worse, so you can't draw any conclusions from it except that such people exists in tech as well.
at_a_remove 7y ago
It's about "identity." For someone like me, the concept consists of bits like favorite ice cream flavor, what kinds of pets does someone like, how they respond to various holidays, how they might feel at a party with unfamiliar people, how they felt the first time they struck an animal while driving, when and what kinds of tips do they leave when nobody is looking ... character is who you are in the dark, and I am interested in the little things that distinguish people from one another. For others, identity has been deconstructed into a series of theoretically independent (believe it or else) variables where each option is totally okay. Gender, sexual orientation, racial or ethnic background, physical disabilities, mental "challenges," and so on, along the axes of oppression. That's how people divide out for that bunch of folks and apparently, you had better play along. The "I know you don't like to ask questions" bit is bleakly ironic.
- gumby 7y ago
  addressing your specific point (and note: ignoring the submitted article): I think everyone wants to think of themselves the way you want to define identity. It's a great model and I think of myself that way too. However not everyone has the opportunity to be thought of that way by others. When you say "axis of oppression" well, that's a loaded term for an odious situation, but that odious situation really exists. Who you may choose to sleep with is none of my business unless 1 - one of us wants to go out with the other or 2 - you are a friend/colleague and get married or have some other life event for which I can be glad for you. That's not how the world actually works, so calligraphies attention to it helps those of us who are not (say) gay appreciate the difficulty others have and try not to make things worse (at least that's the hope). The existence of oppression doesn't make you some sort of oppressor, but don't you want to have sympathy for your fellow humans? We are all at a disadvantage some of the time. I"ve literally been on both sides: I was born in a country where I was legally of the wrong hereditary background. When I came to the US I was magically received as "a white guy". That's great: I get to define myself by ice cream preferences etc and I see nothing wrong with that. I notice I get a pass for certain screw ups and am taken more seriously than, say, my far more educated girlfriend. Do I wring my hands over it? Certainly not! But I do recognise that not everyone gets the same chance.
whack 7y ago
I did some googling on this and this exercise is recommended by organizations such as University of Houston's "Center for Diversity and Inclusion". More details given below. We can have a fun discussion on whether such activities are constructive. But it seems very unfair to paint Google as a prejudiced organization for carrying out a diversity exercise that is explicitly recommended by organizations who specialize in this field. The fact that this exercise was cherry-picked and presented without context, makes me wonder what else in the article is being painted in an unfair light. https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/ https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/pdf/COR101.pdf https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... "Come up with list of groups that we have stereotypes about (AfricanAmerican, gays/lesbians, disabled people, athletes, women, etc). You can tailor this to the class. 2. Divide the class into small groups and give each group one of the above categories. 3. On big paper, let the groups generate all the stereotypes they can think of for that group (encourage them to be honest, say what they hear about these groups). Then discuss (and list) the source of that stereotype, how it's reinforced, and the effect it has" 4. Let each group put up their paper and read their stereotypes and the other categories to the group. 5. End with a large group discussion of what they can do to end stereotyping (i.e. educate themselves, take courses, get to know members of the group, join an organization, etc)."
- staticautomatic 7y ago
  "It seems very unfair to paint Google as a prejudiced organization for carrying out a diversity exercise that is explicitly recommended by academics who work in this field." Yeah and the guy who invented the lobotomy was awarded a Nobel Prize. Following the advice of academics is not a license to take off your ethics hat.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    License, no. ... but it makes for great legal cover.
    - 7y ago
chubot 7y ago
That's the first thing that popped into my mind too lol ... The one that ends with Steve Carrell and Mindy Kaling! I worked there and can't really imagine that happening at work, but the article rings pretty true in general so I don't have a reason to doubt it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cjcole 7y ago
This strikes me as standard (maybe poorly executed, possibly exaggerated in order to make a point) anti-stereotyping training. You can find many similar curricula or exercises online. The fact that the author frames this, without context, the way he did seems dishonest. https://ubwp.buffalo.edu/ccvillage/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2017/06/Experiencing-Diversity.pdf https://ubwp.buffalo.edu/ccvillage/wp-content/uploads/sites/... "The first member of each group should now display the card so that the small group can see the identifying word. During the next three minutes, the remaining group members are to take turns expressing stereotypical remarks about the category of persons named by that sign. The remarks do not necessarily need to be reflective of opinions held by the group members but may reflect things they may have heard or seen growing up in your family, at school, at work, or in the media." https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/pdf/diversity%20activities-resource-guide.pdf https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... https://www.skillsconverged.com/FreeTrainingMaterials/tabid/258/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1143/categoryId/117/Stereotypes-Exercise.aspx https://www.skillsconverged.com/FreeTrainingMaterials/tabid/... https://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Diversity-based%20Teambuilders%20and%20Icebreakers%20from%20Stonehill%20College.pdf https://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Diversity-ba... https://www.ouch-video.com/ouch_stereotypes.html https://www.ouch-video.com/ouch_stereotypes.html https://officevibe.com/blog/diversity-and-inclusion-activities https://officevibe.com/blog/diversity-and-inclusion-activiti... https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/international_projects/australian_educators/pedagogical_projects/bailey_activities1.pdf https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/international_proj... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHi1XA2pAZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHi1XA2pAZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbipufCPYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbipufCPYw
- defen 7y ago
  You can post as many examples as you want, there's still no way I'd participate in an activity like this.
  - cjcole 7y ago
    That might be wise. There seem to be an infinitude of ways this could go off the rails very badly.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> this literally sounds like an episode of The Office It sounds like something out of Kalanick's Uber or Neumann's WeWork.
jariel 7y ago
What's more interesting is how it got past legal. That episode is just asking for a huge legal and PR blowup.
lr4444lr 7y ago
Oh, they're even pushing this on kids now in some education circles: https://ruthking.net/racial-affinity-group-guidelines/ https://ruthking.net/racial-affinity-group-guidelines/ It was quite the scandal: https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8-school-teaches-white-students-theyre-born-racist/ https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8-school-teaches-white...

iliekcomputers 7y ago

In this day and age, who thinks that "homos" is a good label to use? And this is at Google, holy crap. How does a place that I'd expect to be filled to the brim with forward thinking techies even hire a person who thought this was a good idea?

whatshisface 7y ago
Also, how would they know who to put in the "homo room?" How were people assigned? Did a senior executive walk up and down the hall, looking in offices, and going "gay, black, gay, gay, asian..." Something has to have been left out of the story, this is way too crazy to ever happen.
- asdf21 7y ago
  I mean, the article author is openly partnered and in a same-sex marriage... I'd assume members of the policy group he leads know he's gay.
  - Buge 7y ago
    That doesn't tell us how he was assigned to that group. It might have been a dice roll. Or maybe he chose to be in that group.
    - drewbug01 7y ago
      To some extent... it doesn’t matter. I’m gay: and if you randomly assigned me to a group that has to listen to gay stereotypes, it would still be wrong. Even though the method of assignment is technically okay. Why it’s wrong is debatable. But at least for me it’d be wrong because honestly... that would drag up a lot of psychological trauma for me. Like “I need to take some time off work” bad. Even if you can predict who that will happen to.. and you try to account for it.. there is no margin of error here that’s acceptable, especially when the material in question could be completed another way. So yeah. This is a really, really bad look for the Googs here. :(
      - Buge 7y ago
        Yeah, I agree. I think it would disturb a lot of people, including me.
- ethbro 7y ago
  The intent was probably to expose people to prejudices they don't usually experience with their cis/white/male/wealthy selves. In which case one would have wanted to have those people roleplay as minority identities. The writeup's phrasing is definitely weird, if accurate. Not sure why people of color would need to be exposed to what it's like to be treated as "brown people"? Then again... given the logic behind most HR training, I'd be unsurprised if someone misunderstood diversity training guidelines and instead tried to put people in "their groups." facepalm
  - Izkata 7y ago
    "People of color" is the modern "black" (African heritage), and excludes dark skin colors from other locales. "Brown people", weird as it sounds as a phrase, is broader and includes dark-skinned groups like Middle-Eastern, but I think arbitrarily excludes Asian.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      Really? I'm not sure that narrow of a definition is the commonly used one. Wikipedia has it as even broader than my use: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color I've generally heard it as either "non-white", "non-white, with emphasis on 'brown' skin tones", or "non-white and not covered by a more specific group" in common real world use, depending on the context.
- emmelaich 7y ago
  My suspicion is that the exercise is to allocate people randomly to these groups. Not based on their actual ethnicity / inclinations. This article doesn't actually contradict that, since random selection will put some in their "appropriate" category. So, either that, or the person conducting the exercise totally misunderstood it.
rolltiide 7y ago
> How does a place that I'd expect to be filled to the brim with forward thinking techies even hire a person who thought this was a good idea? If you spend 10 seconds on Blind you'll find the most out of touch thought processes with regard to race, religion and sexuality from employees at big Silicon Valley tech companies. Very different from the general population, not forward thinking.
- shantly 7y ago
  > Very different from the general population, not forward thinking. IDK about SV tech companies, but I don't think it's accurate to characterize the general population as "forward thinking" on those issues.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    My point should have been clear that its less forward thinking than the general population And you could extrapolate that I’m also referring to the bay area
    - shantly 7y ago
      Ah, that the companies in SV are less forward thinking than the population of, specifically, SV. That could be.
    - username90 7y ago
      Every unmoderated forum looks roughly like Blind or worse, so you can't draw any conclusions from it except that such people exists in tech as well.

at_a_remove 7y ago

It's about "identity." For someone like me, the concept consists of bits like favorite ice cream flavor, what kinds of pets does someone like, how they respond to various holidays, how they might feel at a party with unfamiliar people, how they felt the first time they struck an animal while driving, when and what kinds of tips do they leave when nobody is looking ... character is who you are in the dark, and I am interested in the little things that distinguish people from one another. For others, identity has been deconstructed into a series of theoretically independent (believe it or else) variables where each option is totally okay. Gender, sexual orientation, racial or ethnic background, physical disabilities, mental "challenges," and so on, along the axes of oppression. That's how people divide out for that bunch of folks and apparently, you had better play along. The "I know you don't like to ask questions" bit is bleakly ironic.

gumby 7y ago
addressing your specific point (and note: ignoring the submitted article): I think everyone wants to think of themselves the way you want to define identity. It's a great model and I think of myself that way too. However not everyone has the opportunity to be thought of that way by others. When you say "axis of oppression" well, that's a loaded term for an odious situation, but that odious situation really exists. Who you may choose to sleep with is none of my business unless 1 - one of us wants to go out with the other or 2 - you are a friend/colleague and get married or have some other life event for which I can be glad for you. That's not how the world actually works, so calligraphies attention to it helps those of us who are not (say) gay appreciate the difficulty others have and try not to make things worse (at least that's the hope). The existence of oppression doesn't make you some sort of oppressor, but don't you want to have sympathy for your fellow humans? We are all at a disadvantage some of the time. I"ve literally been on both sides: I was born in a country where I was legally of the wrong hereditary background. When I came to the US I was magically received as "a white guy". That's great: I get to define myself by ice cream preferences etc and I see nothing wrong with that. I notice I get a pass for certain screw ups and am taken more seriously than, say, my far more educated girlfriend. Do I wring my hands over it? Certainly not! But I do recognise that not everyone gets the same chance.

whack 7y ago

I did some googling on this and this exercise is recommended by organizations such as University of Houston's "Center for Diversity and Inclusion". More details given below. We can have a fun discussion on whether such activities are constructive. But it seems very unfair to paint Google as a prejudiced organization for carrying out a diversity exercise that is explicitly recommended by organizations who specialize in this field. The fact that this exercise was cherry-picked and presented without context, makes me wonder what else in the article is being painted in an unfair light. https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/ https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/pdf/COR101.pdf https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... "Come up with list of groups that we have stereotypes about (AfricanAmerican, gays/lesbians, disabled people, athletes, women, etc). You can tailor this to the class. 2. Divide the class into small groups and give each group one of the above categories. 3. On big paper, let the groups generate all the stereotypes they can think of for that group (encourage them to be honest, say what they hear about these groups). Then discuss (and list) the source of that stereotype, how it's reinforced, and the effect it has" 4. Let each group put up their paper and read their stereotypes and the other categories to the group. 5. End with a large group discussion of what they can do to end stereotyping (i.e. educate themselves, take courses, get to know members of the group, join an organization, etc)."

staticautomatic 7y ago
"It seems very unfair to paint Google as a prejudiced organization for carrying out a diversity exercise that is explicitly recommended by academics who work in this field." Yeah and the guy who invented the lobotomy was awarded a Nobel Prize. Following the advice of academics is not a license to take off your ethics hat.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  License, no. ... but it makes for great legal cover.
  - 7y ago

chubot 7y ago

That's the first thing that popped into my mind too lol ... The one that ends with Steve Carrell and Mindy Kaling! I worked there and can't really imagine that happening at work, but the article rings pretty true in general so I don't have a reason to doubt it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cjcole 7y ago

This strikes me as standard (maybe poorly executed, possibly exaggerated in order to make a point) anti-stereotyping training. You can find many similar curricula or exercises online. The fact that the author frames this, without context, the way he did seems dishonest. https://ubwp.buffalo.edu/ccvillage/wp-content/uploads/sites/74/2017/06/Experiencing-Diversity.pdf https://ubwp.buffalo.edu/ccvillage/wp-content/uploads/sites/... "The first member of each group should now display the card so that the small group can see the identifying word. During the next three minutes, the remaining group members are to take turns expressing stereotypical remarks about the category of persons named by that sign. The remarks do not necessarily need to be reflective of opinions held by the group members but may reflect things they may have heard or seen growing up in your family, at school, at work, or in the media." https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activities/pdf/diversity%20activities-resource-guide.pdf https://www.uh.edu/cdi/diversity_education/resources/activit... https://www.skillsconverged.com/FreeTrainingMaterials/tabid/258/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1143/categoryId/117/Stereotypes-Exercise.aspx https://www.skillsconverged.com/FreeTrainingMaterials/tabid/... https://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Diversity-based%20Teambuilders%20and%20Icebreakers%20from%20Stonehill%20College.pdf https://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Diversity-ba... https://www.ouch-video.com/ouch_stereotypes.html https://www.ouch-video.com/ouch_stereotypes.html https://officevibe.com/blog/diversity-and-inclusion-activities https://officevibe.com/blog/diversity-and-inclusion-activiti... https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/international_projects/australian_educators/pedagogical_projects/bailey_activities1.pdf https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/education/international_proj... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHi1XA2pAZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHi1XA2pAZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbipufCPYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbipufCPYw

defen 7y ago
You can post as many examples as you want, there's still no way I'd participate in an activity like this.
- cjcole 7y ago
  That might be wise. There seem to be an infinitude of ways this could go off the rails very badly.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> this literally sounds like an episode of The Office It sounds like something out of Kalanick's Uber or Neumann's WeWork.

jariel 7y ago

What's more interesting is how it got past legal. That episode is just asking for a huge legal and PR blowup.

lr4444lr 7y ago

Oh, they're even pushing this on kids now in some education circles: https://ruthking.net/racial-affinity-group-guidelines/ https://ruthking.net/racial-affinity-group-guidelines/ It was quite the scandal: https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8-school-teaches-white-students-theyre-born-racist/ https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8-school-teaches-white...