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> Siena, Liverpool, Kyoto, Manhattan are examples of natural cities. Nit: Kyoto is actually one of few major cities in Japan (another being Sapporo) that is no

> Siena, Liverpool, Kyoto, Manhattan are examples of natural cities. Nit: Kyoto is actually one of few major cities in Japan (another being Sapporo) that is not "natural", being built on a strict grid pattern as a copy of Chinese former capital Chang'an. However, this planning happened in 794 (not a typo), so it has had a bit of time to evolve since!

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
>Levittown, Chandigarh and the British New Towns are examples of artificial cities. The British new towns range from dismal[1] to desirable[2]. Their success seems to have far more to do with the local economy than planning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterlee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterlee [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwyn_Garden_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwyn_Garden_City
- brownbat 7y ago
  Among the several puzzling assumptions in the article seems to be the idea that initial planning is the only story worth telling. It insists all those cities are "razor blades that cut up life," but the streets don't seem to be running with blood. One way to signal that you have carefully thought through your arguments is a commitment to clarity. If you have nothing up your sleeves, you lay out your points as simply as possible. Here, poetic hyperboles hide weak leaps throughout the piece. Such tactics are key when the underlying ideas aren't very strong. At worst, they come off as an argument for an irrational phobia of all new communities. Did no one in Brasilia ever read a newspaper? Really? Is that really the core problem there? Or are we using that silly example to avoid carefully engaging with what actually worked and failed there? Even the categorizations seem arbitrary and collapse on a closer look. Is NYC planned or unplanned? Completely depends on which aspects you're looking at. I feel like the central argumentative strategy here is a slight of hand. If we take an abstraction, then discuss the examples we abstracted out, it will appear like the abstraction misses some core aspects of reality and is therefore harmful. That's the entire purpose of an abstraction though! Of course a city isn't a tree. A city isn't a series of roads either. And yet maps still somehow manage to be useful. The piece is full of such sloppy argumentation and hyperbolic language it should be used as an example for students of how not to write.
  - Kaibeezy 7y ago
    A city isn’t a machine. Ambiguity isn’t sloppy in this context, it’s needed to allow room for contradictions to resolve. People make art out of trash, but the dump isn’t a museum, a museum is. Christopher Alexander has arguably done more than any other human to help us understand why our built environments (physical and software) take the forms they take. 10 minutes flipping through A Pattern Language will clarify the underlying basis for the linked essay.
    - archithrow 7y ago
      I think the point here is that there is a really bad "rhetoric smell" to A City is Not a Tree. It's a geeky rant which jumps to conclusions and makes tendentious statements. Christopher Alexander's trajectory as an architect (almost all other architects ignore his work) is witness to this. Whether it's down to the abstract formalism, messianism, narcissism, I don't quite know. But there is something off-putting about him. When Alexander tries to sell us the line that a city "is" a semilattice, and that this precise mathematical formalism is somehow humane while an equally abstract tree is not—these abstract structures are being asked to do a lot of work. A more skilled theorist wouldn't structure the argument around platonic ideas. All he is trying to say is that exclusive zoning is bad, that human settlements are a naturally a mess of overlapping activities and concerns and should be designed that way. Trying to suggest that this is some kind of mathematical property just feels theological and immature. His writing is reminiscent of a CS undergrad coming up with a concept for a new operating system based on some particular abstraction (pipes, say) and writing a long screed about it without implementing the thing. It's giddy and the central idea is an overvalued abstraction. All I can say is, Alexander is a crank, as far as architecture goes.
      - thanatropism 7y ago
        Why did Alexander metaphors flourish in computer science?
    - brownbat 7y ago
      Wow, that book is weird and interesting, thanks. It contains so many claims, from the obvious to the benign to the ridiculous... Suburbs are obsolete, cities are magical! All farms should be in valleys! People should probably exercise more, twenty minutes of walking per day! Cars are dangerous, unless they are electric, then they are suddenly safe! Big doors are fascist! I'm glad the structural shorthand used in that work inspired lisp and wikis and many other ideas in CS. And I can wholeheartedly second the recommendation, people should check it out. With caution though. I think it'd be extremely dangerous to take the claims at face value just because the organization, the structure and shorthand for those claims is novel. The book did not meaningfully increase my appreciation for the linked essay unfortunately. Seems like a ton of people who are smarter than I am found this all stunningly profound though, so what do I know.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Well, there is also the New Town of Edinburgh which is quite nice... https://ewh.org.uk/world-heritage-sites/new-town/ https://ewh.org.uk/world-heritage-sites/new-town/
- nemetroid 7y ago
  From a quick look at the map, I imagine that Welwyn Garden City derives 90% of its desirability, and usefulness as a town, from the 30 minute train trip to King's Cross. It, too, would probably be considered dismal if it had Peterlee's location.
LatteLazy 7y ago
Similarly Manhattan was one of the first cities to be planned on a fixed grid.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

>Levittown, Chandigarh and the British New Towns are examples of artificial cities. The British new towns range from dismal[1] to desirable[2]. Their success seems to have far more to do with the local economy than planning. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterlee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterlee [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwyn_Garden_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welwyn_Garden_City

brownbat 7y ago
Among the several puzzling assumptions in the article seems to be the idea that initial planning is the only story worth telling. It insists all those cities are "razor blades that cut up life," but the streets don't seem to be running with blood. One way to signal that you have carefully thought through your arguments is a commitment to clarity. If you have nothing up your sleeves, you lay out your points as simply as possible. Here, poetic hyperboles hide weak leaps throughout the piece. Such tactics are key when the underlying ideas aren't very strong. At worst, they come off as an argument for an irrational phobia of all new communities. Did no one in Brasilia ever read a newspaper? Really? Is that really the core problem there? Or are we using that silly example to avoid carefully engaging with what actually worked and failed there? Even the categorizations seem arbitrary and collapse on a closer look. Is NYC planned or unplanned? Completely depends on which aspects you're looking at. I feel like the central argumentative strategy here is a slight of hand. If we take an abstraction, then discuss the examples we abstracted out, it will appear like the abstraction misses some core aspects of reality and is therefore harmful. That's the entire purpose of an abstraction though! Of course a city isn't a tree. A city isn't a series of roads either. And yet maps still somehow manage to be useful. The piece is full of such sloppy argumentation and hyperbolic language it should be used as an example for students of how not to write.
- Kaibeezy 7y ago
  A city isn’t a machine. Ambiguity isn’t sloppy in this context, it’s needed to allow room for contradictions to resolve. People make art out of trash, but the dump isn’t a museum, a museum is. Christopher Alexander has arguably done more than any other human to help us understand why our built environments (physical and software) take the forms they take. 10 minutes flipping through A Pattern Language will clarify the underlying basis for the linked essay.
  - archithrow 7y ago
    I think the point here is that there is a really bad "rhetoric smell" to A City is Not a Tree. It's a geeky rant which jumps to conclusions and makes tendentious statements. Christopher Alexander's trajectory as an architect (almost all other architects ignore his work) is witness to this. Whether it's down to the abstract formalism, messianism, narcissism, I don't quite know. But there is something off-putting about him. When Alexander tries to sell us the line that a city "is" a semilattice, and that this precise mathematical formalism is somehow humane while an equally abstract tree is not—these abstract structures are being asked to do a lot of work. A more skilled theorist wouldn't structure the argument around platonic ideas. All he is trying to say is that exclusive zoning is bad, that human settlements are a naturally a mess of overlapping activities and concerns and should be designed that way. Trying to suggest that this is some kind of mathematical property just feels theological and immature. His writing is reminiscent of a CS undergrad coming up with a concept for a new operating system based on some particular abstraction (pipes, say) and writing a long screed about it without implementing the thing. It's giddy and the central idea is an overvalued abstraction. All I can say is, Alexander is a crank, as far as architecture goes.
    - thanatropism 7y ago
      Why did Alexander metaphors flourish in computer science?
  - brownbat 7y ago
    Wow, that book is weird and interesting, thanks. It contains so many claims, from the obvious to the benign to the ridiculous... Suburbs are obsolete, cities are magical! All farms should be in valleys! People should probably exercise more, twenty minutes of walking per day! Cars are dangerous, unless they are electric, then they are suddenly safe! Big doors are fascist! I'm glad the structural shorthand used in that work inspired lisp and wikis and many other ideas in CS. And I can wholeheartedly second the recommendation, people should check it out. With caution though. I think it'd be extremely dangerous to take the claims at face value just because the organization, the structure and shorthand for those claims is novel. The book did not meaningfully increase my appreciation for the linked essay unfortunately. Seems like a ton of people who are smarter than I am found this all stunningly profound though, so what do I know.
arethuza 7y ago
Well, there is also the New Town of Edinburgh which is quite nice... https://ewh.org.uk/world-heritage-sites/new-town/ https://ewh.org.uk/world-heritage-sites/new-town/
nemetroid 7y ago
From a quick look at the map, I imagine that Welwyn Garden City derives 90% of its desirability, and usefulness as a town, from the 30 minute train trip to King's Cross. It, too, would probably be considered dismal if it had Peterlee's location.

LatteLazy 7y ago

Similarly Manhattan was one of the first cities to be planned on a fixed grid.