5 ms·

Does this make an ATC person a single point of failure? If that person is bad intended or is tired, can they simply cause 2 planes to crash?

_-___________-_ 7y ago
In large ATC locations, no - there are always multiple ATCers involved in each position. For smaller locations, there could be a single person working each position without supervision (or the supervisor could be asleep) or even a single person in the entire location (e.g. a small tower). That single person should still not be able to cause two planes to crash, because pilots don't blindly follow the instructions ATC gives them. They will be aware of other traffic nearby, through ATC telling them about the traffic, making visual contact with the traffic (when in visual conditions), and hearing the other traffic on the radio (this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish). There is also a system called TCAS which will alert pilots to nearby traffic, as well as giving instructions for collision avoidance to both aircraft in the case that they are on colliding (or near-colliding) trajectories, with these instructions overriding anything ATC has instructed. It's only when the holes in all of these systems line up that a collision can happen -- look up the Swiss Cheese model.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mariushn 7y ago
  Thanks!
- fyfy18 7y ago
  > this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish How does that happen? I was under the impression that all flight communication was supposed to be performed in English, even in countries where English is not very commonly spoken (e.g. Spain).
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    Many countries allow "English or the local language". Well-known examples are China, France, Russia, Spain, Germany. I've also heard it in Italy and the Netherlands. The extent of use of local language varies - in NL I've mostly only heard it for a small amount of non-formal conversation, maybe a Dutch word at the end of a transmission. In Spain it's extremely common for entire transmissions to be in Spanish. Obviously this is only done when both the transmitter and the receiver of the transmission understand the local language. It is (in my opinion and many other people's) a safety issue because it reduces the situational awareness of everyone else on frequency.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  > Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish). Or this case where Flights to Bogotá got diverted to smaller airports around Colombia that don’t deal in English much. Cali ATC’s fluency with English wasn’t great and they seemed to be ignoring the English speaking Lufthansa pilot. Lots of holding patterns to manage the queue. Eventually, the local but bilingual pilots on the frequency catch on and instruct ATC to let Lufthansa jump the queue and let them land first because the situation is much more complicated for them. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    "Wasn't great" is an understatement. Cali ATC seemed to be barely able (or unwilling) to communicate to the English-speaking pilots. Then took up precious time on-frequency to try to cover her ass when she realized her mistakes. Yes, there was a high workload due to all the diversions coming in but come on, get help if you can't communicate with international traffic. As an English-only speaking pilot, I'd be a little nervous flying into an area where most calls are in the local language. You lose out on a lot of situational awareness that comes from listening to the other transmissions.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      You're definitely even more hyper-aware than usual, paying attention to things that "don't seem right", when you can't understand what other pilots are saying. It's unfortunately quite a common situation in Europe -- even more so for GA, because it's common for GA pilots to speak the local language with small towers even if the commercial norm in the country is to exclusively speak English.
      - Scoundreller 7y ago
        My favourite part was Oceanair astutely switching up who's handling the radios. Errrr... maybe they preferred English so Lufthansa would know what's going on until that disabled ATC comms... Any idea why Lufthansa wasn't able to find MANGA?
- dehrmann 7y ago
  > There is also a system called TCAS I've been on a few private planes, and I don't think either of them had this.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    Yep. It's uncommon on small GA aircraft. The consequent risk is considered "acceptable".

_-___________-_ 7y ago

In large ATC locations, no - there are always multiple ATCers involved in each position. For smaller locations, there could be a single person working each position without supervision (or the supervisor could be asleep) or even a single person in the entire location (e.g. a small tower). That single person should still not be able to cause two planes to crash, because pilots don't blindly follow the instructions ATC gives them. They will be aware of other traffic nearby, through ATC telling them about the traffic, making visual contact with the traffic (when in visual conditions), and hearing the other traffic on the radio (this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish). There is also a system called TCAS which will alert pilots to nearby traffic, as well as giving instructions for collision avoidance to both aircraft in the case that they are on colliding (or near-colliding) trajectories, with these instructions overriding anything ATC has instructed. It's only when the holes in all of these systems line up that a collision can happen -- look up the Swiss Cheese model.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mariushn 7y ago
Thanks!
fyfy18 7y ago
> this is an issue in, for example, Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish How does that happen? I was under the impression that all flight communication was supposed to be performed in English, even in countries where English is not very commonly spoken (e.g. Spain).
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Many countries allow "English or the local language". Well-known examples are China, France, Russia, Spain, Germany. I've also heard it in Italy and the Netherlands. The extent of use of local language varies - in NL I've mostly only heard it for a small amount of non-formal conversation, maybe a Dutch word at the end of a transmission. In Spain it's extremely common for entire transmissions to be in Spanish. Obviously this is only done when both the transmitter and the receiver of the transmission understand the local language. It is (in my opinion and many other people's) a safety issue because it reduces the situational awareness of everyone else on frequency.
Scoundreller 7y ago
> Spain where the radio communication is often in Spanish and many pilots flying there don't understand Spanish). Or this case where Flights to Bogotá got diverted to smaller airports around Colombia that don’t deal in English much. Cali ATC’s fluency with English wasn’t great and they seemed to be ignoring the English speaking Lufthansa pilot. Lots of holding patterns to manage the queue. Eventually, the local but bilingual pilots on the frequency catch on and instruct ATC to let Lufthansa jump the queue and let them land first because the situation is much more complicated for them. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh9c1UyIrdg
- ryandrake 7y ago
  "Wasn't great" is an understatement. Cali ATC seemed to be barely able (or unwilling) to communicate to the English-speaking pilots. Then took up precious time on-frequency to try to cover her ass when she realized her mistakes. Yes, there was a high workload due to all the diversions coming in but come on, get help if you can't communicate with international traffic. As an English-only speaking pilot, I'd be a little nervous flying into an area where most calls are in the local language. You lose out on a lot of situational awareness that comes from listening to the other transmissions.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    You're definitely even more hyper-aware than usual, paying attention to things that "don't seem right", when you can't understand what other pilots are saying. It's unfortunately quite a common situation in Europe -- even more so for GA, because it's common for GA pilots to speak the local language with small towers even if the commercial norm in the country is to exclusively speak English.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      My favourite part was Oceanair astutely switching up who's handling the radios. Errrr... maybe they preferred English so Lufthansa would know what's going on until that disabled ATC comms... Any idea why Lufthansa wasn't able to find MANGA?
dehrmann 7y ago
> There is also a system called TCAS I've been on a few private planes, and I don't think either of them had this.
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  Yep. It's uncommon on small GA aircraft. The consequent risk is considered "acceptable".