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One interesting observation on Oslo is that, pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them, if there's no moving traffic close by. This is totally diff
by gokhan 7y ago
One interesting observation on Oslo is that, pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them, if there's no moving traffic close by. This is totally different from, for example, Copenhagen, Stockholm and places I visited in Germany. They're like Italians of the north.
That's probably why we felt at home on the streets during our stay there, as a family from Turkey. I would love to have that 0 deaths statistics here instead, though.
- INTPenis 7y agoThat's not different at all. Why would Norwegians be different from other humans? I can confirm that Swedes and danes do this too. And being of croatian descent I can confirm they do it there too. It's not a cultural thing, it's a human thing to be impatient. If anything it speaks of the flow of traffic. Here in Sweden you can often safely cross the street because the entire length of the street has lights that work in a pattern. So there are long gaps in traffic due to lights further up/downstream on the street.
- hycaria 7y agoIve been shouted at in Germany for crossing at red light, even with no car in sight, and for how bad an example this was for children at the scene.
- INTPenis 7y agoAs a cyclist in Malmö, Sweden, I wish I could shout at some people sometimes. But truth is that people cross against red all the time with no consequences. I stay out of principle.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- reallydontask 7y agoI know people that have had similar experiences in Austria
- filmor 7y agoRightly so. Children can't (as reliable as you) decide how safe it is in a given situation to cross.
- hycaria 7y agoChild was holding the hand of the shouting Oma.
- egeozcan 7y agoI learned to ignore them. The speed limit on the streets where children frequent are max 40 and even lower around traffic lights. Drivers should keep looking and assume neither children nor adults will follow traffic rules. You just need to learn to be defensive if you are navigating tons of steel inside a densely populated area.
- klmr 7y agoChildren learn by imitation. That, and not the fear that the child might run after you (?!), is the reason why it’s frowned upon to cross red lights in front of children.
- egeozcan 7y agoBut shouting at strangers is also a bad example. I hate the unbeatable "but think about the children" argument that seems to haunt many discussions. Let the families educate their own children. Educate the drivers that children may randomly jump to the street, may also stay there and not try to evade or do who-knows-what so they should be more careful driving through the city. That's actually the case in Germany, training for a license includes learning to be ridiculously (but usefully) defensive.
- yason 7y agoSurely kids should limit themselves to only crossing on green (well, until they grow out of it) but I've taught my children to watch the cars first, not the lights. A green pedestrian light doesn't mean there are no stray cars running red lights or turning-but-not-yielding. It's cars that injure people, not lights, so focus should always be on cars.
- Max_Mustermann 7y agoI have been fined by the police at 4 AM for the exact same thing.
- Nimitz14 7y agoAnd I lived in Germany for 12 years, crossing redlights probably every day, and was never reprimanded.
- hycaria 7y agoThis was in Berlin.
- fenrisbear 7y agoAlso there's a traffic law enabling pedestrians to freely cross the road if there is no obstruction to the traffic. There's still some people that don't know their limits, but that gives an idea of how this works in practice
- wahern 7y agoIt's much less common to cross against a Do Not Walk signal in countries like Singapore and Japan. I'm pretty sure they're still human.
- notahacker 7y agoSingapore is a good example of road crossing habits being culturally influenced. Jaywalking is unusual behaviour everywhere except the Little India district, where it appears to be compulsory ;-)
- StanislavPetrov 7y agoAs a New Yorker I'll never forget how my first time in LA everyone looked at me like an alien when I crossed the street against the light.
- robbick 7y ago_It's not a cultural thing, it's a human thing to be impatient._ True, but certain cultures see impatience as much worse flaw than other cultures leading to significant cultural differences in, say, crossing roads. Seriously, if you ever visit Japan it will seem strange but people do almost always wait for the light.
- jsjw7sbw 7y agoI think this is partly is an illusion created by the wider roads. Longer jaywalking distance discourages jaywalking. For example in the nordics wide roads are uncommon so jaywalking becomes more common and safe.
- ed_balls 7y ago> Why would Norwegians be different from other humans? Different cultures and legal system. I moved from UK to Poland. Almost everybody walks on red light in UK, almost nobody in Poland - you will get fined for doing so. I don't think anyone was fined for walking on red light in UK.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- imafish 7y agoI do not see this often in Denmark.
- ghaff 7y agoIt's a cultural thing. It even differs a lot by city in the US. In NYC, the mindset is take every inch you can get. In a lot of other places, pedestrians pay attention to walk/don't walk signals more than not.
- stephencanon 7y agoNormal everywhere in the northeast. People think I'm crazy in CA, as a fairly cautious New England pedestrian.
- thomasfl 7y agoI can confirm that bicyclists often cross the street on red light. Almost every biker uses helmets in Oslo. In the netherlands you rarely see any helmets on bicyclists.
- kmlx 7y agosame in the UK. but more than that, in the UK in any intersection with traffic lights the pedestrians will never have a green light at the same time as cars. meanwhile, in most countries i've visited making a left or a right turn in an intersection will most likely cause you to stop for pedestrians that also get a green light. frustrating and illogical!
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago“Right on red” in the US is a disgrace :-)
- adriang133 7y agoYou have to stop at crossings yes, and it makes sense. Usually when there's a red light in one direction, the one perpendicular to it will have a green light. Dublin is similar to the UK as far as I could tell, and honestly it felt like one of the worst design of traffic lights ever. Waiting for 2-3 minutes on a red light is pretty common, and green only lasts for 20-30 seconds. It's an absolute disaster for pedestrians, and as a result everyone jaywalks like crazy. I would say other countries have this right, even if drivers do have to give way to pedestrians immediately after a turn.
- kmlx 7y agoif you combine the red light for pedestrians with no fine for jaywalking if you don't cause issues, then the british/irish model starts to make sense :)
- mrspuratic 7y agoOn Dublin: 20 seconds green for pedestrians is on the generous side. "Scramble" type light sequences for pedestrians are few. Often only one or two arms of junctions have any pedestrian signal, which probably further confuses visitors. Cyclists selectively disregard road markings/signs/signals and frequently compete with pedestrians during crossings. In some areas extra lights for new cycle paths operate asynchronously to the road traffic lights, these can be within 25m, worsening the gridlock and the pedestrian invasion of junctions. In city centre areas a 30kmph speed limit is in force. A green for a motorist only ever means "proceed with caution", and a pedestrian already crossing the road at a junction always has priority (something many drivers don't seem aware of). Urban road user mortality is ~50% higher than Sweden, still relatively low compared to the EU overall, but the pending 2019 stats are worse.
- dmitriid 7y agoIn Stockholm people do cross at the red light, it's a Stockholm thing to do :) However, people try not to do that when there are children present.
- nchie 7y agoPeople definitely do that most of the time in Stockholm. If you see someone waiting for the light to turn green with no nearby cars, it's most likely because have kids with them or they're old and walk slow. Jaywalking is also very common.
- curiousgal 7y agoHaving lived in both the US and Europe, it's definitely less frequent in the US. But only because the streets are much wider making it scarier.
- georgyo 7y agoI think you are talking about jaywalking, but Europe and the US are really big. In LA you get a ticket for jaywalking, while in NYC everyone crosses anywhere including weaving though moving traffic. And some cities in Maine the pedestrian always has the right away at cross walks and otherwise don't have lights.
- Sharlin 7y agoI think it’s explicitly permitted by law in Sweden at least. It’s illegal in Finland (where I’m from), in theory at least, and I do think that should change. Pedestrian red light should mean ”may cross but must yield to other traffic”, ie. equivalent to the yield sign for vehicles.
- spiffistan 7y agoIt is explicitly permitted[1] in Norwegian law as well -- the law states that you may cross on a red light if it's not hindering any vehicle or dangerous. [1] https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2005-10-07-1219/KAPITTEL_13#%C2%A724 https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2005-10-07-1219/KAP...
- Sharlin 7y agoYeah, I thought so but wasn’t sure.
- yason 7y agopedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them You have to think what pedestrian lights are for. They exist solely to improve the flow of car traffic. Pedestrian lights are in gross contrast to the rights and benefits of pedestrians. Without lights, pedestrians would always have first priority on a crosswalk. Cars would have to stop for any pedestrian crossing the street. However, drivers (of inefficient but fast automobiles) don't like waiting for a more efficient form (on the city centre scale) of traffic (i.e. pedestrians) to cross the street so pedestrian lights exist to ensure enough green time for cars so that they don't always have to stop. Thus, it is no wonder that any sensible person wouldn't cross the street on red if there are no cars coming.
- raverbashing 7y agoAll other vehicles have lights for them, either for them to stop or have other vehicles stop for them (in the case of trains) It's natural that a locking mechanism would evolve for all cases. It's not a matter of being a car-centric monster, it's a matter of organizing traffic. > Without lights, pedestrians would always have first priority on a crosswalk Not all pedestrians cross in a crosswalk or look at what they're doing when they cross. Sure, let me stop abruptly for the pedestrian crossing right in front of me. Or in some situations pedestrians are always crossing (city-center) This works (mostly) for slow streets or very low pedestrian traffic (and car) ones. > hus, it is no wonder that any sensible person wouldn't cross the street on red if there are no cars coming. Completely agree
- jMyles 7y ago> Sure, let me stop abruptly for the pedestrian crossing right in front of me. Or in some situations pedestrians are always crossing (city-center) This is the price you pay for deciding to drive a car in a city. If you choose a less lethal (to others) form of transportation, you'll have to yield less frequently. The general principle of yielding downward (in terms of size of the conveyance) is hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years old, and is more sensible today than ever.
- 7y ago
- agurk 7y agoIn Copenhagen there's a nuance that you're socially expected to wait at marked pedestrian crossings until they're green, but it's ok to cross the road yourself at points where there's no marked crossing (and therefore no lights). People will do this 20m from a marked crossing too. This extends to people waiting in the middle of the road between traffic flows (usually on wider roads) which in my experience is only common behaviour in countries where jaywalking is not seen as a problem.
- scotty79 7y agoIn Poland you can be fined when you cross on red, but you are allowed to cross anywherere if crossing is farther than 100 meters (unless there are barriers) and on any intersection without marked crossing. Also pedestrians don't have right of way outside of marked crossings, even if they are about to enter them. We have a ton of accidents on pedestrian crossings so those rules are probably bad.
- mrweasel 7y ago>but it's ok to cross the road yourself at points where there's no marked crossing I'm not sure that it's viewed as OK, but yes, absolutely, people will do this. People will actively walk past a marked crossing, and 10 - 20 meters down the road walk straight out into traffic. It's amazingly absurd. Rather than wait a few minutes for a green light, some people will prefer to run between moving cars in an attempt to save a little time.
- Knufen 7y agoI live in Copenhagen and bicycle/walk daily, and I see people crossing when it's red at every single intersection. I also see bikes going back and forth on pedestrian lanes.
- _1tan 7y agoIt is prohibited by law in Germany: https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/44842/crossing-roads-in-berlin https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/44842/crossing-ro...
- odiroot 7y ago> One interesting observation on Oslo is that, pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them This is mostly true for Germany as well. At least in big cities.
- thegerman010 7y agoEver been to Amsterdam? Its crazy here
- t0mas88 7y agoHaha, was going to post this. Nobody waits for the lights in Amsterdam or any of the other sizable Dutch cities. Maybe part of that is that if you walk through a red light and get hit by a car the driver still takes at least 50% of the blame? And speeds in the inner city are very low due to bikes and now small scooters being on the same roads as well.
- tokai 7y ago>This is totally different from, for example, Copenhagen, Stockholm That's not right in my experience. Swedes walk across when it's red. Danes wait for green, even when standing by an empty road in the middle of the night. When the Øresund bridge was opened, Swedish television made news spots informing people in Scania that Danish motorist aren't used to people stepping out on the road, and to be attentive spotting danish cars.
- macleginn 7y agoI’ve just spent three weeks in Stockholm, and locals seem to generally ignore red lights if there are no cars nearby.
- ptaipale 7y agoAnd it's not punishable in Sweden (ie. you can walk the red light, you just have the duty to give way to vehicles and if you cause an accident, then you could be liable.)
- gokhan 7y agoBased on the replies, I'm obviously wrong on Stockholm, although I remember otherwise. We walked a lot there, the hotel was way outside the city center. Maybe it's because I was paying attention to tourists like me who obviously reluctant to cross on red in a foreign country.
- plumednom 7y agoAs an expat in Istanbul, I imagined you were surprised nobody tried to run you over. My only remaining fear in life is being run over by a taksi in Istanbul A friend of mine who grew up in Cihangir moved to Portland last year and managed to get hit by a car. She was confused the car was giving her the right of way to cross, so she sort of stepped back. He waved her on, she got nervous, stepped back again, he said "OK" and started going, she then jumped right in front of him.
- knorker 7y agoUhm, Stockholm is most definitely not an "obey the light" city for pedestrians.
- Chanderton 7y agoLive in Stockholm. And no, pedestrians don't give a darn about traffic lights (except when needed).
- J_cst 7y agocit. "They're like Italians of the north" I'd like to stress that Italy is quite diverse throughout and not all us Italians resemble the stereotype. Happy new year.
- nso 7y agoIn Norway it is not illegal to cross on red. What's illegal is to cause danger in traffic, which might be the case when cars pass.
- yawboakye 7y agoThis could also explain the low (or 0) deaths. When you're going against the system i.e. crossing or contemplating crossing the road without the instruction of the pedestrian traffic light, you're usually more alert to your surroundings. I cross the street at will in Berlin, and even on a one-way street I still look both ways to be extra sure.
- sfasfasdfa 7y ago"Turks have invaded and slaughtered scores of European peoples in the last thousand years. Recently in Cyprus, Syria, and Kurdistan. They're like the Germans of Central Asia" See what I did there? Keep your opinions of Italians to your self.
- jeltz 7y agoNo, in Sweden we also cross when there are no cars nearby. At least in Stockholm and Gothenburg.
- CelestialTeapot 7y agoI do the same when I am on my bicycle as long as there are no cars approaching. Particularly if I'm crossing a moderate speed highway. It's safer for me to clear the intersection when there are no cars moving in the same direction (or worse, wanting to make a right turn as I start moving). Unfortunately, I'm in America, where that is a moving violation in my state.
- Shalle135 7y agoIn Stockholm it’s really common to jaywalk. There is a law against it, but there is no punishment unless you caused a dangerous situation so you’re not going to get stopped by the cops for doing so. Also I was quite suprised the first time I heard of it being on to run a red light if you’re turning right. This is not legal AFAIK in all of Scandinavia nor the majority of Europe.
- oska 7y agoI'd suggest not even using the word 'jaywalk'. It's a propaganda word.
- altacc 7y agoIt's worth noting that Oslo has a lot of zebra crossings (pedestrian crossings that are not controlled by lights, with pedestrians having right of way over cars). They are at most junctions and regularly spaced along business districts and residential roads. So when you're driving around Oslo you have to be prepared for a pedestrian to step in front of you at any second. It certainly creates a careful, "slow & steady" driving mentality towards pedestrians. (This does not necessarily make them safer drivers at other times. Immigrants to Norway often discuss amongst themselves how bad Norwegian drivers can be.)
- phreeza 7y agoIn Germany, people generally do ignore red lights when there are no cars around. The big exception is when kids are present. Crossing a red light when a kid is watching you can get you reprimand by strangers, or will earn you dirty looks at the least.