10 ms·

If you live in Australia, what is this doing in terms of changing what people think and do about climate change? Is it motivating personal changes in diet, trav

If you live in Australia, what is this doing in terms of changing what people think and do about climate change? Is it motivating personal changes in diet, traveling and election voting choices? If this nightmare scenario isn't enough to push people into taking action, what will?

throwaway3CC9 7y ago
Nothing. A fire is not evidence of climate change any more than an absence of fire is evidence against.
- BLKNSLVR 7y ago
  (my opinion, obviously) That's as true as it is misleading. The changing climate definitely has an effect on the scale and intensity, but not the existence. Rating the scale is an essentially impossible task because the factors go back years (length and scale of drought, climate effects on that).
- kilroy_jones 7y ago
  And yet the severity and timing of them can be evidence.
- taneq 7y ago
  Large areas have burned in the Queensland fires which are rainforests and usually too wet to burn. A combination of unprecedented drought and record high temperatures over the past few years have dried these areas out sufficiently to sustain huge fires. But that’s just local observation and means nothing in terms of climate change, right? Edit: Clearly unrelated. https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-02/2019-was-australias-hottest-and-driest-year-on-record/11837312 https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-02/2019-was-australia...
  - anthony_doan 7y ago
    In God We Trust, All Others Must Have Data - W. Edwards Deming (Statistician) I dislike it when people make statement without data which leads to politic. You have provided an article which contain data that support climate change may cause this fire. I wish more people are like you.
- jamesbfb 7y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but the sheer number of them, how early they are occurring has got to account for something, no?
- pan69 7y ago
  Australia has been in a drought for the past decade which is caused by the changing climate. Yes, if you isolate this fire season then the fires themselves will look as no evidence of climate change. But the fact the everything is as dry as fuck when its not supposed to be dry as fuck... In northern Queensland we have rain forests. The fringes of those rain forests are burning, because they're dry as fuck. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-02/extent-of-fire-damage-in-gold-coast-rainforest-revealed/11567574 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-02/extent-of-fire-damage... Can you please open your mind?
  - mrfusion 7y ago
    I’m still confused. Nothing else can explain a period of dryness? I feel like it’s convenient to blame global warming without considering other ideas. Please note, I say this as a huge climate change activist. But this feels similar to blaming hurricanes on climate change to me.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      It is rarely possible to rule out that "something else" is the cause of a phenomenum. But the connection between rising temperatures and an exceptional dryness is quite obvious. So absent a very strong different explanation for the current dryness, climate change sounds like an important contributor if not the single cause.
    - polotics 7y ago
      Well hurricanes are also made stronger by the fact that CO2 traps more heat in lower layers and thus makes the upper atmosphere colder, leading to a higher differential with lower layers. So there you go, please inform your activism accordingly.
- pxi 7y ago
  Agreed - a single fire doesn't mean squat. Fires breaking out all over like an alien invasion mean the climate has already changed: https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au
yen223 7y ago
The elections have already happened in May, and people have rejected the Labor party who was pushing for climate change reforms. I suspect if the elections were to happen now, things might be different. Lots of people have directly or indirectly (thanks to heavy smog) suffered from the wildfires, moreso than previous summers.
- sumedh 7y ago
  > and people have rejected the Labor party who was pushing for climate change reforms. Labor were also saying that taxes will increase, I think that is the major factor for their loss.
  - Gustomaximus 7y ago
    LNP were also pushing hard that taxes will increase under labour with their big push on the 'Labor will introduce death tax' which was highly unethical and misleading.
edflsafoiewq 7y ago
What do you expect them to actually do? The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change.
- eeh 7y ago
  If every country acted that way, we'd make no progress. Every country needs to do its fair share, and Australia is not: http://theconversation.com/australia-hit-its-kyoto-target-but-it-was-more-a-three-inch-putt-than-a-hole-in-one-44731 http://theconversation.com/australia-hit-its-kyoto-target-bu...
  - shard972 7y ago
    And this will convince china and india to also lower how?
  - jamesbfb 7y ago
    Absolutely. Anthony Albanese (opposition leader for Labor here in Aus) said exactly this today on ABC. Whilst there is negligible correlation between the fires and our action (or inaction) to climate change as a country, the rhetoric of “well, we output so little compared of other developed nations” should not apply. Oh, and our elected Prime Minister brought a lump of coal into parliament, which says as much.
    - mceoin 7y ago
      Also important to recognize that Australia's carbon contribution is not solely limited to domestic output but also our coal industry. Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world and this is not properly accounted for in our emissions accounting. On a per-person basis, our output is among the highest in the world and the inaction of others does not absolve us from having a moral responsibility to clean up our own mess at the very least.
      - eeh 7y ago
        Counting exports would lead to double counting: once for the exporter, once for the user. All that matters is countries having fair targets, and meeting those targets. Countries are free to meet their emissions reductions targets how they like, including buying cheap coal from Australia, planes from US, and cars from Germany.
perfunctory 7y ago
> election voting choices Unfortunately, I don't believe voting one way or another will make much difference. One party might be slightly better than another, but ultimately none will dare to implement sufficient measures. Climate problem will have to be solved outside of party politics. We need something akin to civil rights movement. On the global scale.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  > We need something akin to civil rights movement. On the global scale. We also need someone other than Greta as the face of it. While she does a great job, she's often dismissed due to her age and the US president has even publicly called her retarded in the literal sense.
  - docdeek 7y ago
    "...publicly called her retarded" I didn't catch that one - is there a source? All I am Googling up is Trump telling her to chill, watch a movie, and a reference to anger management.
  - arrrg 7y ago
    Anyone who becomes the face of this will be relentlessly smeared, with no regard for reality. People in the streets is probably what you need.
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      There's a difference between smeared and dismissed. I've even heard from people that think we need to make a change say "what does she know she's only a kid".
  - roenxi 7y ago
    Greta is 16. A 16 year old brain is literally not fully developed. A global movement should be able to muster a better spokesperson than a child. No matter how earnest and scared a child may be, it is still a mistake to make major policy decisions on their say-so.
carl_sandland 7y ago
Here in Canberra, it feels like I'm living in a space station on a toxic planet; I haven't seen blue skies in a month. See this chart (https://air-quality.com/place/australia/australian-capital-territory/be182a98?lang=en&standard=aqi_us https://air-quality.com/place/australia/australian-capital-t...) which has air pollution literally OFF their chart ranges. Hearing the drivel spewing from our PM and other politicians; It's always the same pandering responses with no real strategic change. It's beyond frustrating. We will have to be destroyed (are being?) before anyone admits there is are real problems requiring real actions. I have noticed that at a more local level of government, the messaging has changed and is more serious now. Here are some thought bubbles; * more aggressive back-burning and fuel load management: managed at a federal level by law. * stop all new coal, keep replacing with ?whatever?, including a reappraisal of nuclear. * start retreating populations back towards cities: reverse the sprawl into protected urban bubbles. * start requiring building to have ventilation and filtering systems that can handle smoke better, and are more efficient at sealing air: I've heard many people complain about smokey insides: happens to me too ! * stricter criminal penalties for any arson related crimes. * restrictions on tourism to risky areas during the fire season. Either that or we finally DO become a giant desert from coast to coast: should be safe enough then!
- chris1993 7y ago
  One of the issues is that the 'window' for fuel load management/back burning is shrinking because the bush fire season is starting earlier. We had out of control fires from September, which is unheard of, and concerns that they were started by back burning operations.
  - gwillz 7y ago
    In contrast, we had snow in our alpine regions into December. The weather is completely nutty recently.
mceoin 7y ago
Can only speak from my personal circles but the current bushfires aren't having a direct impact on personal responsibility (those who were interested were already interested; those that weren't still aren't). We just had a political cycle where the Labor party lost on (among many reasons) a more climate-change focused agenda in the federal election, so we won't know for another three years if there is any any voter backlash. Additionally, parliament is not in session and the major parties are currently focused on crisis response (instead of attacking each other), so the political football has yet to truly begin. Aside from the considerable pain and hardship for these local communities and the potential increase in politicization of environmental issues, the tourism sector is being obviously effected as you simply can't drive to many parts of New South Wales right now, tourists are being asked to leave many areas, and Sydney has been smog filled for the last month.
- sumedh 7y ago
  > so we won't know for another three years if there is any any voter backlash Labour will say your taxes will increase, liberals will promise more tax cuts and everyone will vote for Liberal again.
  - rs23296008n1 7y ago
    Not so much in Cobargo. They were somewhat less than enthusiastic over the Prime Bureaucrat's recent visit.
    - mceoin 7y ago
      Yes it's definitely possible that Bega will flip next state election even though the anger is directed at federal leadership.
- perilunar 7y ago
  > Sydney has been smog filled for the last month. Not smog, just plain smoke.
  - 7y ago
cookie_monsta 7y ago
If you live in in the US you might be familiar with the line that some conservative politicians are taking - that this is a time of crisis, tragedy and grieving and should not be politicised.
- martin_a 7y ago
  Thoughts and prayers!
Aaron_Putnam 7y ago
The biggest driver of Australia's increased emissions is the increasing population: https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/07/greenhouse-gas-emissions-tracking-population-growth/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/07/greenhouse-gas-emis... Under current immigration settings Australia will reach 40 million people by 2050. With zero net overseas migration, the population would stabilise at 27 million then fall slightly. This is the most important change that could be made to assist the Australian environment, but sadly discussing immigration is completely disallowed in mainstream Australian media.
look_lookatme 7y ago
Do you have a real example of how to take meaningful action that makes a difference, right now, today?

throwaway3CC9 7y ago

Nothing. A fire is not evidence of climate change any more than an absence of fire is evidence against.

BLKNSLVR 7y ago
(my opinion, obviously) That's as true as it is misleading. The changing climate definitely has an effect on the scale and intensity, but not the existence. Rating the scale is an essentially impossible task because the factors go back years (length and scale of drought, climate effects on that).
kilroy_jones 7y ago
And yet the severity and timing of them can be evidence.
taneq 7y ago
Large areas have burned in the Queensland fires which are rainforests and usually too wet to burn. A combination of unprecedented drought and record high temperatures over the past few years have dried these areas out sufficiently to sustain huge fires. But that’s just local observation and means nothing in terms of climate change, right? Edit: Clearly unrelated. https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-02/2019-was-australias-hottest-and-driest-year-on-record/11837312 https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-02/2019-was-australia...
- anthony_doan 7y ago
  In God We Trust, All Others Must Have Data - W. Edwards Deming (Statistician) I dislike it when people make statement without data which leads to politic. You have provided an article which contain data that support climate change may cause this fire. I wish more people are like you.
jamesbfb 7y ago
Correct me if I am wrong, but the sheer number of them, how early they are occurring has got to account for something, no?
pan69 7y ago
Australia has been in a drought for the past decade which is caused by the changing climate. Yes, if you isolate this fire season then the fires themselves will look as no evidence of climate change. But the fact the everything is as dry as fuck when its not supposed to be dry as fuck... In northern Queensland we have rain forests. The fringes of those rain forests are burning, because they're dry as fuck. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-02/extent-of-fire-damage-in-gold-coast-rainforest-revealed/11567574 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-02/extent-of-fire-damage... Can you please open your mind?
- mrfusion 7y ago
  I’m still confused. Nothing else can explain a period of dryness? I feel like it’s convenient to blame global warming without considering other ideas. Please note, I say this as a huge climate change activist. But this feels similar to blaming hurricanes on climate change to me.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    It is rarely possible to rule out that "something else" is the cause of a phenomenum. But the connection between rising temperatures and an exceptional dryness is quite obvious. So absent a very strong different explanation for the current dryness, climate change sounds like an important contributor if not the single cause.
  - polotics 7y ago
    Well hurricanes are also made stronger by the fact that CO2 traps more heat in lower layers and thus makes the upper atmosphere colder, leading to a higher differential with lower layers. So there you go, please inform your activism accordingly.
pxi 7y ago
Agreed - a single fire doesn't mean squat. Fires breaking out all over like an alien invasion mean the climate has already changed: https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au https://myfirewatch.landgate.wa.gov.au

yen223 7y ago

The elections have already happened in May, and people have rejected the Labor party who was pushing for climate change reforms. I suspect if the elections were to happen now, things might be different. Lots of people have directly or indirectly (thanks to heavy smog) suffered from the wildfires, moreso than previous summers.

sumedh 7y ago
> and people have rejected the Labor party who was pushing for climate change reforms. Labor were also saying that taxes will increase, I think that is the major factor for their loss.
- Gustomaximus 7y ago
  LNP were also pushing hard that taxes will increase under labour with their big push on the 'Labor will introduce death tax' which was highly unethical and misleading.

edflsafoiewq 7y ago

What do you expect them to actually do? The entire CO2 output of Australia could drop to zero with negligible effect on climate change.

eeh 7y ago
If every country acted that way, we'd make no progress. Every country needs to do its fair share, and Australia is not: http://theconversation.com/australia-hit-its-kyoto-target-but-it-was-more-a-three-inch-putt-than-a-hole-in-one-44731 http://theconversation.com/australia-hit-its-kyoto-target-bu...
- shard972 7y ago
  And this will convince china and india to also lower how?
- jamesbfb 7y ago
  Absolutely. Anthony Albanese (opposition leader for Labor here in Aus) said exactly this today on ABC. Whilst there is negligible correlation between the fires and our action (or inaction) to climate change as a country, the rhetoric of “well, we output so little compared of other developed nations” should not apply. Oh, and our elected Prime Minister brought a lump of coal into parliament, which says as much.
  - mceoin 7y ago
    Also important to recognize that Australia's carbon contribution is not solely limited to domestic output but also our coal industry. Australia is the largest exporter of coal in the world and this is not properly accounted for in our emissions accounting. On a per-person basis, our output is among the highest in the world and the inaction of others does not absolve us from having a moral responsibility to clean up our own mess at the very least.
    - eeh 7y ago
      Counting exports would lead to double counting: once for the exporter, once for the user. All that matters is countries having fair targets, and meeting those targets. Countries are free to meet their emissions reductions targets how they like, including buying cheap coal from Australia, planes from US, and cars from Germany.

perfunctory 7y ago

> election voting choices Unfortunately, I don't believe voting one way or another will make much difference. One party might be slightly better than another, but ultimately none will dare to implement sufficient measures. Climate problem will have to be solved outside of party politics. We need something akin to civil rights movement. On the global scale.

hanniabu 7y ago
> We need something akin to civil rights movement. On the global scale. We also need someone other than Greta as the face of it. While she does a great job, she's often dismissed due to her age and the US president has even publicly called her retarded in the literal sense.
- docdeek 7y ago
  "...publicly called her retarded" I didn't catch that one - is there a source? All I am Googling up is Trump telling her to chill, watch a movie, and a reference to anger management.
- arrrg 7y ago
  Anyone who becomes the face of this will be relentlessly smeared, with no regard for reality. People in the streets is probably what you need.
  - hanniabu 7y ago
    There's a difference between smeared and dismissed. I've even heard from people that think we need to make a change say "what does she know she's only a kid".
- roenxi 7y ago
  Greta is 16. A 16 year old brain is literally not fully developed. A global movement should be able to muster a better spokesperson than a child. No matter how earnest and scared a child may be, it is still a mistake to make major policy decisions on their say-so.

carl_sandland 7y ago

Here in Canberra, it feels like I'm living in a space station on a toxic planet; I haven't seen blue skies in a month. See this chart (https://air-quality.com/place/australia/australian-capital-territory/be182a98?lang=en&standard=aqi_us https://air-quality.com/place/australia/australian-capital-t...) which has air pollution literally OFF their chart ranges. Hearing the drivel spewing from our PM and other politicians; It's always the same pandering responses with no real strategic change. It's beyond frustrating. We will have to be destroyed (are being?) before anyone admits there is are real problems requiring real actions. I have noticed that at a more local level of government, the messaging has changed and is more serious now. Here are some thought bubbles; * more aggressive back-burning and fuel load management: managed at a federal level by law. * stop all new coal, keep replacing with ?whatever?, including a reappraisal of nuclear. * start retreating populations back towards cities: reverse the sprawl into protected urban bubbles. * start requiring building to have ventilation and filtering systems that can handle smoke better, and are more efficient at sealing air: I've heard many people complain about smokey insides: happens to me too ! * stricter criminal penalties for any arson related crimes. * restrictions on tourism to risky areas during the fire season. Either that or we finally DO become a giant desert from coast to coast: should be safe enough then!

chris1993 7y ago
One of the issues is that the 'window' for fuel load management/back burning is shrinking because the bush fire season is starting earlier. We had out of control fires from September, which is unheard of, and concerns that they were started by back burning operations.
- gwillz 7y ago
  In contrast, we had snow in our alpine regions into December. The weather is completely nutty recently.

mceoin 7y ago

Can only speak from my personal circles but the current bushfires aren't having a direct impact on personal responsibility (those who were interested were already interested; those that weren't still aren't). We just had a political cycle where the Labor party lost on (among many reasons) a more climate-change focused agenda in the federal election, so we won't know for another three years if there is any any voter backlash. Additionally, parliament is not in session and the major parties are currently focused on crisis response (instead of attacking each other), so the political football has yet to truly begin. Aside from the considerable pain and hardship for these local communities and the potential increase in politicization of environmental issues, the tourism sector is being obviously effected as you simply can't drive to many parts of New South Wales right now, tourists are being asked to leave many areas, and Sydney has been smog filled for the last month.

sumedh 7y ago
> so we won't know for another three years if there is any any voter backlash Labour will say your taxes will increase, liberals will promise more tax cuts and everyone will vote for Liberal again.
- rs23296008n1 7y ago
  Not so much in Cobargo. They were somewhat less than enthusiastic over the Prime Bureaucrat's recent visit.
  - mceoin 7y ago
    Yes it's definitely possible that Bega will flip next state election even though the anger is directed at federal leadership.
perilunar 7y ago
> Sydney has been smog filled for the last month. Not smog, just plain smoke.
- 7y ago

cookie_monsta 7y ago

If you live in in the US you might be familiar with the line that some conservative politicians are taking - that this is a time of crisis, tragedy and grieving and should not be politicised.

martin_a 7y ago
Thoughts and prayers!

Aaron_Putnam 7y ago

The biggest driver of Australia's increased emissions is the increasing population: https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/07/greenhouse-gas-emissions-tracking-population-growth/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/07/greenhouse-gas-emis... Under current immigration settings Australia will reach 40 million people by 2050. With zero net overseas migration, the population would stabilise at 27 million then fall slightly. This is the most important change that could be made to assist the Australian environment, but sadly discussing immigration is completely disallowed in mainstream Australian media.

look_lookatme 7y ago

Do you have a real example of how to take meaningful action that makes a difference, right now, today?