9 ms·

I actually really like Windows 10, a huge portion of this list could easily apply to any modern operating system that isn't Linux, and even there some of it app

I actually really like Windows 10, a huge portion of this list could easily apply to any modern operating system that isn't Linux, and even there some of it applies. So OSX, Android, iOS, etc. The section "Now the second kind of issues is intrinsic to Windows 10 only" is full of things that are literally applicable to all the OSes I listed above. I had some laugh out loud moments reading it. Are people just blinded by rage against Microsoft? I don't see how anyone could type that section in particular out with a straight face while knowing about all the other major modern OSes.

itvision 7y ago
MacOS doesn't have 95% of the listed issues. And we don't have any other desktop OSes which are ready for prime time.
- Silhouette 7y ago
  And we don't have any other desktop OSes which are ready for prime time. People keep saying that, but how often is it really true these days? As a professional software developer, the tools available on UNIXy platforms are already much better in many cases than the Windows ports. For a typical home user who is mostly interested in things like email and social networking, and maybe needs to write up some notes or do a quick household budget spreadsheet or basic photo editing, there is capable software available on any serious desktop platform today. It's true that gaming lags behind, though there has been useful progress there in recent times, but lots of people game on dedicated consoles or on their mobile devices anyway now. Are you sure you're not just repeating dogma that is well out of date by now?
  - ClumsyPilot 7y ago
    There is loads of must-have proffeshional software that doesnt work on linux. Photoshop, illustrator, autocad, solidworks, etc.
    - aktuel 7y ago
      I'm a professional and I don't need those tools. Most people I know do not use those tools either. Some people need them, sure. But the number of people who do not need those tools is certainly larger than the Apple market share.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      As someone who has used that sort of software professionally in various capacities, I think "must-have" is a strong term these days. A lot of everyday software at work is no longer the massive-cost, massive-installation, licensing-headache behemoths of yesteryear. Also relevant, we do have some software along those lines on our Windows 7 machines that are about to run out of support, but the only way to get them on new machines running Windows 10 is to jump on the subscription bandwagon and deal with all the incompatibilities with the older but stable versions we've been using effectively until now.
  - drankula3 7y ago
    I'm a systems administrator for a small MSP. I've used Linux as my primary OS for 9 years, despise using Windows, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that nothing but Windows is ready for prime time, and for one major reason: _ease of administration_. Think of the growth cycle of the vast majority of businesses. Almost all businesses are started and run by non-IT people. They buy Windows machines because they're simple(don't have to worry about OS installation, chosing a distro, etc), have Microsoft Office, and work with any and all enterprise software they use. This gives them a key advantage for small businesses. Like it or not, Linux is just relatively hard. Where Windows _really_ shines, though, is when a small business transitions to being a big-small or medium-sized business. If you have a couple dozen computers and a couple dozen users to manage, do you think it would be worth it to have a linux admin spin up an LDAP server with kerberos and all the bells and whistles needed, then be hired to manage that infrastructure? No, they're going to contract someone to spin up a windows server to manage user logins, create a network share, and call it a day. The infrastructure is super-stable, and when the cost of labor is considered, it is considerably cheaper than letting the system be the plaything of a local Linux zealot. It's only when you consider big and massive businesses that Linux can really be viable, and even then it ain't cheap. Most big businesses grew in a Windows environment, and switching the core of your IT infrastructure sure as hell better be worth it to warrant the massive labor costs, IT fire fighting, and drop in employee productivity that will result. No, Linux infrastructure and desktops really only make sense for companies that are either highly technical, need absolute control of their hardware, are _extremely_ price sensitive, are (or hope to become) massive, or a combination of these.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      FWIW, I mostly operate in the world of small businesses, and in tech and creative sectors. Anecdotally, the majority of the small businesses I deal with don't fit your characterisation there. For example, MS Office is far from universal in this market now. Online collaboration and document editing tools are displacing applications like Word and Project. We're being forced to switch to online management and accounting systems because of issues with interoperability and government regulation, which makes Excel much less useful. Outlook/Exchange is giving way to Google Mail and similar services. I'm not saying any of these is necessarily an improvement or has no downsides, but it's clearly the way the industry has been moving. The specialists doing things like CAD or DCC still need the 800lb gorilla software in many cases, but those are niche markets. The biggest problem with Linux on the desktop today is no longer application support, IMHO, but rather the lack of off-the-shelf PCs you can buy that way, with proper tech support and so on. We tried buying one of the Dell laptops that was sold with Ubuntu preinstalled, and it was one of the most disappointing and troublesome purchases we've ever made, largely due to the abysmal support when basic hardware failures occurred. (Also, the hardware itself appears to be pretty poor quality.) If you could buy decent laptops with Linux preinstalled from the usual big name brands or off the shelf at your local bricks-and-mortar store, I suspect a lot of people would barely notice the difference any more, because so many of their software needs are either very basic or using online systems now.
  - vips7L 7y ago
    > As a professional software developer, the tools available on UNIXy platforms are already much better in many cases than the Windows ports. This is because everyone keeps trying to make windows unix/gnu. Embrace powershell it has everything GNU binutils does, but built in. As a professional software developer I NEVER have problems developing except when unixy devs don't test for windows or don't use cross platform tools.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      This isn't just about a convenient shell, though, is it? The state-of-the-art in compiler and other tool development in a lot of languages is hosted on UNIXy platforms. Many of the developers are there. Much of the attention and research and new work is focused there. Many of the tools for hosting online applications as a server are there. Windows simply isn't the dominant platform for most of this kind of work, and using Windows for software development sometimes feels like using Linux for gaming, for much the same reasons.
      - vips7L 7y ago
        You have a point, and its one I didn't really consider (community). I was mostly looking at mature things.
      - jki275 7y ago
        Are you unfamiliar with MSVC and Visual Studio?
        Silhouette 7y ago
        No, I used them professionally for years, and still do for Windows development. What's your point?
        jki275 7y ago
        Your comment makes it seems as though people don't develop software on Windows. That's a fairly normal thing that happens quite a great deal, and it's arguably the best software development experience because of Visual Studio.
  - m463 7y ago
    Think about putting a non-tech person on linux and that whole thing just grinds to a halt. There is a lot of fiddling.
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      What fiddling do you think is involved in running a typical Ubuntu desktop these days? Hardware mostly just works. Plug in a USB stick or a camera or phone, see your files, like any other desktop. You've got web browsers and basic office software and communications tools and all the rest. The OS can automatically update for security issues, and that takes care of much of your installed software as well if you're just using the default option of getting things from your distribution. Almost anything to do with this is qualitatively better than modern Windows systems. Sure, the look and feel is different and it takes a few minutes to find your way around, but then the look and feel is different moving from Windows to macOS, or even from Windows 7 to Windows 10, too.
      - m463 7y ago
        Ubuntu is a controversial example. Probably better usability than most linux distros, but it collects a lot of data (lots of telemetry, amazon app, etc)
        Silhouette 7y ago
        What do you think Ubuntu collects without an explicit option to turn it off, or even having it off by default? Canonical have had a couple of mis-steps in that direction over the years, but the Ubuntu community has pushed back consistently against intrusive measures and Canonical have typically backed down very quickly when they overstepped the mark.
        fredsanford 7y ago
        FUD
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pier25 7y ago
  Stop it with the drama. There are millions of people (billions?) using Windows to do stuff every day. Just an example: do you know who Hans Zimmer is? You have most lilely heard his music in countless films. Yeah, he uses Windows.
  - timrichard 7y ago
    I think he’s probably more invested in Cubase than Windows itself, which I’ve heard is the better of the two platforms to run it on.
    - pier25 7y ago
      Totally, but my point is that if Windows wasn't "ready for prime time" how come there are tons of people being productive with it.
- kyriakos 7y ago
  In my company on the other hand IT banned macos and we only run windows and Linux, because administration of those operating systems is far superior. The fact is millions of businesses run on Windows and I would say most of the world economy relies on it.
  - oceanswave 7y ago
    Truth is that the world economy relies more on linux-based systems than anything else, even in microsoft’s own datacenters
    - kyriakos 7y ago
      Not all business is happening on the server side. A lot of business happens at the workstation where the tools are Outlook, Excel and Word.
Silhouette 7y ago
Just because other companies are pushing out shoddy updates and other user-hostile measures, that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise the one we're talking about for doing it. My phone, which was top of the range when I bought it less than a year ago, has serious bugs in the most basic features, which have replaced other serious bugs in similarly basic features from the last software release. This was all essential stuff -- literally things like making and receiving calls properly -- that worked fine on a little Nokia block costing 3% of the price and available a decade ago. The fact that both market forces and official regulation have failed so badly that my modern, four-figure-cost phone can't do what a Nokia block costing maybe 3% of the price could do a decade ago is hardly a glowing endorsement of our modern consumer-hostile tech culture. So it is with Windows 10, and its obsession with spying on everything you do, and with updating itself without your knowledge or consent and forcing reboots at times it considers it necessary. Some of us don't work regular hours and do need to do long-running (multiple days) jobs fairly often, and there is just no way that a serious operating system should be interfering with that.
sterlind 7y ago
I use Windows for work. My setup is a bit unusual, since I run Windows inside a hyper-V VM (itself running on Windows), but the performance gets abysmal between logins. Whenever I unlock, everything grinds to a halt, applications shudder, even the start menu takes a couple minutes to activate. It spastically doesn't register window events and then suddenly 50 Alt+Tabs and click events burst through. After about 15 minutes it's mostly back. I'd like to debug, but I have no clue where to start. I tried to follow Randomascii's examples and collect perf traces, but I have a hard time drilling that far in. Weirdly, the reported CPU usage is less than 50% but there's a flood of DPCs of some kind. It wasn't always this bad. I think it's just Winrot. I'm thinking of investing in an unattended image building process so I can just keep swapping "fresh" copies of Windows in, but I shouldn't need to damnit! (Disclaimer: I made the foolish decision to use Insider builds, and I work for MS so I might be eating some bad dogfood. Also, the outer Windows works fine, so it might be hyper-V issues.)
- exikyut 7y ago
  I understand that @randomascii is responsive, perhaps he could help with analysis. I see an email address on his site's About page. Also, I got curious about the perf collection process, and stumbled on https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/yongrhee/2017/10/11/using-xperf-to-capture-etl-traces-for-slow-logons/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/yongrhee/2017/10/11/usin... - unsure if this will be useful. Also found https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/ https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/, for completeness
mikestew 7y ago
Are people just blinded by rage against Microsoft? The first person quoted abbreviated Microsoft as “M$”, and AFAICT, within the past few years. We’ve seen that Penny Arcade cartoon from, what was it, ten years ago? That was a page-closer for me, I don’t think I was going to find useful commentary in there. And I loathe having to use Windows 10 at work. And I worked at MS a lot longer than the person quoted.
- Lammy 7y ago
  > what was it, ten years ago? Double that and you’re closer ;) https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    M$ was a staple on Slashdot in the late 90s, along with the Bill as Borg icon.
  - AtlasBarfed 7y ago
    Microsoft has been an oppressive troll since the 80s. Forty years. The fact there are terms of phrase to encapsulate frustration and anger with that isn't some disqualifying marker to someone's opinion. Unless of course you are partisan in opposition to those views. Which means you are the ones with the invalid arguments
    - Lammy 7y ago
      You're reading way too far into a throwaway comment about a twenty year old webcomic.
xg15 7y ago
> The section "Now the second kind of issues is intrinsic to Windows 10 only" is full of things that are literally applicable to [OSX, Android, iOS, etc] Yes, unfortunately, turning the OS into locked-down spyware is an industry trend that Microsoft just joined but did not start. That doesn't make the trend any better though.

itvision 7y ago

MacOS doesn't have 95% of the listed issues. And we don't have any other desktop OSes which are ready for prime time.

Silhouette 7y ago
And we don't have any other desktop OSes which are ready for prime time. People keep saying that, but how often is it really true these days? As a professional software developer, the tools available on UNIXy platforms are already much better in many cases than the Windows ports. For a typical home user who is mostly interested in things like email and social networking, and maybe needs to write up some notes or do a quick household budget spreadsheet or basic photo editing, there is capable software available on any serious desktop platform today. It's true that gaming lags behind, though there has been useful progress there in recent times, but lots of people game on dedicated consoles or on their mobile devices anyway now. Are you sure you're not just repeating dogma that is well out of date by now?
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  There is loads of must-have proffeshional software that doesnt work on linux. Photoshop, illustrator, autocad, solidworks, etc.
  - aktuel 7y ago
    I'm a professional and I don't need those tools. Most people I know do not use those tools either. Some people need them, sure. But the number of people who do not need those tools is certainly larger than the Apple market share.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    As someone who has used that sort of software professionally in various capacities, I think "must-have" is a strong term these days. A lot of everyday software at work is no longer the massive-cost, massive-installation, licensing-headache behemoths of yesteryear. Also relevant, we do have some software along those lines on our Windows 7 machines that are about to run out of support, but the only way to get them on new machines running Windows 10 is to jump on the subscription bandwagon and deal with all the incompatibilities with the older but stable versions we've been using effectively until now.
- drankula3 7y ago
  I'm a systems administrator for a small MSP. I've used Linux as my primary OS for 9 years, despise using Windows, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that nothing but Windows is ready for prime time, and for one major reason: _ease of administration_. Think of the growth cycle of the vast majority of businesses. Almost all businesses are started and run by non-IT people. They buy Windows machines because they're simple(don't have to worry about OS installation, chosing a distro, etc), have Microsoft Office, and work with any and all enterprise software they use. This gives them a key advantage for small businesses. Like it or not, Linux is just relatively hard. Where Windows _really_ shines, though, is when a small business transitions to being a big-small or medium-sized business. If you have a couple dozen computers and a couple dozen users to manage, do you think it would be worth it to have a linux admin spin up an LDAP server with kerberos and all the bells and whistles needed, then be hired to manage that infrastructure? No, they're going to contract someone to spin up a windows server to manage user logins, create a network share, and call it a day. The infrastructure is super-stable, and when the cost of labor is considered, it is considerably cheaper than letting the system be the plaything of a local Linux zealot. It's only when you consider big and massive businesses that Linux can really be viable, and even then it ain't cheap. Most big businesses grew in a Windows environment, and switching the core of your IT infrastructure sure as hell better be worth it to warrant the massive labor costs, IT fire fighting, and drop in employee productivity that will result. No, Linux infrastructure and desktops really only make sense for companies that are either highly technical, need absolute control of their hardware, are _extremely_ price sensitive, are (or hope to become) massive, or a combination of these.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    FWIW, I mostly operate in the world of small businesses, and in tech and creative sectors. Anecdotally, the majority of the small businesses I deal with don't fit your characterisation there. For example, MS Office is far from universal in this market now. Online collaboration and document editing tools are displacing applications like Word and Project. We're being forced to switch to online management and accounting systems because of issues with interoperability and government regulation, which makes Excel much less useful. Outlook/Exchange is giving way to Google Mail and similar services. I'm not saying any of these is necessarily an improvement or has no downsides, but it's clearly the way the industry has been moving. The specialists doing things like CAD or DCC still need the 800lb gorilla software in many cases, but those are niche markets. The biggest problem with Linux on the desktop today is no longer application support, IMHO, but rather the lack of off-the-shelf PCs you can buy that way, with proper tech support and so on. We tried buying one of the Dell laptops that was sold with Ubuntu preinstalled, and it was one of the most disappointing and troublesome purchases we've ever made, largely due to the abysmal support when basic hardware failures occurred. (Also, the hardware itself appears to be pretty poor quality.) If you could buy decent laptops with Linux preinstalled from the usual big name brands or off the shelf at your local bricks-and-mortar store, I suspect a lot of people would barely notice the difference any more, because so many of their software needs are either very basic or using online systems now.
- vips7L 7y ago
  > As a professional software developer, the tools available on UNIXy platforms are already much better in many cases than the Windows ports. This is because everyone keeps trying to make windows unix/gnu. Embrace powershell it has everything GNU binutils does, but built in. As a professional software developer I NEVER have problems developing except when unixy devs don't test for windows or don't use cross platform tools.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    This isn't just about a convenient shell, though, is it? The state-of-the-art in compiler and other tool development in a lot of languages is hosted on UNIXy platforms. Many of the developers are there. Much of the attention and research and new work is focused there. Many of the tools for hosting online applications as a server are there. Windows simply isn't the dominant platform for most of this kind of work, and using Windows for software development sometimes feels like using Linux for gaming, for much the same reasons.
    - vips7L 7y ago
      You have a point, and its one I didn't really consider (community). I was mostly looking at mature things.
    - jki275 7y ago
      Are you unfamiliar with MSVC and Visual Studio?
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        No, I used them professionally for years, and still do for Windows development. What's your point?
        jki275 7y ago
        Your comment makes it seems as though people don't develop software on Windows. That's a fairly normal thing that happens quite a great deal, and it's arguably the best software development experience because of Visual Studio.
- m463 7y ago
  Think about putting a non-tech person on linux and that whole thing just grinds to a halt. There is a lot of fiddling.
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    What fiddling do you think is involved in running a typical Ubuntu desktop these days? Hardware mostly just works. Plug in a USB stick or a camera or phone, see your files, like any other desktop. You've got web browsers and basic office software and communications tools and all the rest. The OS can automatically update for security issues, and that takes care of much of your installed software as well if you're just using the default option of getting things from your distribution. Almost anything to do with this is qualitatively better than modern Windows systems. Sure, the look and feel is different and it takes a few minutes to find your way around, but then the look and feel is different moving from Windows to macOS, or even from Windows 7 to Windows 10, too.
    - m463 7y ago
      Ubuntu is a controversial example. Probably better usability than most linux distros, but it collects a lot of data (lots of telemetry, amazon app, etc)
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        What do you think Ubuntu collects without an explicit option to turn it off, or even having it off by default? Canonical have had a couple of mis-steps in that direction over the years, but the Ubuntu community has pushed back consistently against intrusive measures and Canonical have typically backed down very quickly when they overstepped the mark.
      - fredsanford 7y ago
        FUD
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pier25 7y ago
Stop it with the drama. There are millions of people (billions?) using Windows to do stuff every day. Just an example: do you know who Hans Zimmer is? You have most lilely heard his music in countless films. Yeah, he uses Windows.
- timrichard 7y ago
  I think he’s probably more invested in Cubase than Windows itself, which I’ve heard is the better of the two platforms to run it on.
  - pier25 7y ago
    Totally, but my point is that if Windows wasn't "ready for prime time" how come there are tons of people being productive with it.
kyriakos 7y ago
In my company on the other hand IT banned macos and we only run windows and Linux, because administration of those operating systems is far superior. The fact is millions of businesses run on Windows and I would say most of the world economy relies on it.
- oceanswave 7y ago
  Truth is that the world economy relies more on linux-based systems than anything else, even in microsoft’s own datacenters
  - kyriakos 7y ago
    Not all business is happening on the server side. A lot of business happens at the workstation where the tools are Outlook, Excel and Word.

Silhouette 7y ago

Just because other companies are pushing out shoddy updates and other user-hostile measures, that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise the one we're talking about for doing it. My phone, which was top of the range when I bought it less than a year ago, has serious bugs in the most basic features, which have replaced other serious bugs in similarly basic features from the last software release. This was all essential stuff -- literally things like making and receiving calls properly -- that worked fine on a little Nokia block costing 3% of the price and available a decade ago. The fact that both market forces and official regulation have failed so badly that my modern, four-figure-cost phone can't do what a Nokia block costing maybe 3% of the price could do a decade ago is hardly a glowing endorsement of our modern consumer-hostile tech culture. So it is with Windows 10, and its obsession with spying on everything you do, and with updating itself without your knowledge or consent and forcing reboots at times it considers it necessary. Some of us don't work regular hours and do need to do long-running (multiple days) jobs fairly often, and there is just no way that a serious operating system should be interfering with that.

sterlind 7y ago

I use Windows for work. My setup is a bit unusual, since I run Windows inside a hyper-V VM (itself running on Windows), but the performance gets abysmal between logins. Whenever I unlock, everything grinds to a halt, applications shudder, even the start menu takes a couple minutes to activate. It spastically doesn't register window events and then suddenly 50 Alt+Tabs and click events burst through. After about 15 minutes it's mostly back. I'd like to debug, but I have no clue where to start. I tried to follow Randomascii's examples and collect perf traces, but I have a hard time drilling that far in. Weirdly, the reported CPU usage is less than 50% but there's a flood of DPCs of some kind. It wasn't always this bad. I think it's just Winrot. I'm thinking of investing in an unattended image building process so I can just keep swapping "fresh" copies of Windows in, but I shouldn't need to damnit! (Disclaimer: I made the foolish decision to use Insider builds, and I work for MS so I might be eating some bad dogfood. Also, the outer Windows works fine, so it might be hyper-V issues.)

exikyut 7y ago
I understand that @randomascii is responsive, perhaps he could help with analysis. I see an email address on his site's About page. Also, I got curious about the perf collection process, and stumbled on https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/yongrhee/2017/10/11/using-xperf-to-capture-etl-traces-for-slow-logons/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/yongrhee/2017/10/11/usin... - unsure if this will be useful. Also found https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/ https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/etw-central/, for completeness

mikestew 7y ago

Are people just blinded by rage against Microsoft? The first person quoted abbreviated Microsoft as “M$”, and AFAICT, within the past few years. We’ve seen that Penny Arcade cartoon from, what was it, ten years ago? That was a page-closer for me, I don’t think I was going to find useful commentary in there. And I loathe having to use Windows 10 at work. And I worked at MS a lot longer than the person quoted.

Lammy 7y ago
> what was it, ten years ago? Double that and you’re closer ;) https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22 https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  M$ was a staple on Slashdot in the late 90s, along with the Bill as Borg icon.
- AtlasBarfed 7y ago
  Microsoft has been an oppressive troll since the 80s. Forty years. The fact there are terms of phrase to encapsulate frustration and anger with that isn't some disqualifying marker to someone's opinion. Unless of course you are partisan in opposition to those views. Which means you are the ones with the invalid arguments
  - Lammy 7y ago
    You're reading way too far into a throwaway comment about a twenty year old webcomic.

xg15 7y ago

> The section "Now the second kind of issues is intrinsic to Windows 10 only" is full of things that are literally applicable to [OSX, Android, iOS, etc] Yes, unfortunately, turning the OS into locked-down spyware is an industry trend that Microsoft just joined but did not start. That doesn't make the trend any better though.