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> All of these problems are easily addressed by using smart switches instead of smart lights. This is so true. I really wonder about all the people installing

> All of these problems are easily addressed by using smart switches instead of smart lights. This is so true. I really wonder about all the people installing these WiFi enabled light bulbs into lamps that end up being connected to some regular dumb switch next to the door in the wall...what's your rationale for putting the "smarts" in the bulb and not the switch, the device whose sole purpose has always been to stop and start power distribution to a dumb bulb that just glows when it gets powered? The failure mode of augmented switches, if the smart control stuff for some reason doesn't work or is not accessible, is super obvious and simple: they just revert to being a switch on the wall. And it's not just about that, it's also often just more convenient to enable the light the old-fashioned way by touching a rectangle when entering a room. I'm very satisfied with my light setup, allowing control of the living room lights via programmed conditions as well as by a Logitech Harmony remote. But most other members of my family tend to ignore these and just like to use the switch. Sometimes I do as well, like when entering or exiting the room, but I wouldn't want to miss the additional remote control options. With the smarts in the switch (and the home control server behind it wiring it all together), we're all satisfied.

dasil003 7y ago
"I like an escalator because an escalator can never break, it can only become stairs" –Mitch Hedberg
- waste_monk 7y ago
  I imagine they haven't seen the various videos and news articles about escalator failures where people get pulled into the machinery and shredded alive. Particularly in China, there was a rash of news about it after that video came out where the woman narrowly managed to push her child to safety before being dragged feet first into the machinery when the safety grate failed. You essentially get turned into (raw) human pulled pork. Very unpleasant.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    Mitch Hedberg was a comedian who died in 2005 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MITCH+HEDBERG&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MITCH+HEDBERG&t=ffab&ia=web so first he was probably just making a joke, and two he probably didn't see the videos because he died before the ubiquity of YouTube.
Swenrekcah 7y ago
Two things come to mind: 1) Smart switches don’t add colors to your bulbs. 2) Bulbs are a lot easier (or at least less intimidating) to install than switches. Although I do agree that the smart switch sounds smarter than the smart bulb.
dunmalg 7y ago
>what's your rationale for putting the "smarts" in the bulb and not the switch People are afraid of electricity and don't want to replace a switch. Anyone can replace a light bulb though, so it's default solution for the kind of person that doesn't own a screwdriver. It's definitely an inferior approach, but I suppose it fulfills the needs of a certain segment of the market.
- waste_monk 7y ago
  It's not just fear of electricity. Here in Australia you have to be a licensed electrician to perform any works, even to do something like replacing a lightswitch or running cable inside a wall (even running ethernet cable, although there are special low-voltage electrician's licenses for data cabling specialists that aren't as intensive as a "real" electrician's license) - unlicensed electrical work would void your insurance, make it difficult to sell your house (would need to be inspected, remediated and brought up to code if necessary, and signed off on by an appropriately licensed electrician), and could expose you to civil and even criminal liability (if your unlicensed electrical work harmed someone). I'm not a licensed electrician, so if I wanted to upgrade my house to smart switches I'd have to get someone in to do it. For most people here it's a lot easier to just screw in a bulb.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  But why not a smart socket (between power socket and bulb or device plug), then? We had those for decades before Philips Hue.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    If you mean wall plug socket, it doesn't work for embedded light fixtures. As for bulb sockets, it's harder to make them small enough that the bulb won't protrude quite a bit, often ruining aesthetics. Plus, combining the two lets you have extra features, light RGB color control.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Most of a lightbulb is empty space. Sure, you'd need a new form factor lightbulb (bulb cover really, for an LED bulb) to be compatible with modular electronics. But those bulbs should be cheap and reusable.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
Ok but when you say: The failure mode of augmented switches, if the smart control stuff for some reason doesn't work or is not accessible, is super obvious and simple: they just revert to being a switch on the wall. I can't help but think the failure mode of smart bulbs is super obvious too, they should just revert to being a bulb, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work that way whenever I hear about them failing.
- Slartie 7y ago
  They should, but it's actually pretty hard to do the following two things at the same time: a) fall back to being a bulb: power off = no light, power on = light b) allow for some kind of control to be possible via the switch, like: power off = no light (that's easy), power on = restore whatever the lamp was doing before (if it was off before it should stay off, if it was on and just switched off via the switch it should turn on immediately) Most customers probably want b) to be a supported feature, because they cannot make that switch next to the door disappear, so people will use that switch and expect the light to "kind of" respond normally to that input. But b) is mutually exclusive with a), which would have to be implemented if you'd like to have the bulb fall back to being a dumb bulb if the wireless stuff doesn't work right (the bulb cannot wait to assess whether there is something wrong with its "smarts", because people expect immediate reaction from their bulbs, not reaction after 30secs of pinging a server and whatnot).
- edejong 7y ago
  Philips Hue reverts to being a switch when controlled with the ‘normal’ switch instead of the controls that we mount right above the old switch. Works like a charm!
saberdancer 7y ago
Some electrical installations, at least in Europe, do not have "null" wired to the switch. Smart switches need both live and null to work.
- tlrobinson 7y ago
  Lutron Caseta smart switches (and a few others) don't require neutral wires (I assume "null" is the same as "neutral")
- dirktheman 7y ago
  There are several smart switches that don't require null wires, Xiami Aqara for instance, or Shelly.
FussyZeus 7y ago
> This is so true. I really wonder about all the people installing these WiFi enabled light bulbs into lamps that end up being connected to some regular dumb switch next to the door in the wall... Personally, for the bulbs that are smart, I simply don't use the switches, save for restarting the smart bulbs (haven't had to yet, though) but the smart stuff I have is smart for a reason: The living room recessed lights are Hue bulbs, and that's so we can change the color on the fly, automatically when watching a movie, and schedule off when we've gone to bed and I've forgotten to turn them off. The bedroom ones turn on automatically when we go to bed, and when we go to sleep, I use my siri shortcut to dim them to almost off completely, but just enough to provide a night light while starting some music we listen to while sleeping. I have a smart light in the basement that turns on at dusk because it gets too dark down there to walk, and turns off when I trigger my bedtime shortcut. I would never advise someone to smart everything in their home, but if you have reasons to add automation or have a desire for enhanced functionality, why not? Do your due diligence, know what you're buying, and know how to hook it up safely. I have a number of IP cameras on my property that are explicitly blocked from the Internet, and are only accessible to my home made DVR. I have all smart devices, where able, on a guest wifi that has no access to my computers or other devices, and has location services disabled. This stuff can be used safely and securely, and frankly the wider community looks ridiculous with the impression being they have a printer from the 90's on their desk, it's the smartest thing in their home, and they keep a loaded gun next to it in case it makes a noise they didn't expect.
anang 7y ago
Beyond what others have mentioned, bulbs give more flexibility. For example floor lamps or ceiling fixtures with multiple lights that can be dimmed/turned off independently. I also think, in terms of cost, an IKEA Trådfri bulb is a compelling alternative to dimmer pucks in the switch.
vineyardmike 7y ago
I have smart bulbs because I mostly use lamps and my apartment building doesn’t let me update the switches.
benhurmarcel 7y ago
> what's your rationale for putting the "smarts" in the bulb and not the switch Then you can control the light intensity and light temperature (or color if you fancy that). With a smart switch it's only on/off.
- matt-attack 7y ago
  It’s pretty common for light switches to incorporate a dimmer. So it’s more the just on/off.

dasil003 7y ago

"I like an escalator because an escalator can never break, it can only become stairs" –Mitch Hedberg

waste_monk 7y ago
I imagine they haven't seen the various videos and news articles about escalator failures where people get pulled into the machinery and shredded alive. Particularly in China, there was a rash of news about it after that video came out where the woman narrowly managed to push her child to safety before being dragged feet first into the machinery when the safety grate failed. You essentially get turned into (raw) human pulled pork. Very unpleasant.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  Mitch Hedberg was a comedian who died in 2005 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MITCH+HEDBERG&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=MITCH+HEDBERG&t=ffab&ia=web so first he was probably just making a joke, and two he probably didn't see the videos because he died before the ubiquity of YouTube.

Swenrekcah 7y ago

Two things come to mind: 1) Smart switches don’t add colors to your bulbs. 2) Bulbs are a lot easier (or at least less intimidating) to install than switches. Although I do agree that the smart switch sounds smarter than the smart bulb.

dunmalg 7y ago

>what's your rationale for putting the "smarts" in the bulb and not the switch People are afraid of electricity and don't want to replace a switch. Anyone can replace a light bulb though, so it's default solution for the kind of person that doesn't own a screwdriver. It's definitely an inferior approach, but I suppose it fulfills the needs of a certain segment of the market.

waste_monk 7y ago
It's not just fear of electricity. Here in Australia you have to be a licensed electrician to perform any works, even to do something like replacing a lightswitch or running cable inside a wall (even running ethernet cable, although there are special low-voltage electrician's licenses for data cabling specialists that aren't as intensive as a "real" electrician's license) - unlicensed electrical work would void your insurance, make it difficult to sell your house (would need to be inspected, remediated and brought up to code if necessary, and signed off on by an appropriately licensed electrician), and could expose you to civil and even criminal liability (if your unlicensed electrical work harmed someone). I'm not a licensed electrician, so if I wanted to upgrade my house to smart switches I'd have to get someone in to do it. For most people here it's a lot easier to just screw in a bulb.
lonelappde 7y ago
But why not a smart socket (between power socket and bulb or device plug), then? We had those for decades before Philips Hue.
- icebraining 7y ago
  If you mean wall plug socket, it doesn't work for embedded light fixtures. As for bulb sockets, it's harder to make them small enough that the bulb won't protrude quite a bit, often ruining aesthetics. Plus, combining the two lets you have extra features, light RGB color control.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Most of a lightbulb is empty space. Sure, you'd need a new form factor lightbulb (bulb cover really, for an LED bulb) to be compatible with modular electronics. But those bulbs should be cheap and reusable.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

Ok but when you say: The failure mode of augmented switches, if the smart control stuff for some reason doesn't work or is not accessible, is super obvious and simple: they just revert to being a switch on the wall. I can't help but think the failure mode of smart bulbs is super obvious too, they should just revert to being a bulb, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work that way whenever I hear about them failing.

Slartie 7y ago
They should, but it's actually pretty hard to do the following two things at the same time: a) fall back to being a bulb: power off = no light, power on = light b) allow for some kind of control to be possible via the switch, like: power off = no light (that's easy), power on = restore whatever the lamp was doing before (if it was off before it should stay off, if it was on and just switched off via the switch it should turn on immediately) Most customers probably want b) to be a supported feature, because they cannot make that switch next to the door disappear, so people will use that switch and expect the light to "kind of" respond normally to that input. But b) is mutually exclusive with a), which would have to be implemented if you'd like to have the bulb fall back to being a dumb bulb if the wireless stuff doesn't work right (the bulb cannot wait to assess whether there is something wrong with its "smarts", because people expect immediate reaction from their bulbs, not reaction after 30secs of pinging a server and whatnot).
edejong 7y ago
Philips Hue reverts to being a switch when controlled with the ‘normal’ switch instead of the controls that we mount right above the old switch. Works like a charm!

saberdancer 7y ago

Some electrical installations, at least in Europe, do not have "null" wired to the switch. Smart switches need both live and null to work.

tlrobinson 7y ago
Lutron Caseta smart switches (and a few others) don't require neutral wires (I assume "null" is the same as "neutral")
dirktheman 7y ago
There are several smart switches that don't require null wires, Xiami Aqara for instance, or Shelly.

FussyZeus 7y ago

> This is so true. I really wonder about all the people installing these WiFi enabled light bulbs into lamps that end up being connected to some regular dumb switch next to the door in the wall... Personally, for the bulbs that are smart, I simply don't use the switches, save for restarting the smart bulbs (haven't had to yet, though) but the smart stuff I have is smart for a reason: The living room recessed lights are Hue bulbs, and that's so we can change the color on the fly, automatically when watching a movie, and schedule off when we've gone to bed and I've forgotten to turn them off. The bedroom ones turn on automatically when we go to bed, and when we go to sleep, I use my siri shortcut to dim them to almost off completely, but just enough to provide a night light while starting some music we listen to while sleeping. I have a smart light in the basement that turns on at dusk because it gets too dark down there to walk, and turns off when I trigger my bedtime shortcut. I would never advise someone to smart everything in their home, but if you have reasons to add automation or have a desire for enhanced functionality, why not? Do your due diligence, know what you're buying, and know how to hook it up safely. I have a number of IP cameras on my property that are explicitly blocked from the Internet, and are only accessible to my home made DVR. I have all smart devices, where able, on a guest wifi that has no access to my computers or other devices, and has location services disabled. This stuff can be used safely and securely, and frankly the wider community looks ridiculous with the impression being they have a printer from the 90's on their desk, it's the smartest thing in their home, and they keep a loaded gun next to it in case it makes a noise they didn't expect.

anang 7y ago

Beyond what others have mentioned, bulbs give more flexibility. For example floor lamps or ceiling fixtures with multiple lights that can be dimmed/turned off independently. I also think, in terms of cost, an IKEA Trådfri bulb is a compelling alternative to dimmer pucks in the switch.

vineyardmike 7y ago

I have smart bulbs because I mostly use lamps and my apartment building doesn’t let me update the switches.

benhurmarcel 7y ago

> what's your rationale for putting the "smarts" in the bulb and not the switch Then you can control the light intensity and light temperature (or color if you fancy that). With a smart switch it's only on/off.

matt-attack 7y ago
It’s pretty common for light switches to incorporate a dimmer. So it’s more the just on/off.