14 ms·

Ditch Starbucks and work at the library

330 points by apress 16y ago

Roritharr 16y ago
Well, actually i did work at the library, but i changed for one reason to my local coffeeplace: taking and making calls. Thats the one reason i've left the library. I tried a starbucks for working but he is right, the tables are not big enough etc, so i actually went to a local coffeeshop and talked to the owner about me liking to work at his place. I made a deal with him, i did all the quick-wins of online advertisement for him, (it's in germany so: qype, facebook, twitter, simple page with a fair amount of seo). For this i got my special table, big enough for everything i would ever need(i could easily place 2 macbooks + papers on it) + a coffee and bagle flatrate for a year. I think we both made a good deal.
- Gormo 16y ago
  I wonder if there's a market for a coffee shop that has small, private office spaces available, perhaps available for free or for an hourly rent. These might be the size of a typical restaurant booth (or a bit larger), but would be enclosed spaces that allow you to block out noise and distractions. It wouldn't even need to be a coffee shop; maybe something like a capsule hotel for workspaces.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    No. A bunch of people tried that over the last couple years in Chicago; all of them went bust. There are too many viable alternatives to "rental cubby" to charge enough. And coffee shops of all forms are almost sure-fire money losers.
    - jeromec 16y ago
      And coffee shops of all forms are almost sure-fire money losers. I'd never heard that before. Is Starbucks an exception? Does their volume make the difference?
      - krakensden 16y ago
        I'd bet it has to do with space, if you're in the rental business, you need more of it- and it's expensive. If you're Starbucks, you do your feasibility calculations without assuming you'll get worker-cubby rental money.
      - forgotAgain 16y ago
        It requires management as well. A nearby, locally owned, not a chain, shop went bust recently. There wasn't a professional manager there covering when the owner was absent. Things went downhill quickly.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        For any piece of real estate that is ideal as a coffee shop setting, one of Starbucks, Peets, Caribou, or Seattle's Best is bound to be the top bidder. The exceptions to this rule are dense metro areas where virtually every corner retail space is an ideal coffee shop location; the problem with this exception is that these spots are spectacularly expensive and serve markets already saturated with coffee shops.
    - neild 16y ago
      Coffee shops are pretty much the opposite of sure-fire money losers. This article is a few years old, but: The failure rate for new coffeehouses is a mere 10 percent, according to the market research firm Mintel, which means the vast majority of cafes stay afloat no matter where Starbucks drops its stores. Compare that to the restaurant business, where failure is the norm. - http://www.slate.com/id/2180301/pagenum/all/#page_start http://www.slate.com/id/2180301/pagenum/all/#page_start There's a reason you can find coffee shops--both franchised and independent--everywhere you go. Selling $.16 of coffee for $4 is quite profitable!
      - tptacek 16y ago
        I see your Slate article quoting a market research report with another Slate article from someone who actually built a coffee shop, and raise you with a question and an observation. First, the article: http://www.slate.com/id/2132576/ http://www.slate.com/id/2132576/ Second, the question: does that "10% failure rate" stat include Starbucks, Seattle's Best, Caribou, Peets, or Tully's? The rest of Mintel's stats do. Finally, the observation: the margin on coffee beans doesn't determine the margin of a coffee house. Coffee beans aren't the dominant expense of a coffee house. Wages, followed by rent, are instead. You'll like that Slate article; it has math, and everything.
        neild 16y ago
        I remember reading the Slate article you're citing when it first came out. It's a fairly amusing one, which can be summarized as: "Wealthy person without a lick of business sense opens the 'café' of his dreams, declines to do any work himself, and goes out of business." It's entirely irrelevant to the economics of the average coffee shop. First off, it's not clear to me whether the establishment the author opened was a coffee shop or a restaurant. The subtitle says "coffee shop", but the article then talks about finding someone to "whip up pretty crepes". I recognize that the dividing line between restaurant and coffee shop can be a bit fuzzy on occasion, but it's there and relevant. Most restaurants fail. The really notable part of the article comes at the end, however: "There was, of course, one way to make the cafe viable: It was written into the Golden Rule itself. My wife Lily and I could work there, full-time, save on the payroll, and gerrymander the rest of the budget to allow for lower sales." Yes, Mr. Michael Idov, you could have done that. You should have done that, from the start. That's what small business owners do: They work. That's what your competitors were doing. The goal may be to eventually make enough money to hire people to do all the work, but that's not where you start. You start by busting your ass. That's the story of a dilettante who opened a restaurant as a fashion statement and went the way of all such fools. Anyway, back to coffee shops. I don't know if Mintel's stats include the chains. They probably do. You might note, however, that the article I referenced is entirely dedicated to the proposition that Starbucks's presence in the market has been good for small, independently-owned coffee shops. Furthermore, even if we assume that no chain stores fail at all, a 10% industry failure rate would still have independent coffee shops doing pretty well. (Back of the envelope calculation: 14,000 independent coffee houses in the US in 2005, 11,000 Starbucks in the US in 2010, so let's say indies are only 25% of the total. If 10% of the total fail and all failures are indies, then 40% of indies fail. 60% success rate isn't bad for small businesses.) And, finally, you're right that the margin on coffee beans doesn't determine the margin of a coffee house. That's what happens when your cost of goods is effectively zero, and I assure you that any restaurant or retail outlet would love for their margin to be solely determined by wages and rent.
  - eavc 16y ago
    At that point, you might as well find co-working space with decent coffee.
    - rue 16y ago
      Sadly there isn't a single co-working space in this city. Starting one doesn't sound like a viable business plan either.
  - carbon8 16y ago
    Basically what you are describing is a coworking space. Coworking spaces are great, but from the perspective of an operator (I recently opened one) it's not a business to go into if you are looking to make money with it. Rent can only be so cheap (and in the US the commercial real estate market is already picking up again), you only have so much space and people are only willing to pay a certain amount. It's also logistically more difficult to manage and monitor an hourly pricing structure than one that's per visit/day/week/month and those longer periods require larger lump sums then some people are willing to pay. Coffee shops, which are more profitable but also not usually a huge money makers, can make money from walk-ins and, due to the lower upfront prices, require less commitment from each customer. There are a few hybrid coffee shop/coworking spaces, but it's unclear how viable the model actually is. Commercial espresso machines are very expensive ($10K-$15K+), barista salaries are an additional expense and you need to balance serving people who walk in with the people who are on the coworking side. Also, if you have things like enclosed booths that means you have to fit in fewer people per square ft. So, there's often a market there, but the economics are such that it's hard to make it very profitable, certainly much harder than many other businesses. Still, just so this doesn't sound completely pessimistic, it's not much work to maintain a straight coworking space (not much more than a regular office), it's entirely possible to make enough money to offset the work you put into it and there is a lot of value that extends beyond the immediate financial compensation.
T_S_ 16y ago
Or a hacker space. Lots of like minded people to share ideas with, help, and be helped by. My favorite is Hacker Dojo in Mountain View. What's yours?
famousactress 16y ago
Good reminder to finally go try this... but honestly, it is the phone usage that's worried me. I hop on Skype many times a day, and the overall noise-floor at a coffee shop makes it possible to do so without bothering anyone (I use earbuds, so hearing isn't generally an issue). I think our library has a nice outdoor area though.. might be okay to take calls out there.
anthonycerra 16y ago
Working in a library is second to none, but the advantage Starbucks has over the library is the late closing. University library hours are one thing, but regular ol' public libraries close too early.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  And open too late.
  - kordless 16y ago
    And don't let you have coffee.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      That sucks; you can have coffee in the Chicago and Oak Park libraries.
      - levesque 16y ago
        The library in Quebec city won't even let you have a bottle of water open on your table, forget coffee.
    - rdouble 16y ago
      The Minneapolis Public Library has a coffee shop inside.
    - silentbicycle 16y ago
      This varies tremendously from location to location. Covered coffee mugs are often allowed.
- u48998 16y ago
  Not only they open late and closed early, they are not a good alternative for consistent work particularly if you require your phones to be on. However, libraries are generally better and spacious than coffee shops. mcDonalds is another alternative if you find chairs that are not hard.
alexophile 16y ago
In my (biased, but well-founded) experience, it comes down to a question of whether I'd rather be distracted by a cute girl or an old man getting reprimanded for looking at dirty pictures. [bg: I really like libraries - worked at one in the suburbs in high school and have since moved to the city, which exaggerated the weird bits] One thing that's worth noting: if you're on a college campus, a great place to find some legit quiet time is in departmental libraries, especially the social sciences.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  A couple years back, I decided to pay a visit to the campus library during the FISL (international free-software forum) that happens every year in Porto Alegre, Brazil on the PUC (pontifical catholic university) campus. I needed to grab some articles from CACM and their library has full access to the ACM online library, as well as decent wireless, something no tech event quite manages to have. Porto Alegre is notorious for having a disproportionate number of cute girls. I was on the Engineering floor and, even there, I got distracted several times by them. So, no, it's not every library that's cute-girl-free. Unfortunately, they don't serve coffee.
  - Roritharr 16y ago
    Sounds like a good place to go study abroad...
    - ramchip 16y ago
      You'll have to refrain these thoughts. It's a catholic campus ;)
      - rbanffy 16y ago
        The good thing with catholicism is that there is always forgiveness for those who repent.
        bobbyi 16y ago
siculars 16y ago
++. I don't know why more people don't do this. The library is a great place to work - for free - and it comes with built in offline distractions for when you need to step away from a problem. I used to spend a lot of time at Columbia University's Butler library. Libraries are also a great place to get internet access. I spent a lot of time in local libraries while traveling around New Zealand.
- waqf 16y ago
  The main branch of the public library in Christchurch explicitly offers free wifi even when it's closed ... that's hard to beat (if you can find anywhere to sit).
  - regomodo 16y ago
    It's capped to ~few hundred meg. At least when I was there for ~2 months a couple years back. It's really easy to get around though. About the "if you can find anywhere to sit". I've never been in a library that was so full. I found that upstairs in the glassed off area to be the best. Got a lot done there. NZ really does have some great libraries. Whangerei, Wellington and Christchurch being examples.
silentbicycle 16y ago
Previous discussion of a similar post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Nice catch - there's good discussion there, too.
- crististm 16y ago
  I was having a deja-vu with this post...
cowmixtoo 16y ago
Unfortunately, I echo many of the reservations of working at my local public library: can't make calls, horrible hours of operation, etc. I'll add one more thing: horrible network filtering.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Where do you people live? Our libraries open early in the morning and close at 9PM.
pavel_lishin 16y ago
Starbucks still charges for WiFi? I thought they did away with that. In any case, I always got around it by pretending to be an iPhone. :)
- kordless 16y ago
  It's free at the Starbucks where I live.
- corin_ 16y ago
  In the UK it's free if you have a registered Starbucks card (which doesn't cost anything).
- BarkMore 16y ago
  WiFi has been free at Starbucks in the USA since July 2010. Before that, a registered Starbucks card got you free WiFi.
- pkchen 16y ago
  It's free at all Starbucks now. Makes for a much laggier experience though, since everyone is up on that bandwidth
peregrine 16y ago
This is spectacular for small towns or smaller regional libraries but have you ever been to a large city library? It brings out some of the weirdest people. Collegiate libraries in my experience are nice, but can get crowded at times.
- tptacek 16y ago
  I spent the first year of my company working out of a big city library. It worked great. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458
krschmidt 16y ago
Internet speed can also be an issue, for good or bad. I'll hit the coffee shop if I'm syncing with a server regularly or know I'll be researching a bunch, but the I'll hit the library if I want the internet to feel like dial-up.
- micah63 16y ago
  exactly, the library is great and super quiet, but I was there today and the internet was horrendous...
dhyasama 16y ago
I work out the Columbia University libraries, although I'm not a student. For $500/year you can become a Friend of the Libraries and have access to all the libraries. It's a bargain if you consider how much you would spend at a coffee shop. Also, like the article says, fewer distractions and much more space.
- Tycho 16y ago
  Gosh... I guess i'm pretty lucky to live near my former Uni which only charges £40 yearly for former students. There's also a nice local council one nearby with free wifi, free membership for taxpayers. Another advantage is all the money you can save on heating bills. Starbucks is outrageously expensive though - some cafés are much cheaper, and nicer.
  - dhyasama 16y ago
    I grew up in Maine and went to UMaine. The library there is open to the public. I'm in New York now and due to city budget cuts most public library branches don't open until 11AM which doesn't work for my schedule. Columbia is within walking distance of my apartment and $42/month is a screaming bargain since I'm so much more productive there than at a cafe.
- wildmXranat 16y ago
  Yes, this is a great idea. I paid a much smaller fee of $60 to have access to Mississauga libraries as an out of the city resident. My biggest question is : does the fee include access to library wifi, but at $500, it's still rather steep.
  - dhyasama 16y ago
    It does include wifi as well as reading privileges, but not lending.
- blackguardx 16y ago
  I'm surprised they offer such a service. The Columbia U. library is notorious for being stingy with access. As a prospective grad student visiting the campus, they told me that I could have a once-time free pass and that if I ever wanted to get in again at some point during the rest of my life, I would have to become a student. They even refused admittance to a friend of mine who was philosophy PhD student at U Penn. She was surprised because it is pretty normal to go to other campus libraries to do research for dissertations.
psb 16y ago
My bank has a little lobby with a coffee machine where I and a couple others hang out and work. I like to stand up while I work and they have a couple taller tables that work nicely for me.
- Luc 16y ago
  Are they happy with this, or have they just not noticed? I'd feel bad about using another business's resources unless they explicitly allow it.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    Well, it's his bank, so the lobby really is for his use to some degree. Also, I'd have to think they'd pay attention to who hangs out in their lobby repeatedly and for any length of time, if only for security reasons. (Or I'd have to hope.) As long as he's a customer and doesn't seem to pose a problem, they probably don't mind. (And bankers would do something if they perceived a problem, if only by having the security guard hang out very close to the people in question.) If they haven't noticed that a few people work in the lobby, then those people really must not be impinging on anyone there.
- bigwally 16y ago
  Sounds like Hetty Green. She made millions working from a bank counter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green#Miser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green#Miser
erikpukinskis 16y ago
I've tried to work at libraries in the past, but more often than not they block port 22, which means no workie for me. Yes, I could set up a proxy server on EC2 or something. Or I could go to a coffee shop.
edw519 16y ago
Maybe we're lucky in Pittsburgh, but we have the best of both worlds at the main branch of the Carnegie Library. You can take a tour of where I work 2 or 3 days per week: http://www.clpgh.org/locations/main/tours/virtualtour/ http://www.clpgh.org/locations/main/tours/virtualtour/ It's fantastic. It was built by Andrew Carnegie in 1895 and most of it is original. I get inspiration from the 20 foot ceilings and hand made ornamentation everywhere you look. They simply don't build things like this any more. There are quiet reading rooms, large tables, plenty of light, and oh yeah, a Crazy Mocha coffee shop in the building. I use a cell phone dongle on my laptop and most people know that email is my preferred communication method. If I need a break, I can look at priceless artifacts in the Carnegie museum through the windows in the open stacks. Or just get the world's most disgusting hot dog at the "O" a block away. If I need inspiration, that'll either make me or break me. One of these days, I'd like to make the claim that some incredible technology of the 21st century was conceived in an edifice borne out of the some of the best technology of the 19th century. "My aspirations take a higher flight. Mine be it to have contributed to the enlightenment and the joys of the mind, to the things of the spirit, to all that tends to bring into the lives of the toilers of Pittsburgh sweetness and light. I hold this the noblest possible use of wealth." - Andrew Carnegie at the Dedication of Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh, November 5, 1895.
- infocaptor 16y ago
  vow, another pittsburgher. I once used the North hills library and it was really productive. Will have to check out the moon library.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    There's a bunch of us around here.
    - infocaptor 16y ago
      Hey Steve, you got pretty cool website. Was really tempted to enter a password at the bottom :)
aplusbi 16y ago
I have occasionally brought my laptop to the library near my office to work. However if I'm at home and want to head out, the nearest coffee shop is 4 blocks away and the nearest library is 20.
ConceptDog 16y ago
I'll echo the same as most other posters: Internet is the limiting factor. I love working there. No distractions is a great way to shut out the world and focus. My local libraries limited internet access to an hour a day. If 3g was cheaper in Canada, I'd just man up and get a stick or tether to my cell, but I'd need a line of credit to make that happen.
ben1040 16y ago
Best thing I've ever done. I work for a university and happen to live a few blocks away, so I will go to their library to work on my side projects. They close at 2AM and I've found a nice room there where undergrads don't seem to want to wander, so it's a perfect place to work. It's quiet, and I've been conditioned from years of schooling that when I'm sitting at a table at the library, I ought to be working and not slacking. And, I can access journals, news archives, Safari/O'Reilly books, and all sorts of other useful resources while on the library wireless network. I can still even get a cup of coffee at the coffee shop in the library for cheaper than Starbucks, and it comes right out of my paycheck.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
...while they still exist.
wave 16y ago
It doesn't have to be either Starbucks or a library. It can be both.
- levesque 16y ago
  I would definitely go to a library that serves lattes and pastry ;)
- Semiapies 16y ago
  A pool of places is probably a good idea for third-place workers. Renovations, etc. can make any particular library or cafe unavailable.
SwellJoe 16y ago
I have a 3G/4G modem with unlimited use (from Clear), and no longer consider WiFi availability as an important part of the decision making process of where to work. I'm currently camped in the desert in Southern California, 35 miles from the nearest "big" city (Brawley, which is not very big, but it does have a Walmart). But, I never have been able to work in coffee shops. I can't think long enough with all the distractions to do anything of real value. Email, sure. Browsing reddit, no problem. But, actual work? No way. Library would probably work, though I've only tried it a few times when I was in Canada and didn't have 3G; it didn't work very well, as the Internet was always too slow or broken.
- code_duck 16y ago
  In the past I have lived or died by Starbucks and Caribou - driving around Omaha or some random town in Colorado trying to find public internet access. Now that I have a phone with national internet access, truly mobile internet is going to completely change how I work when I travel. The rest stops with wifi have been fun finds in the past. There's one 50 miles west of Omaha for instance with decent wireless internet - I got a lot of odd looks sitting at a picnic table with my Macbook doing emails for two hours. Now, I can do that anywhere!
  - SwellJoe 16y ago
    My Kindle was priceless in Canada. It has free 3G web browsing, even internationally...so, when I was stopping for the night, I'd do a search for "free wifi (city-name)", and punch the resulting address into the GPS. The Kindle browser is completely unusable for normal browsing (it's like browsing from 1994), but it's acceptable for that one query. I've found that rest stops with WiFi are rarely in working condition. I'm not sure why it's so hard for public hotspots to be kept operational, but apparently it is, as I'd say 75% of the ones at unattended locations are simply not working. I've learned to never expect WiFi to work, even if it is advertised on the sign or on the website or whatever. The same is true of campgrounds, 80% of which claim to have WiFi but only about 40% of which actually have usable speed and reliability. I'm tempted, being a nerd, to just go around fixing campground networks, free of charge. But, usually, I just use my 3G/4G modem. I'm getting 500kbps-1Mbps here in the desert, which is completely usable.
eavc 16y ago
Great point. For the less mature, I think the library helps strip away the pretense a bit too. Sipping lattes and being on Twitter seem to go together. Being at the library and doing real work seem to go together too.
acconrad 16y ago
This post is neglecting to list the most obvious reason of all to work at the library - a wealth of reference information (in...gasp!...something you can hold and read in any light!)
bricestacey 16y ago
Many academic libraries are open to the public and have better accommodations. I live in Boston so it's academic library heaven.
- cmontgomeryb 16y ago
  I still go to my University library. It was a fantastic place to work when I was there, and has only gotten better. There's a nice atmosphere - people are generally working, but having a laugh and enjoying being together too. There's no music but my own headphones, and the WiFi is free. I'm surrounded by books on any subject I may need through the day. My local library however, is drab, too quiet and I feel out of place with my lap top working there. Like I'm being watched for doing something odd. I get more distractions as the noise level is less consistent.
shortlived 16y ago
It sounds like people need to open more hacker work spaces.
dlevine 16y ago
I've tried working in the library on a number of occasions. The one bad thing I've discovered is that the WIFI sucks at pretty much every public library I've worked at. And I think that's a sample size of 4 or 5 libraries. I live almost right next to the main branch of the San Francisco Public Library, and every time I've gone there to work, I've left after a while because the Internet was too slow or didn't work quite right. So if I want to get any coding done, and need access to the Internet, I have found the library to be a pretty bad place. If I'm just doing some quiet reading, the library can be great.
- ja27 16y ago
  I've worked from two libraries near my house quite a bit as well as a couple sandwich shops. (I can't stand the smell of burning coffee.) The sandwich shops are less distracting to me. All the conversations and background noise blend together for me. I try to avoid rush times and busy days so I'm not tying up a table when they need them. The libraries are ok but have some problems. Neither really get many homeless guys but both have a lot of kids, especially in the afternoon. With big open floorplans, that's more noise than I can ignore. The availability of books sometimes distracts me, but to be honest, the book collections are now so old and unimpressive that it's not a big deal. The other problem is that the libraries block a number of things on their network, like most webmail, instant messengers, and most VPNs. I'm still able to use https for GMail and my work tunnel so I can work there, but it seems unnecessarily restrictive.
- wtn 16y ago
  Yes, SFPL wireless network internet is terrible.
neild 16y ago
I like the distractions of a good coffee shop. I like being someplace with music playing and people wandering through. It provides engagement for the parts of my brain I don't use when working. My favorite coffee shops are loud enough that I'm not distracted by other people's conversations. Either the music is loud enough to drown them out, or enough people are talking at once that it all blends into a meaningless susurration. A place which is too quiet--like most libraries, actually--amplifies distractions.
sfphotoarts 16y ago
"one time a woman asked me to troubleshoot her connectivity issues. Sorry, lady, but I’m trying to work here." I stopped reading at that point.
SystemOut 16y ago
I like the library over Starbucks (or other coffee shops) but our local county libraries aren't open 7 days a week anymore due to budget cuts. I'll have to try the local community college library though -- I hadn't really considered it in the past.
noodle 16y ago
love the idea, in theory. in practice, i'd have to drive to library, but can walk to any number of coffee shops or book stores instead. much easier to execute for a student.
krosaen 16y ago
we conduct our monthly usability studies at the library in two adjacent study rooms. quiet and no bullshit internet, skype screen sharing is no problem :)
stevejalim 16y ago
Before I got a proper office, I'd have loved to have worked at my local library when I needed a break from working in the house. Only problem: the library (like most UK ones, I imagine) won't let members of the public plug in laptops for power. :o(
abyssknight 16y ago
My wife actually works at and for the library. Trust me when I say, you definitely don't want to work there. The amount of riff raff that hangs around that joint is just not worth it. People get trespassed, throw fits, steal DVDs, look at all manner of inappropriate material, and even straight up make scenes. The bathrooms are often vandalized with bodily excrement and the couches, as comfy as they may be, are also covered in the same if the cleaners haven't come that day. There are plenty of other coworking spaces you could join or support. Do yourself a favor, check them out.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  That'll vary a lot by library and surrounding community. I've been in central libraries that were clean and didn't have anything worse happening than children being told to shush. It'd probably worth visiting and checking one's local library out if you need a remote place to work. Spend a couple of hours - leisurely find some books, read a magazine or two - and see whether you're comfortable there. If so, then try coming in with your laptop.
  - Periodic 16y ago
    University libraries are generally well kept. They are better funded than the public libraries, and (often) being private property they have more discretion as to who they can throw out. Unfortunately the advent of magnetized key cards seems to be resulting in an increase in the number of libraries that require you to "swipe in". However, you'll have to find the quiet corners because roudy college kids can make the main areas distracting.
timmins 16y ago
I would agree with working at library. But I haven't been able to overcome one notable issue: Hours: Saturday 10AM - 5PM Sunday 12PM - 4PM Saturday is a possibility but Sunday is a joke.
- riordan 16y ago
  I work for the New York Public Library, and believe me, we wish we could be open all day every day. Last year, city budget cuts took the libraries in Queens and Brooklyn from 6 day service to 5, and we managed to keep NYPL open 6 days, but with reduced hours. That said, there's a lot of people who freelance out of our libraries, and as strange as it sounds, one guy launched his hedge fund out of our business library (we have a few free Bloomberg terminals).
b3b0p 16y ago
For the introverted moonlighting hacker who doesn't get out much except for the coffee shop, libraries are great for getting a ton of stuff done. However, for social interaction and meeting people once in a while the coffee shop is a good change and/or alternative. Taking breaks more often works and being strict with your time management works well, but you have to be strict when your in the coffee ship from my experience. Meet lots of new interesting people too. I like both, it will depend on my mood too. I say use both if you can. Where I live the coffee shop (not a big chain), is much more convenient though and mostly filled with students from the local university.
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freddier 16y ago
I tried, I honestly tried. The result was they have really uncomfortable chairs and the bandwidth is really bad. The silence and concentration is good but I have a headset anyway. The chairs are not really a deal breaker, but the bandwidth totally is.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Yep. The big take-away from this thread and the related one linked above is that libraries vary a lot, and you'll have to try yours out to see how it works.
eduardo_f 16y ago
That's how we got started. Our university let us book private rooms for 2 hours in a row, so we reserved 6 hours every day (we're 3). We did that for 3 months. The library manager thought we were doing some class project and helped us get a good room every day :)
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tarellel 16y ago
I prefer to find a nice quite place at the local college (which I graduated from years ago). Its got highspeed and unrestricted internet, since its a learning environment its generally distraction free and usually somewhat quite. And no one frowns at you if you've spread paperwork, plans, books, a laptop, etc. all over a desk or table. And I for one seem to be highly productive doing work in a learning environment.
nhangen 16y ago
This debate is exactly why I'm looking at co-working. I've yet to try it, but the local shop (ideafield Tampa) is only $99/month + a $25 one-time desk fee. That's not bad.
p90x 16y ago
Don't go to the library. I don't want people taking my seat.
tylerrooney 16y ago
I wondered this as well when I lived in Seattle. The public library system in that city is phenomenal. Many of the small branches have nice modern designs and you can always go to the Central Library which has tons of desk space, power outlets, and window seating. Internet access wasn't blazing but I never had issue with blocked ports nor was it ever "too slow to do work". Not sure about all the branches but the Capitol Hill branch has a decent sized meeting room which a monthly Tech Startup meetup used to use (though that was 3 years ago now).
deleted 16y ago
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neworbit 16y ago
Combine the two and work at your local Barnes and Noble - they often have a coffee shop and areas for you to spread out and read/work/etc
kadavy 16y ago
I did some work at the main branch of the Chicago Public Library yesterday. It was okay, but full of homeless people and not really all that quiet. The Lincoln Park Whole Foods is my new favorite spot. I work all afternoon, have a really healthy dinner, then do some writing over a wine flight.
sabat 16y ago
My local branch of the SF Peninsula library (Redwood Shores if you have to know) has a cafe with wifi and plenty of wall sockets. Nice place to work. As others noted, hacker work spaces are also good.
sgt 16y ago
This may seem radical but... how about working in an actual office? You can get your own office. Room to spread out, no noise. You can still go out to Starbucks in your break, to get that vibe feeling.
- jordan0day 16y ago
  Libraries don't charge thousands of dollars per month to rent your workspace, that's certainly one reason.
DanLar75 16y ago
I personally did this for over a year (Springfield, Missouri) in our kickass library downtown. Great coffee shop nearby, quiet, plenty of books (doh) and magazines to read as break entertainment and just fantastic.
socialized 16y ago
This holiday season I was in State College, PA and the local Schlow Library was a great place to work and much quieter and more comfortable than the coffee shop. - http://www.schlowlibrary.org/ http://www.schlowlibrary.org/ - Since then I try to find a library when I am on the road.
motters 16y ago
That's ok provided that you have a local library. In the UK at present there is a concerted campaign on behalf of the government and local councils to shut libraries down.
- bnastic 16y ago
  And just at the time when I discovered a nice comic books selection at my local library (Wimbledon), for when you're "working".
hyperbuddha 16y ago
May I recommend coworking. It's the best of the library and Starbucks with the added bonus of great networking opportunities.
pdeva1 16y ago
or you could just work at home...
joelrunyon 16y ago
Stay at Starbucks. I'll take the Library & keep it to myself.
trevorturk 16y ago
I've been working from the British Library in London lately, and it's been great. If you're working at a library, though, please do consider making a donation. Sure it's free, but...
marknutter 16y ago
Libraries are terrible for one reason: the hours are terrible. End of story.
nir 16y ago
I find that one of the most productive places for me are hotel rooms. For some reason I seem to get a lot of work done in a hotel room in a foreign country. If you need to make a living while working on your project, a Sales Engineer type role that has you traveling a lot (trains/planes aren't bad for concentrating as well) is in my experience a great way to do that.
localhost3000 16y ago
Boston public is a fantastic place to be productive. Beautiful structure. People are very respectful of the 'this is a library, stfu' rule, free wifi, and in the summer they host live music in the courtyard. One of the most laid back and under-estimated places in the entire city.
- mjhoy 16y ago
  I work often at the Bates Hall. Spacious, beautiful tables, respectful atmosphere -- even when crowded it's remarkably quiet. The Johnson building is much less appealing.
thesash 16y ago
I have the same problem today that I had back in college- no caffeine at the library. I love working at the library, especially university libraries, but I need a steady stream of caffeine in order to do my best work. If they had a coffee maker at the UCLA library, I'd be sold.
mkramlich 16y ago
good article! more accurate to say that libraries are different, better in some ways, worse in others. take advantage of this fact.
d5tryr 16y ago
I work at a large public library that actively encourages work of all kinds within. Free wifi, power points for recharging laptops (indoors and in the gardens surrounding), free bookable meeting rooms, designated quiet and non-quiet areas, a cafe, and even a recording studio. Libraries are torch bearers of civilisation, and in an age when Alexandria has been reborn in an ethereal form, they are devoted to sustaining culture and knowledge in whatever manner is required.
justinph 16y ago
The internet at the Minneapolis Public Libraries block port 22 and filter the internet. No looking at Flickr for you! The Minneapolis Public Library merged with the county a year ago, and I'm not sure if the policy changed.
akgerber 16y ago
Libraries are also available just about everywhere in the US. I was bike touring this summer and was doing a little freelancing on my netbook. I could stop in a good library in just about any town of 500+ (and definitely a county seat) and pick up wifi & charge everything in a power outlet.
sudonim 16y ago
A few years ago when I was trying to start something in Boston I was working in the Public Library but ran into the same problem with the homeless. I wrote about it a little tongue-in-cheek. I was younger and maybe a little looser with my words: http://topstartup.com/2007/04/30/the-homeless-problem-at-the-boston-public-library/ http://topstartup.com/2007/04/30/the-homeless-problem-at-the... It was later picked up by the Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/06/15/free_to_all/ http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008...
deepGem 16y ago
Fully agree. While I was in Hillsboro - a tiny town in Oregon, the public library was my study abode. A sprawling campus with a lake and a lush greenery all around. Floor to ceiling glass windows. The place was a heaven to study. I have sat there all day sometimes. They served good coffee as well. So technically, it was Starbucks sans distractions (both in terms of coffee and cute girls). :).
JacobIrwin 16y ago
I'm going to take this advice. The math alone tell me I could afford 2-5 new startups a year with the money I waste on the impulse purchases of food/drinks.
dfox 16y ago
I actually like to work in establishment that is weird amalgamation of coffeshop and rock club. During normal day hours it is almost empty and distraction free, but you can distract yourself if you want to.

330 points by apress 16y ago

Well, actually i did work at the library, but i changed for one reason to my local coffeeplace: taking and making calls. Thats the one reason i've left the library. I tried a starbucks for working but he is right, the tables are not big enough etc, so i actually went to a local coffeeshop and talked to the owner about me liking to work at his place. I made a deal with him, i did all the quick-wins of online advertisement for him, (it's in germany so: qype, facebook, twitter, simple page with a fair amount of seo). For this i got my special table, big enough for everything i would ever need(i could easily place 2 macbooks + papers on it) + a coffee and bagle flatrate for a year. I think we both made a good deal.

Gormo 16y ago
I wonder if there's a market for a coffee shop that has small, private office spaces available, perhaps available for free or for an hourly rent. These might be the size of a typical restaurant booth (or a bit larger), but would be enclosed spaces that allow you to block out noise and distractions. It wouldn't even need to be a coffee shop; maybe something like a capsule hotel for workspaces.
- tptacek 16y ago
  No. A bunch of people tried that over the last couple years in Chicago; all of them went bust. There are too many viable alternatives to "rental cubby" to charge enough. And coffee shops of all forms are almost sure-fire money losers.
  - jeromec 16y ago
    And coffee shops of all forms are almost sure-fire money losers. I'd never heard that before. Is Starbucks an exception? Does their volume make the difference?
    - krakensden 16y ago
      I'd bet it has to do with space, if you're in the rental business, you need more of it- and it's expensive. If you're Starbucks, you do your feasibility calculations without assuming you'll get worker-cubby rental money.
    - forgotAgain 16y ago
      It requires management as well. A nearby, locally owned, not a chain, shop went bust recently. There wasn't a professional manager there covering when the owner was absent. Things went downhill quickly.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      For any piece of real estate that is ideal as a coffee shop setting, one of Starbucks, Peets, Caribou, or Seattle's Best is bound to be the top bidder. The exceptions to this rule are dense metro areas where virtually every corner retail space is an ideal coffee shop location; the problem with this exception is that these spots are spectacularly expensive and serve markets already saturated with coffee shops.
  - neild 16y ago
    Coffee shops are pretty much the opposite of sure-fire money losers. This article is a few years old, but: The failure rate for new coffeehouses is a mere 10 percent, according to the market research firm Mintel, which means the vast majority of cafes stay afloat no matter where Starbucks drops its stores. Compare that to the restaurant business, where failure is the norm. - http://www.slate.com/id/2180301/pagenum/all/#page_start http://www.slate.com/id/2180301/pagenum/all/#page_start There's a reason you can find coffee shops--both franchised and independent--everywhere you go. Selling $.16 of coffee for $4 is quite profitable!
    - tptacek 16y ago
      I see your Slate article quoting a market research report with another Slate article from someone who actually built a coffee shop, and raise you with a question and an observation. First, the article: http://www.slate.com/id/2132576/ http://www.slate.com/id/2132576/ Second, the question: does that "10% failure rate" stat include Starbucks, Seattle's Best, Caribou, Peets, or Tully's? The rest of Mintel's stats do. Finally, the observation: the margin on coffee beans doesn't determine the margin of a coffee house. Coffee beans aren't the dominant expense of a coffee house. Wages, followed by rent, are instead. You'll like that Slate article; it has math, and everything.
      - neild 16y ago
        I remember reading the Slate article you're citing when it first came out. It's a fairly amusing one, which can be summarized as: "Wealthy person without a lick of business sense opens the 'café' of his dreams, declines to do any work himself, and goes out of business." It's entirely irrelevant to the economics of the average coffee shop. First off, it's not clear to me whether the establishment the author opened was a coffee shop or a restaurant. The subtitle says "coffee shop", but the article then talks about finding someone to "whip up pretty crepes". I recognize that the dividing line between restaurant and coffee shop can be a bit fuzzy on occasion, but it's there and relevant. Most restaurants fail. The really notable part of the article comes at the end, however: "There was, of course, one way to make the cafe viable: It was written into the Golden Rule itself. My wife Lily and I could work there, full-time, save on the payroll, and gerrymander the rest of the budget to allow for lower sales." Yes, Mr. Michael Idov, you could have done that. You should have done that, from the start. That's what small business owners do: They work. That's what your competitors were doing. The goal may be to eventually make enough money to hire people to do all the work, but that's not where you start. You start by busting your ass. That's the story of a dilettante who opened a restaurant as a fashion statement and went the way of all such fools. Anyway, back to coffee shops. I don't know if Mintel's stats include the chains. They probably do. You might note, however, that the article I referenced is entirely dedicated to the proposition that Starbucks's presence in the market has been good for small, independently-owned coffee shops. Furthermore, even if we assume that no chain stores fail at all, a 10% industry failure rate would still have independent coffee shops doing pretty well. (Back of the envelope calculation: 14,000 independent coffee houses in the US in 2005, 11,000 Starbucks in the US in 2010, so let's say indies are only 25% of the total. If 10% of the total fail and all failures are indies, then 40% of indies fail. 60% success rate isn't bad for small businesses.) And, finally, you're right that the margin on coffee beans doesn't determine the margin of a coffee house. That's what happens when your cost of goods is effectively zero, and I assure you that any restaurant or retail outlet would love for their margin to be solely determined by wages and rent.
- eavc 16y ago
  At that point, you might as well find co-working space with decent coffee.
  - rue 16y ago
    Sadly there isn't a single co-working space in this city. Starting one doesn't sound like a viable business plan either.
- carbon8 16y ago
  Basically what you are describing is a coworking space. Coworking spaces are great, but from the perspective of an operator (I recently opened one) it's not a business to go into if you are looking to make money with it. Rent can only be so cheap (and in the US the commercial real estate market is already picking up again), you only have so much space and people are only willing to pay a certain amount. It's also logistically more difficult to manage and monitor an hourly pricing structure than one that's per visit/day/week/month and those longer periods require larger lump sums then some people are willing to pay. Coffee shops, which are more profitable but also not usually a huge money makers, can make money from walk-ins and, due to the lower upfront prices, require less commitment from each customer. There are a few hybrid coffee shop/coworking spaces, but it's unclear how viable the model actually is. Commercial espresso machines are very expensive ($10K-$15K+), barista salaries are an additional expense and you need to balance serving people who walk in with the people who are on the coworking side. Also, if you have things like enclosed booths that means you have to fit in fewer people per square ft. So, there's often a market there, but the economics are such that it's hard to make it very profitable, certainly much harder than many other businesses. Still, just so this doesn't sound completely pessimistic, it's not much work to maintain a straight coworking space (not much more than a regular office), it's entirely possible to make enough money to offset the work you put into it and there is a lot of value that extends beyond the immediate financial compensation.

T_S_ 16y ago

Or a hacker space. Lots of like minded people to share ideas with, help, and be helped by. My favorite is Hacker Dojo in Mountain View. What's yours?

famousactress 16y ago

Good reminder to finally go try this... but honestly, it is the phone usage that's worried me. I hop on Skype many times a day, and the overall noise-floor at a coffee shop makes it possible to do so without bothering anyone (I use earbuds, so hearing isn't generally an issue). I think our library has a nice outdoor area though.. might be okay to take calls out there.

anthonycerra 16y ago

Working in a library is second to none, but the advantage Starbucks has over the library is the late closing. University library hours are one thing, but regular ol' public libraries close too early.

pavel_lishin 16y ago
And open too late.
- kordless 16y ago
  And don't let you have coffee.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    That sucks; you can have coffee in the Chicago and Oak Park libraries.
    - levesque 16y ago
      The library in Quebec city won't even let you have a bottle of water open on your table, forget coffee.
  - rdouble 16y ago
    The Minneapolis Public Library has a coffee shop inside.
  - silentbicycle 16y ago
    This varies tremendously from location to location. Covered coffee mugs are often allowed.
u48998 16y ago
Not only they open late and closed early, they are not a good alternative for consistent work particularly if you require your phones to be on. However, libraries are generally better and spacious than coffee shops. mcDonalds is another alternative if you find chairs that are not hard.

alexophile 16y ago

In my (biased, but well-founded) experience, it comes down to a question of whether I'd rather be distracted by a cute girl or an old man getting reprimanded for looking at dirty pictures. [bg: I really like libraries - worked at one in the suburbs in high school and have since moved to the city, which exaggerated the weird bits] One thing that's worth noting: if you're on a college campus, a great place to find some legit quiet time is in departmental libraries, especially the social sciences.

rbanffy 16y ago
A couple years back, I decided to pay a visit to the campus library during the FISL (international free-software forum) that happens every year in Porto Alegre, Brazil on the PUC (pontifical catholic university) campus. I needed to grab some articles from CACM and their library has full access to the ACM online library, as well as decent wireless, something no tech event quite manages to have. Porto Alegre is notorious for having a disproportionate number of cute girls. I was on the Engineering floor and, even there, I got distracted several times by them. So, no, it's not every library that's cute-girl-free. Unfortunately, they don't serve coffee.
- Roritharr 16y ago
  Sounds like a good place to go study abroad...
  - ramchip 16y ago
    You'll have to refrain these thoughts. It's a catholic campus ;)
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      The good thing with catholicism is that there is always forgiveness for those who repent.
      - bobbyi 16y ago

siculars 16y ago

++. I don't know why more people don't do this. The library is a great place to work - for free - and it comes with built in offline distractions for when you need to step away from a problem. I used to spend a lot of time at Columbia University's Butler library. Libraries are also a great place to get internet access. I spent a lot of time in local libraries while traveling around New Zealand.

waqf 16y ago
The main branch of the public library in Christchurch explicitly offers free wifi even when it's closed ... that's hard to beat (if you can find anywhere to sit).
- regomodo 16y ago
  It's capped to ~few hundred meg. At least when I was there for ~2 months a couple years back. It's really easy to get around though. About the "if you can find anywhere to sit". I've never been in a library that was so full. I found that upstairs in the glassed off area to be the best. Got a lot done there. NZ really does have some great libraries. Whangerei, Wellington and Christchurch being examples.

silentbicycle 16y ago

Previous discussion of a similar post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458

Semiapies 16y ago
Nice catch - there's good discussion there, too.
crististm 16y ago
I was having a deja-vu with this post...

cowmixtoo 16y ago

Unfortunately, I echo many of the reservations of working at my local public library: can't make calls, horrible hours of operation, etc. I'll add one more thing: horrible network filtering.

tptacek 16y ago
Where do you people live? Our libraries open early in the morning and close at 9PM.

pavel_lishin 16y ago

Starbucks still charges for WiFi? I thought they did away with that. In any case, I always got around it by pretending to be an iPhone. :)

kordless 16y ago
It's free at the Starbucks where I live.
corin_ 16y ago
In the UK it's free if you have a registered Starbucks card (which doesn't cost anything).
BarkMore 16y ago
WiFi has been free at Starbucks in the USA since July 2010. Before that, a registered Starbucks card got you free WiFi.
pkchen 16y ago
It's free at all Starbucks now. Makes for a much laggier experience though, since everyone is up on that bandwidth

peregrine 16y ago

This is spectacular for small towns or smaller regional libraries but have you ever been to a large city library? It brings out some of the weirdest people. Collegiate libraries in my experience are nice, but can get crowded at times.

tptacek 16y ago
I spent the first year of my company working out of a big city library. It worked great. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758458

krschmidt 16y ago

Internet speed can also be an issue, for good or bad. I'll hit the coffee shop if I'm syncing with a server regularly or know I'll be researching a bunch, but the I'll hit the library if I want the internet to feel like dial-up.

micah63 16y ago
exactly, the library is great and super quiet, but I was there today and the internet was horrendous...

dhyasama 16y ago

I work out the Columbia University libraries, although I'm not a student. For $500/year you can become a Friend of the Libraries and have access to all the libraries. It's a bargain if you consider how much you would spend at a coffee shop. Also, like the article says, fewer distractions and much more space.

Tycho 16y ago
Gosh... I guess i'm pretty lucky to live near my former Uni which only charges £40 yearly for former students. There's also a nice local council one nearby with free wifi, free membership for taxpayers. Another advantage is all the money you can save on heating bills. Starbucks is outrageously expensive though - some cafés are much cheaper, and nicer.
- dhyasama 16y ago
  I grew up in Maine and went to UMaine. The library there is open to the public. I'm in New York now and due to city budget cuts most public library branches don't open until 11AM which doesn't work for my schedule. Columbia is within walking distance of my apartment and $42/month is a screaming bargain since I'm so much more productive there than at a cafe.
wildmXranat 16y ago
Yes, this is a great idea. I paid a much smaller fee of $60 to have access to Mississauga libraries as an out of the city resident. My biggest question is : does the fee include access to library wifi, but at $500, it's still rather steep.
- dhyasama 16y ago
  It does include wifi as well as reading privileges, but not lending.
blackguardx 16y ago
I'm surprised they offer such a service. The Columbia U. library is notorious for being stingy with access. As a prospective grad student visiting the campus, they told me that I could have a once-time free pass and that if I ever wanted to get in again at some point during the rest of my life, I would have to become a student. They even refused admittance to a friend of mine who was philosophy PhD student at U Penn. She was surprised because it is pretty normal to go to other campus libraries to do research for dissertations.

psb 16y ago

My bank has a little lobby with a coffee machine where I and a couple others hang out and work. I like to stand up while I work and they have a couple taller tables that work nicely for me.

Luc 16y ago
Are they happy with this, or have they just not noticed? I'd feel bad about using another business's resources unless they explicitly allow it.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Well, it's his bank, so the lobby really is for his use to some degree. Also, I'd have to think they'd pay attention to who hangs out in their lobby repeatedly and for any length of time, if only for security reasons. (Or I'd have to hope.) As long as he's a customer and doesn't seem to pose a problem, they probably don't mind. (And bankers would do something if they perceived a problem, if only by having the security guard hang out very close to the people in question.) If they haven't noticed that a few people work in the lobby, then those people really must not be impinging on anyone there.
bigwally 16y ago
Sounds like Hetty Green. She made millions working from a bank counter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green#Miser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green#Miser

erikpukinskis 16y ago

I've tried to work at libraries in the past, but more often than not they block port 22, which means no workie for me. Yes, I could set up a proxy server on EC2 or something. Or I could go to a coffee shop.

edw519 16y ago

Maybe we're lucky in Pittsburgh, but we have the best of both worlds at the main branch of the Carnegie Library. You can take a tour of where I work 2 or 3 days per week: http://www.clpgh.org/locations/main/tours/virtualtour/ http://www.clpgh.org/locations/main/tours/virtualtour/ It's fantastic. It was built by Andrew Carnegie in 1895 and most of it is original. I get inspiration from the 20 foot ceilings and hand made ornamentation everywhere you look. They simply don't build things like this any more. There are quiet reading rooms, large tables, plenty of light, and oh yeah, a Crazy Mocha coffee shop in the building. I use a cell phone dongle on my laptop and most people know that email is my preferred communication method. If I need a break, I can look at priceless artifacts in the Carnegie museum through the windows in the open stacks. Or just get the world's most disgusting hot dog at the "O" a block away. If I need inspiration, that'll either make me or break me. One of these days, I'd like to make the claim that some incredible technology of the 21st century was conceived in an edifice borne out of the some of the best technology of the 19th century. "My aspirations take a higher flight. Mine be it to have contributed to the enlightenment and the joys of the mind, to the things of the spirit, to all that tends to bring into the lives of the toilers of Pittsburgh sweetness and light. I hold this the noblest possible use of wealth." - Andrew Carnegie at the Dedication of Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh, November 5, 1895.

infocaptor 16y ago
vow, another pittsburgher. I once used the North hills library and it was really productive. Will have to check out the moon library.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  There's a bunch of us around here.
  - infocaptor 16y ago
    Hey Steve, you got pretty cool website. Was really tempted to enter a password at the bottom :)

aplusbi 16y ago

I have occasionally brought my laptop to the library near my office to work. However if I'm at home and want to head out, the nearest coffee shop is 4 blocks away and the nearest library is 20.

ConceptDog 16y ago

I'll echo the same as most other posters: Internet is the limiting factor. I love working there. No distractions is a great way to shut out the world and focus. My local libraries limited internet access to an hour a day. If 3g was cheaper in Canada, I'd just man up and get a stick or tether to my cell, but I'd need a line of credit to make that happen.

ben1040 16y ago

Best thing I've ever done. I work for a university and happen to live a few blocks away, so I will go to their library to work on my side projects. They close at 2AM and I've found a nice room there where undergrads don't seem to want to wander, so it's a perfect place to work. It's quiet, and I've been conditioned from years of schooling that when I'm sitting at a table at the library, I ought to be working and not slacking. And, I can access journals, news archives, Safari/O'Reilly books, and all sorts of other useful resources while on the library wireless network. I can still even get a cup of coffee at the coffee shop in the library for cheaper than Starbucks, and it comes right out of my paycheck.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

...while they still exist.

wave 16y ago

It doesn't have to be either Starbucks or a library. It can be both.

levesque 16y ago
I would definitely go to a library that serves lattes and pastry ;)
Semiapies 16y ago
A pool of places is probably a good idea for third-place workers. Renovations, etc. can make any particular library or cafe unavailable.

SwellJoe 16y ago

I have a 3G/4G modem with unlimited use (from Clear), and no longer consider WiFi availability as an important part of the decision making process of where to work. I'm currently camped in the desert in Southern California, 35 miles from the nearest "big" city (Brawley, which is not very big, but it does have a Walmart). But, I never have been able to work in coffee shops. I can't think long enough with all the distractions to do anything of real value. Email, sure. Browsing reddit, no problem. But, actual work? No way. Library would probably work, though I've only tried it a few times when I was in Canada and didn't have 3G; it didn't work very well, as the Internet was always too slow or broken.

code_duck 16y ago
In the past I have lived or died by Starbucks and Caribou - driving around Omaha or some random town in Colorado trying to find public internet access. Now that I have a phone with national internet access, truly mobile internet is going to completely change how I work when I travel. The rest stops with wifi have been fun finds in the past. There's one 50 miles west of Omaha for instance with decent wireless internet - I got a lot of odd looks sitting at a picnic table with my Macbook doing emails for two hours. Now, I can do that anywhere!
- SwellJoe 16y ago
  My Kindle was priceless in Canada. It has free 3G web browsing, even internationally...so, when I was stopping for the night, I'd do a search for "free wifi (city-name)", and punch the resulting address into the GPS. The Kindle browser is completely unusable for normal browsing (it's like browsing from 1994), but it's acceptable for that one query. I've found that rest stops with WiFi are rarely in working condition. I'm not sure why it's so hard for public hotspots to be kept operational, but apparently it is, as I'd say 75% of the ones at unattended locations are simply not working. I've learned to never expect WiFi to work, even if it is advertised on the sign or on the website or whatever. The same is true of campgrounds, 80% of which claim to have WiFi but only about 40% of which actually have usable speed and reliability. I'm tempted, being a nerd, to just go around fixing campground networks, free of charge. But, usually, I just use my 3G/4G modem. I'm getting 500kbps-1Mbps here in the desert, which is completely usable.

eavc 16y ago

Great point. For the less mature, I think the library helps strip away the pretense a bit too. Sipping lattes and being on Twitter seem to go together. Being at the library and doing real work seem to go together too.

acconrad 16y ago

This post is neglecting to list the most obvious reason of all to work at the library - a wealth of reference information (in...gasp!...something you can hold and read in any light!)

bricestacey 16y ago

Many academic libraries are open to the public and have better accommodations. I live in Boston so it's academic library heaven.

cmontgomeryb 16y ago
I still go to my University library. It was a fantastic place to work when I was there, and has only gotten better. There's a nice atmosphere - people are generally working, but having a laugh and enjoying being together too. There's no music but my own headphones, and the WiFi is free. I'm surrounded by books on any subject I may need through the day. My local library however, is drab, too quiet and I feel out of place with my lap top working there. Like I'm being watched for doing something odd. I get more distractions as the noise level is less consistent.

shortlived 16y ago

It sounds like people need to open more hacker work spaces.

dlevine 16y ago

I've tried working in the library on a number of occasions. The one bad thing I've discovered is that the WIFI sucks at pretty much every public library I've worked at. And I think that's a sample size of 4 or 5 libraries. I live almost right next to the main branch of the San Francisco Public Library, and every time I've gone there to work, I've left after a while because the Internet was too slow or didn't work quite right. So if I want to get any coding done, and need access to the Internet, I have found the library to be a pretty bad place. If I'm just doing some quiet reading, the library can be great.

ja27 16y ago
I've worked from two libraries near my house quite a bit as well as a couple sandwich shops. (I can't stand the smell of burning coffee.) The sandwich shops are less distracting to me. All the conversations and background noise blend together for me. I try to avoid rush times and busy days so I'm not tying up a table when they need them. The libraries are ok but have some problems. Neither really get many homeless guys but both have a lot of kids, especially in the afternoon. With big open floorplans, that's more noise than I can ignore. The availability of books sometimes distracts me, but to be honest, the book collections are now so old and unimpressive that it's not a big deal. The other problem is that the libraries block a number of things on their network, like most webmail, instant messengers, and most VPNs. I'm still able to use https for GMail and my work tunnel so I can work there, but it seems unnecessarily restrictive.
wtn 16y ago
Yes, SFPL wireless network internet is terrible.

neild 16y ago

I like the distractions of a good coffee shop. I like being someplace with music playing and people wandering through. It provides engagement for the parts of my brain I don't use when working. My favorite coffee shops are loud enough that I'm not distracted by other people's conversations. Either the music is loud enough to drown them out, or enough people are talking at once that it all blends into a meaningless susurration. A place which is too quiet--like most libraries, actually--amplifies distractions.

sfphotoarts 16y ago

"one time a woman asked me to troubleshoot her connectivity issues. Sorry, lady, but I’m trying to work here." I stopped reading at that point.

SystemOut 16y ago

I like the library over Starbucks (or other coffee shops) but our local county libraries aren't open 7 days a week anymore due to budget cuts. I'll have to try the local community college library though -- I hadn't really considered it in the past.

noodle 16y ago

love the idea, in theory. in practice, i'd have to drive to library, but can walk to any number of coffee shops or book stores instead. much easier to execute for a student.

krosaen 16y ago

we conduct our monthly usability studies at the library in two adjacent study rooms. quiet and no bullshit internet, skype screen sharing is no problem :)

stevejalim 16y ago

Before I got a proper office, I'd have loved to have worked at my local library when I needed a break from working in the house. Only problem: the library (like most UK ones, I imagine) won't let members of the public plug in laptops for power. :o(

abyssknight 16y ago

My wife actually works at and for the library. Trust me when I say, you definitely don't want to work there. The amount of riff raff that hangs around that joint is just not worth it. People get trespassed, throw fits, steal DVDs, look at all manner of inappropriate material, and even straight up make scenes. The bathrooms are often vandalized with bodily excrement and the couches, as comfy as they may be, are also covered in the same if the cleaners haven't come that day. There are plenty of other coworking spaces you could join or support. Do yourself a favor, check them out.

Semiapies 16y ago
That'll vary a lot by library and surrounding community. I've been in central libraries that were clean and didn't have anything worse happening than children being told to shush. It'd probably worth visiting and checking one's local library out if you need a remote place to work. Spend a couple of hours - leisurely find some books, read a magazine or two - and see whether you're comfortable there. If so, then try coming in with your laptop.
- Periodic 16y ago
  University libraries are generally well kept. They are better funded than the public libraries, and (often) being private property they have more discretion as to who they can throw out. Unfortunately the advent of magnetized key cards seems to be resulting in an increase in the number of libraries that require you to "swipe in". However, you'll have to find the quiet corners because roudy college kids can make the main areas distracting.

timmins 16y ago

I would agree with working at library. But I haven't been able to overcome one notable issue: Hours: Saturday 10AM - 5PM Sunday 12PM - 4PM Saturday is a possibility but Sunday is a joke.

riordan 16y ago
I work for the New York Public Library, and believe me, we wish we could be open all day every day. Last year, city budget cuts took the libraries in Queens and Brooklyn from 6 day service to 5, and we managed to keep NYPL open 6 days, but with reduced hours. That said, there's a lot of people who freelance out of our libraries, and as strange as it sounds, one guy launched his hedge fund out of our business library (we have a few free Bloomberg terminals).

b3b0p 16y ago

For the introverted moonlighting hacker who doesn't get out much except for the coffee shop, libraries are great for getting a ton of stuff done. However, for social interaction and meeting people once in a while the coffee shop is a good change and/or alternative. Taking breaks more often works and being strict with your time management works well, but you have to be strict when your in the coffee ship from my experience. Meet lots of new interesting people too. I like both, it will depend on my mood too. I say use both if you can. Where I live the coffee shop (not a big chain), is much more convenient though and mostly filled with students from the local university.

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freddier 16y ago

I tried, I honestly tried. The result was they have really uncomfortable chairs and the bandwidth is really bad. The silence and concentration is good but I have a headset anyway. The chairs are not really a deal breaker, but the bandwidth totally is.

Semiapies 16y ago
Yep. The big take-away from this thread and the related one linked above is that libraries vary a lot, and you'll have to try yours out to see how it works.

eduardo_f 16y ago

That's how we got started. Our university let us book private rooms for 2 hours in a row, so we reserved 6 hours every day (we're 3). We did that for 3 months. The library manager thought we were doing some class project and helped us get a good room every day :)

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tarellel 16y ago

I prefer to find a nice quite place at the local college (which I graduated from years ago). Its got highspeed and unrestricted internet, since its a learning environment its generally distraction free and usually somewhat quite. And no one frowns at you if you've spread paperwork, plans, books, a laptop, etc. all over a desk or table. And I for one seem to be highly productive doing work in a learning environment.

nhangen 16y ago

This debate is exactly why I'm looking at co-working. I've yet to try it, but the local shop (ideafield Tampa) is only $99/month + a $25 one-time desk fee. That's not bad.

p90x 16y ago

Don't go to the library. I don't want people taking my seat.

tylerrooney 16y ago

I wondered this as well when I lived in Seattle. The public library system in that city is phenomenal. Many of the small branches have nice modern designs and you can always go to the Central Library which has tons of desk space, power outlets, and window seating. Internet access wasn't blazing but I never had issue with blocked ports nor was it ever "too slow to do work". Not sure about all the branches but the Capitol Hill branch has a decent sized meeting room which a monthly Tech Startup meetup used to use (though that was 3 years ago now).

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neworbit 16y ago

Combine the two and work at your local Barnes and Noble - they often have a coffee shop and areas for you to spread out and read/work/etc

kadavy 16y ago

I did some work at the main branch of the Chicago Public Library yesterday. It was okay, but full of homeless people and not really all that quiet. The Lincoln Park Whole Foods is my new favorite spot. I work all afternoon, have a really healthy dinner, then do some writing over a wine flight.

sabat 16y ago

My local branch of the SF Peninsula library (Redwood Shores if you have to know) has a cafe with wifi and plenty of wall sockets. Nice place to work. As others noted, hacker work spaces are also good.

sgt 16y ago

This may seem radical but... how about working in an actual office? You can get your own office. Room to spread out, no noise. You can still go out to Starbucks in your break, to get that vibe feeling.

jordan0day 16y ago
Libraries don't charge thousands of dollars per month to rent your workspace, that's certainly one reason.

DanLar75 16y ago

I personally did this for over a year (Springfield, Missouri) in our kickass library downtown. Great coffee shop nearby, quiet, plenty of books (doh) and magazines to read as break entertainment and just fantastic.

socialized 16y ago

This holiday season I was in State College, PA and the local Schlow Library was a great place to work and much quieter and more comfortable than the coffee shop. - http://www.schlowlibrary.org/ http://www.schlowlibrary.org/ - Since then I try to find a library when I am on the road.

motters 16y ago

That's ok provided that you have a local library. In the UK at present there is a concerted campaign on behalf of the government and local councils to shut libraries down.

bnastic 16y ago
And just at the time when I discovered a nice comic books selection at my local library (Wimbledon), for when you're "working".

hyperbuddha 16y ago

May I recommend coworking. It's the best of the library and Starbucks with the added bonus of great networking opportunities.

pdeva1 16y ago

or you could just work at home...

joelrunyon 16y ago

Stay at Starbucks. I'll take the Library & keep it to myself.

trevorturk 16y ago

I've been working from the British Library in London lately, and it's been great. If you're working at a library, though, please do consider making a donation. Sure it's free, but...

marknutter 16y ago

Libraries are terrible for one reason: the hours are terrible. End of story.

nir 16y ago

I find that one of the most productive places for me are hotel rooms. For some reason I seem to get a lot of work done in a hotel room in a foreign country. If you need to make a living while working on your project, a Sales Engineer type role that has you traveling a lot (trains/planes aren't bad for concentrating as well) is in my experience a great way to do that.

localhost3000 16y ago

Boston public is a fantastic place to be productive. Beautiful structure. People are very respectful of the 'this is a library, stfu' rule, free wifi, and in the summer they host live music in the courtyard. One of the most laid back and under-estimated places in the entire city.

mjhoy 16y ago
I work often at the Bates Hall. Spacious, beautiful tables, respectful atmosphere -- even when crowded it's remarkably quiet. The Johnson building is much less appealing.

thesash 16y ago

I have the same problem today that I had back in college- no caffeine at the library. I love working at the library, especially university libraries, but I need a steady stream of caffeine in order to do my best work. If they had a coffee maker at the UCLA library, I'd be sold.

mkramlich 16y ago

good article! more accurate to say that libraries are different, better in some ways, worse in others. take advantage of this fact.

d5tryr 16y ago

I work at a large public library that actively encourages work of all kinds within. Free wifi, power points for recharging laptops (indoors and in the gardens surrounding), free bookable meeting rooms, designated quiet and non-quiet areas, a cafe, and even a recording studio. Libraries are torch bearers of civilisation, and in an age when Alexandria has been reborn in an ethereal form, they are devoted to sustaining culture and knowledge in whatever manner is required.

justinph 16y ago

The internet at the Minneapolis Public Libraries block port 22 and filter the internet. No looking at Flickr for you! The Minneapolis Public Library merged with the county a year ago, and I'm not sure if the policy changed.

akgerber 16y ago

Libraries are also available just about everywhere in the US. I was bike touring this summer and was doing a little freelancing on my netbook. I could stop in a good library in just about any town of 500+ (and definitely a county seat) and pick up wifi & charge everything in a power outlet.

sudonim 16y ago

A few years ago when I was trying to start something in Boston I was working in the Public Library but ran into the same problem with the homeless. I wrote about it a little tongue-in-cheek. I was younger and maybe a little looser with my words: http://topstartup.com/2007/04/30/the-homeless-problem-at-the-boston-public-library/ http://topstartup.com/2007/04/30/the-homeless-problem-at-the... It was later picked up by the Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/06/15/free_to_all/ http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008...

deepGem 16y ago

Fully agree. While I was in Hillsboro - a tiny town in Oregon, the public library was my study abode. A sprawling campus with a lake and a lush greenery all around. Floor to ceiling glass windows. The place was a heaven to study. I have sat there all day sometimes. They served good coffee as well. So technically, it was Starbucks sans distractions (both in terms of coffee and cute girls). :).

JacobIrwin 16y ago

I'm going to take this advice. The math alone tell me I could afford 2-5 new startups a year with the money I waste on the impulse purchases of food/drinks.

dfox 16y ago

I actually like to work in establishment that is weird amalgamation of coffeshop and rock club. During normal day hours it is almost empty and distraction free, but you can distract yourself if you want to.