13 ms·

The Joys of Unix Keyboards

133 points by ecliptik 7y ago

skocznymroczny 7y ago
The "Lite" version of the keyboard doesn't have the Topre switches, so it throws the main reason to get the HHKB in the first place out of the window.
- 1hackaday 7y ago
  But it does have the arrows, which are useful for many applications. It would be ideal if there was a "pro" HHKB with arrows.
  - aricz 7y ago
    HHKB with arrows: https://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html https://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html
terofle 7y ago
> The ~ and \ have moved to the usual location of the Backspace. Working exclusively on UNIX systems now, I don't mind the \ being harder to reach. I could understand a Windows user finding this irritating. This guy has clearly never used LaTeX. I mapped my \ to a more accessible location and it improved my typing speed by factor 2 or so.
- consp 7y ago
  Also as a vim user I would like the esc instead of the control here but that is non Unix standard as far as I know. I also use Windows quite a lot so having the \ somewhere close is nice to have. Though I really dislike the meta key next to the space-bar but that is just me not being old enough to have used non IBM compatible keyboards. As you might have noticed, everybody's preference is different.
  - dijit 7y ago
    There are many ways to rebind caps lock to be escape on press and control when used in combination with another key. Karbiner elements on macos and xcape on Linux come to mind immediately. But some keyboard firmwares are programmable enough to do it themselves too. However. What I found best as a vim user was to use ^[ as escape. It has the added bonus of actually being faster to process by vim too.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      You don't need any extra software to map Caps to Esc on X11: Just enable the caps:escape option. In context: https://github.com/majewsky/system-configuration/blob/6c4478bfdbb61f6bdb4c523286b6e85b291807d5/hologram-base-gui-minimal.pkg.toml#L48 https://github.com/majewsky/system-configuration/blob/6c4478...
      - dijit 7y ago
        Yeah. That’s cool, but I’m talking about conditional context switching. ESC if pressed once. CTRL it pressed with another key.
        davefp 7y ago
        This is the sort of thing I'd want to modify the keyboard firmware for. QMK has explicit support for this kind of thing, for example: https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_advanced_keycodes?id=mod-tap https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_advanced_keycodes?id=mod-tap
      - silasdb 7y ago
        You can also use xmodmap [1]. My xmodmap file has things like: ! Make Caps Lock be Escape and Scroll Lock be Caps Lock remove Lock = Caps_Lock keysym Caps_Lock = Escape remove Lock = Scroll_Lock keysym Scroll_Lock = Caps_Lock add Lock = Caps_Lock After reading this post, I also reverted backspace and bar/backslash: keysym BackSpace = backslash bar keysym backslash = BackSpace [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xmodmap https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xmodmap EDIT: xmodmap link
- globuous 7y ago
  I’ve been wanting to config emacs to change my special char layout from major modes to major modes. As such, i could make my backslash key easily accessible from latex-mode, but out of the way in python-mode. Get my backquote easily accessible from lisp-mode, but out of the way in other modes. I feel like if i only have a few special chars to move around between modes, it should be easy to learn. I’ve already inherited my xkbmap and changed the special char to something that suites me more and its been better on my fingers.
- krilly 7y ago
  I rather like the position of \ and / in the ISO layout. \ is on the right of lshift and / is on the left of rshift. It feels nice and consistent.
- 7777fps 7y ago
  I was wondering why there was any need to move the \ character but then I looked up where it is in the US layout and it seems bizarre. The UK layout has an advantage, it's to the left of the Z and is easy to type. The UK layout has a whole extra key which also makes # easier to type because it does not require a shift.
  - SuperPaintMan 7y ago
    This is why I'm glad that QMK exists. Because you're using a programmable board (where the keymaps/layers/etc) are stored on the keyboard itself you can move everything about and never worry about where your configuration is. And it runs all all sizes of boards from smaller stuff like [1] Gergo and GergoPlex to giant boards like the [2] Hyper7. Hell you can even get a addon board for a HHKB (Hasu Controller) and mod it in. Although it's a bit of a rabbit hole. You start by moving around your control keys, maybe add a thumb backspace, a few months later you end up with a programming optimized symbols layer [3] and then maybe even adding in chorded stuff [4]. It's a bit of a trip and ruins 'traditional' keyboards. [1] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/ [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/hyper_7_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/hyper_7_keyboard.html [3] https://qmk.fm/keyboards/gergo/keymap.png https://qmk.fm/keyboards/gergo/keymap.png [4] https://github.com/germ/qmk_firmware/blob/gboards-update/keyboards/gergoplex/keymaps/default/keymap.c https://github.com/germ/qmk_firmware/blob/gboards-update/key...
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  >it improved my typing speed by factor 2 or so. Is it odd that I've never found my typing speed to be a bottleneck worth optimizing? Maybe I haven't thought about it enough. While I overall type slower than I think, the difference is very slight and the result is more time to think about how to phrase things. I often find my hands freezing for .5ish seconds while my brain get stuck deciding on what the next appropriate word is. When coding, it is even less of an issue and if I ever have anything to optimize on the level of typing it would be the auto complete not being helpful enough.
  - saurik 7y ago
    I type very very fast, and yet I know I can speak faster. Not all typing is careful crafting, and even to the extent to which it is seeing it printed out and then erasing parts and replacing them is a very effective way to test things out and save state. Most of my typing is just conversing, where typing notably slower than I can speak, as opposed to merely a bit slower, would be crippling. (And even if I am in a situation where I am waiting on someone else, well, then I can type fast enough to talk to two or three people at once.)
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    Very early in my career, I started to get RSI issues (before it was a well known phenomena). I limited my typing speed to 32 WPM and also enforced a rest every 30 seconds (originally by beeping the speaker every 30 seconds until I got used to it). I now type very slowly while programming, but usually I'm thinking continuously. Often I'm not thinking at all about the thing I'm typing -- the typing is waaay far behind. I'm convinced that this strategy both saved my hands/wrists and improved my coding. Interestingly, I stream some free software coding I do on twitch (usually about 2 hours a day). I should watch myself and see what I do now, because I haven't really paid attention to my typing for at least a couple of decades. Though, my streaming dialog easily takes half of my brain, so maybe it's not what I normally do... ;-)
azaras 7y ago
Control in Caps Lock is only a small improvement for emacs users. The best option is to put a little pad in the control keys and use your palms to hit it: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7zvw2b/my_weapon_against_emacs_pinky/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7zvw2b/my_weapon_aga...
- gerikson 7y ago
  That's a bit impractical for laptop use ;) I no longer live in Emacs like I did for the first half of my previous job, but so far (touch wood!) I have avoided RSI by just remapping Caps Lock to Ctrl.
- slezyr 7y ago
  Or use USB pedals https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Uvir1H0AL._AC_SL1100_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Uvir1H0AL...
  - paddy_m 7y ago
    I'm glad they are all screwed together. Years ago I broke my wrist and couldn't rotate my left wrist in all of the proper ways. I tried some key pedals, which were helpful but very finicky, there wasn't good tactile feedback and I had to screw them to a piece of plywood. What did work very well was taking a Kinesis Freestyle [1] (two completely separate keyboard halves attached with a cable) and mounting the left side to a hobbyist vise [2]. I removed the vise (clamping part) and kept the base. Then I made an adapter plate (plywood) that allowed me to mount the left half on the base. Then I could position that half at any angle and rotation I wanted. This probably got me typing again four weeks earlier. [1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ [2] https://www.harborfreight.com/2-3-4-quarter-inch-articulated-vacuum-vise-3311.html https://www.harborfreight.com/2-3-4-quarter-inch-articulated...
tyingq 7y ago
There are several Sun to USB adapters if you really want to use an old Sun keyboard on a PC or Mac. There even used to be inline devices that filtered the L1-A /STOP signal. Because if you hit that key on a Sun server console, it paused the whole server.
- technofiend 7y ago
  You can get a Sun type 6 keyboard with native USB, no adapter required. [1] I went through a few over the years before giving up on "new old stock" because they had a tendency to fail. As I recall we have IBM to thank for the Ctrl/capslock swap. The IBM PC keyboard featured that change and was a carry over from the selectric typewriter and possibly other IBM terminal keyboards. It was very annoying for those of us with muscle memory with Ctrl where it was supposed to be. Particularly for programs like Wordstar that had heavily used keys clustered within easy reach of the pinky finger resting on control in the "right" place. In fact there appear to be programs and macros that still allow Wordstar mode in emacs (deprecated), vim and word. So I guess it's still popular. Supposedly George RR Martin still writes in Wordstar, preferring it to modern word processors. In fact in a similar vein of using what you know I'm a little surprised there hasn't been a Kickstarter to reproduce the space cadet keyboard or similar just for the emacs fans out there. [1] https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=type+6+usb+sun&_trksid=m5467.l1311&_odkw=type+6+usb https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=type+6+usb+sun&_trksid=...
  - andrewshadura 7y ago
    In fact, it all started with the AT keyboard if I remember correctly. The original PC keyboard had it where Caps Lock is these days.
    - technofiend 7y ago
      You may be right. I was selling PCs and UNIX machines from a MicroAge and remember IBM trying to get us to also flog their System/34 and Displaywrite systems along side their PCs and looking online the Displaywrite keyboard I found has control in the middle row. IBM was all over the map trying to keep PCs from gutting their minicomputer sales and their approach definitely flip flopped a few times, maybe the keyboard layout did too.
gerikson 7y ago
I always remap Caps Lock to Control on every system I use.
- fmajid 7y ago
  Same here. Unfortunately iOS does not have that functionality, so I am still looking for a decent BT keyboard with programmable keyboard.
  - gerikson 7y ago
    That’s unfortunate! I’m in the market for a new iPad to replace the one from 2013 I’m using now, and it would be nice to have a full-featured keyboard to use with it.
  - davefp 7y ago
    What does 'decent' mean for you here? Something portable? Or are you more concerned about battery life?
    - fmajid 7y ago
      Good mechanical keyswitches and a solid BT implementation that doesn't time out and enter sleep mode too quickly.
  - johnnycab 7y ago
    This might present itself as a suitable contender, compatible with Windows, macOS, iOS and Android: https://www.keychron.com/ https://www.keychron.com/
    - fmajid 7y ago
      Yes, I have a K1 and a K2. I'd prefer a 65% layout, however, and the upcoming K6 sounds more like what I need.
  - begemotz 7y ago
    the easy (and free) answer on mac is to use karabiner elements to remap keys. https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ Between karabiner and hammerspoon you can 'program' almost any keyboard. edit: misread the 'iOS' but will keep this here for mac users
ch_123 7y ago
Unicomp (the company that took over IBM/Lexmark's buckling spring tooling) makes a Sun layout keyboard which is also worth mentioning for those who like a larger keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA (Not affiliated with Unicomp, I'm just a fan of the Sun keyboard layout)
- unixhero 7y ago
  Good to see that there are still really good keyboards being manufactured new. Thanks for the link, I think I will order one :-).
  - guenthert 7y ago
    Can't comment on the quality, but audible click like the original -M is a no-no and who needs the number block on the right? Waste of valuable desk real-estate. Still looking for a quality *quiet* keyboard like the Cherry I had in the early nineties.
    - kjs3 7y ago
      Says who? I very much prefer the audible feedback as long as I'm not in a shared space; many people do. And not everyone on the planet is a programmer; people who deal with lots of numbers (e.g. accountants) need the 10-key pad. In fact, my wife carries a USB 10-key for when she needs to work on a laptop lacking one. If you're looking for a quiet keyboard, look for one with Cherry Brown keys (if you like tactile feedback) or Cherry Silent Black or Silent Red keys if you want the quietest. There are lots of folks making good quality, choose your key, keyboards.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  If I wasn't working solely from laptops these days, I'd be all over that. Finally, a proper USB keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40B5A https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40B5A But the real gold is on this page: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons Meta-Super-Hyper FTW!
mdszy 7y ago
Every keyboard I've ever used I've remapped the caps lock to control, whether in hardware (like on my pok3r) or in software (on my work computer). I have a hard time ever using a keyboard without this remapping done.
- stenl 7y ago
  Seems like only a small win for such a large key. I type a lot of math and have been happy mapping Caps Lock to ”Change keyboard layout to Greek” (macOS). It gives me quick and effortless access to the full greek alphabet.
  - shrimpx 7y ago
    Big win if you use emacs.
- davefp 7y ago
  Capslock is an Escape key for me because I use Vim a lot. I've heard lots of tmux users map it to Control and then configure tmux to use Ctrl+a as the activation mapping, which sounds very useful too.
  - dfinninger 7y ago
    I have “fd” set to return me to normal mode. I picked this up from Spacemacs, and I actually like it a lot. I even set it up in IntelliJ. Now my capslock is Ctrl. I find that combo to be particularly effective for me.
    - localhost 7y ago
      A default vim mapping is CTRL+[ I use that a lot as it requires the smallest motion of my hands. The fd seems pretty cool as that's even a smaller change. How do you set that in your .vimrc?
    - npo9 7y ago
      I use to use “jk” for this. I stopped because several vim emulators, evil specifically, did not support this.
deim 7y ago
For those of you, looking for a keyboard with backspace right above the Enter key, look no further than on basically any European keyboard. We have tall Enter instead of wide one on american keyboards, so backspace it directly above it. It basically looks like that: https://i.imgur.com/OtPxJSF.png https://i.imgur.com/OtPxJSF.png You can find any number of different keyboards from different manufactures. I once had american keyboard with wide enter, and I don't want to return to it.
- b5 7y ago
  While you're strictly and literally correct, I think you're missing the point. The vertical position of the Backspace/Delete key is still the same on US-ANSI and EU-ISO. The advantage of the Unix layout is that it brings the Backspace/Delete key down a row, to be opposite the Tab key. That puts it within the main bank of keys, and within easier reach -- a definite benefit for such a frequently used key.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    More to the point, I've usually found those double tall Enter keys to be a detriment because if you hit it on the bottom half like a regular Enter key sometimes it binds up and doesn't register. It's a waste of space IMHO and I tend to shun any keyboard that uses it. Especially when it shoves the |\ key to some really inaccessible location, like to the right of the right shift key or obnoxiously puts it where the backspace key should be and makes backspace even harder to reach.
- smorrow 7y ago
  I've always wondered why Australia doesn't use the UK layout. Generally the same as the US one plus you gain two currency symbols that you wouldn't otherwise (without resorting to alt codes or whatever).
rb808 7y ago
Does anyone ever use Caps Lock? It seems like such a waste of space.
- ygra 7y ago
  I've seen quite a few people that, either or of habit or due to it being less error-prone to type for them, use Caps Lock for typing capital letters. Instead of Shift+letter, they'd type Caps, letter, Caps. One keystroke more, but no two keys held at the same time, which is difficult for some people. I'm sure there are superior accessibility options, but those have to be found first, whereas Caps Lock just works the same everywhere.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    Isn't that what StickyKeys is for?
    - ygra 7y ago
      Yes, as noted, there are accessibility options for that, but that's possibly not an option, depending on how locked-down the PC is the people are working on (one person I've seen this doing was at the ticket counter in a train station; I'm not even sure whether they still had their DOS-based system back then). People tend to use an option they know over one that may be objectively better that they don't know ;-)
    - klez 7y ago
      But why should I use a non-default setting when I have a key right there on the keyboard for that very purpose?
- falcolas 7y ago
  IIRC, super fast typists will use it, since it’s a complete key cycle and not a chord. Apparently at those speeds, a key press is easier to properly execute than a chord.
- klez 7y ago
  I do. If I need to type a full word, all uppercase (e.g. the name of a constant) or simply more than one uppercase letter I'll use caps lock, because it allows me to keep touch typing without having to change the hand that keeps shift pressed. I never understood why people seem to be against caps lock, to be fair.
i_am_proteus 7y ago
> I can't imagine why anyone thought Caps Lock should have had this prominent of placement. Caps Lock was originally Shift Lock on typewriters, and was adjacent to the Shift key because it was literally a mechanical locking device to hold the Shift key down.
- btschaegg 7y ago
  Although you're absolutely right, I still think there's actual merit in the way of thinking of the sentence you're quoting. Very much about keyboards today is derived from strange quirks that were part of typewriters for very good reasons, but have never been properly reevaluated once they were converted to electronical keyboards. Of course, the main goal likely has been to minimize friction for those users that were already used to typing on a typewriter. Nonetheless, having switched to an Ergodox EZ about a year ago, I get more and more frustrated by standard keyboards and I'm wondering why ortholinear keyboards are not the default by now. Similarly, I find it very strange that a digital interface like USB HID doesn't allow the keyboard to specify unicode codepoints instead of key codes that then still have to be interpreted by the OS. That is, of course I understand how we ended up where we are, but I'm constantly amazed by how conservative IT can be in some respects while changing on a dime in others.
  - JdeBP 7y ago
    There's a deep and complex answer to your point about Unicode code points, which is an interesting question to consider in light of the 1980s shift away from a terminal I/O paradigm. The shallow response is the simple question: What are the Unicode code points for End, Calculator, F7, and Paste? These all have USB HID usages. (-:
    - btschaegg 7y ago
      > What are the Unicode code points for End, Calculator, F7, and Paste? True; OTOH, there already are control characters such as `BS`, `DEL`, `BEL` and so on that also don't make all too much sense if you look at unicode just as a collection of glyphs. So, I personally would still maintain that allocating a couple of blocks for stuff like this wouldn't hurt that much. Also, no one said that the HID specs could not describe a superset of unicode (e.g. transmit letters with a unicode prefix and control signals normally (or something similar)). It's just that the way things are now is about the worst case in a lot of ways. But: As things work good enough, they likely won't change for a long time, so going on about it certainly is futile, too ;-)
donatj 7y ago
Author here, weird to see this ancient post on HN :) I now primarily use a WhiteFox True Fox [1] I’ve purchased from Massdrop and customized at work and a Unicomp Sun Unix SpaceSaver [2] at home. The aforementioned HHKB Lite 2 however is still the keyboard I bust out when I’m setting up a new machine or just testing one. It’s handy, light and nearly indestructible. [1]: https://kono.store/products/whitefox-keyboard-kit-byo https://kono.store/products/whitefox-keyboard-kit-byo [2]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
- rootbear 7y ago
  I share your love of the Sun keyboard layout. I cut my Unix teeth in part on Sun systems and really miss those keyboards. I would get one of the modern copies, but in my job as an admin, I'm always on Someone Else's Computer and it would just be confusing. Maybe when I retire...
drewg123 7y ago
Any pointers to a unix-layout ergonomic keyboard? Bonus points for mechanical switches..
- cameronc56 7y ago
  There are not many mechanical ergo keyboards that are pre-assembled. Most boards that you assemble yourself use QMK keyboard firmware, which you can map however you like. This one is probably my favorite: https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd
mmphosis 7y ago
Similar positions for Esc, Control, and the Apple (⌘/Command) key: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0769/4313/products/apple_ii_8e43f9b0-53a0-406d-ab6d-fab25e3a451f_grande.JPG http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0769/4313/products/apple_ii...
jlv2 7y ago
For my first 15 years of using UNIX on PC keyboards, I had to use xmodmap to remap the ~` key back to the correction location the right side of the keyboard... and move ESC to the key labeled ~`. Similarly with swapping Control/CapsLock. I finally gave it up nearly 15 years ago in an attempt to simplify my setup on new systems.
_kst_ 7y ago
I always remap caps-lock to act like the control key. I posted an article on how to do this on various systems (some of the information might be outdated): https://the-flat-trantor-society.blogspot.com/2013/12/where-should-control-key-be.html https://the-flat-trantor-society.blogspot.com/2013/12/where-...
boomskats 7y ago
Somewhat related - I _love_ the fact that MacOS still maps Ctrl-H to backspace. I recently started instinctively using it as a backspace when typing (finally, thanks to a combination of laziness and vim). I'm finding it extremely comfortable (alongside xcape). Highly recommend trying it, especially if you're a Mac user.
- knorker 7y ago
  MacOS and every other Unix.Ctrl-N,Ctrl-P, Ctrl-I... these don't just work in emacs.
  - __david__ 7y ago
    Yeah, I'm constantly surprised at how many places the relatively less well-known Ctrl-T works (like in all the Electron apps I use)…
  - boomskats 7y ago
    What I like about MacOS is that it's got this covered in literally all contexts - GUI, terminal, Slack, logon, everything. I wish there was a way of getting X11 to also do it consistently.
decebalus1 7y ago
Keyboard bike-shedding is of a very special flavor. Seriously, I've been programming/typing for decades and I went through numerous layouts due to the specific hardware preferences of my employer, while keeping my personal hardware Apple. I just switched and adapted reasonably fast to do my job. I type very fast. I mean fast enough that an increase in speed will have a negligible increase in my productivity. I never had nowhere near the amount of annoyance or desire to over-optimize a particular layout for a particular type of job. The only thing which comes close is the disappearance of the escape key on macbooks, but with the haptic feedback daemon I went over that one. Do most people find value in this? I get that we're craftspeople and the keyboard is one of the most important tools yadda yadda input bla bla rubber meet the road. But do we actually get that much value to warrant so much interest?
- celeritascelery 7y ago
  I think it is 90% hobby, 10% value. It takes a very long time of using a new layout to get any benefit. If you don’t have any interest in keyboards and layouts, then don’t bother. I personally love trying new layouts and keyboards. Though I wouldn’t say they have actually made me any faster.
the_gastropod 7y ago
It really is amazing how many no-longer-relevant problems our standard keyboards solve. Staggered keys, the qwerty layout, and the caps lock location, for example, are all absolutely worse for contemporary computer-use. But the momentum of these things is difficult to overcome. It's wild seeing touch screen keyboards mimic these same typewriter-centric design decisions.
SomeHacker44 7y ago
The old NeXT keyboards had a key under the space bar. It was, I believe, a Command key when used on the Mac, but I have not used one in ages... Seems that I use just one thumb out of two when typing (now my left after thumb tendonitis a decade ago) and only for space, so a good newly designed keyboard would give thumbs more to do. I believe several models of ergonomic keyboards do exactly this.
knorker 7y ago
I don't understand the commenter saying they don't want to spend $200 on a keyboard. That's a $200 investment on something you'll likely spend more time with than your bed, your car, and your sofa. Over 10 years that's maybe 0.9 cents per hour of use. It's worth having your perfect keyboard. I have a custom print 88 key wasdkeyboards.com one. Yes, your work should buy you your perfect keyboard, but if they don't then don't suffer, buy it yourself.
- alpaca128 7y ago
  Also, you can also just start with remapping Caps Lock to Ctrl. It's free, not that complicated and is definitely an upgrade for people using a lot of keyboard shortcuts. Although for $200 I recommend first considering what keys you'd prefer at what location and how you'd change the layout if you could choose freely, a lot of keyboards and kits are fully programmable and come with wildly different designs. For example, multiple thumb keys are pretty much the most comfortable modifier keys you'll ever use.
  - gumby 7y ago
    > an upgrade for people using a lot of keyboard shortcuts. You are suffering from Stockholm syndrome. The keyboard commands should be thought of as the primary interface and the slow mouse actions are for beginners or when the slow mouse metaphor is more natural (e.g. grab and drag a screen element). Shoehorning keyboard commands into a menu metaphor has been a cancer computer design for over 40 years.
- toast0 7y ago
  On the other hand, adapting yourself to the junky $10 keyboard that comes with every computer means you've got your perfect keyboard everywhere. I can go work anywhere, and they've got one of my perfect keyboards somewhere in a box in a storage closet because it came with a desktop they bought for something, and nobody wanted it.
  - frandroid 7y ago
    These days you usually carry your computer with you, but if not, you can also easily carry a new 88 or 96 key keyboard as they come with a lithium battery and bluetoof support.
blhack 7y ago
Honestly the microsoft sculpt is pretty darn close to a perfect keyboard in my opinion. I just (as in a few hours ago) got a keyboard.io, though, and it seems pretty darn cool! Hopefully even better than my sculpt.
DonHopkins 7y ago
"I wish we hadn't used all the keys on the keyboard." -Bill Joy https://github.com/sysprv/vimrc/blob/master/joy84.html https://github.com/sysprv/vimrc/blob/master/joy84.html
euske 7y ago
In Japan, the Unix-style keyboard layout has been pretty popular among IT people, as people don't need Caps Lock as much. Personally though, I can't stand for the HHK key touch (too soft for me).
dogweather 7y ago
> I can't imagine why anyone thought Caps Lock should have had this prominent of placement. Typewriters need the caps lock there because it's literally a locking mechanism, keeping the shift button pressed down.
- m463 7y ago
  I'm glad "they" don't take it out - I remap it to control and "they" would probably use it for something silly.
grymoire1 7y ago
As I recall, the Sun keyboards (and OS) had many other features and advantages that I miss. While many keyboard of the time was limited to two "Meta-" keys (Control- and Shift-) the Sun keyboard had 5 meta-keys, so you can type A, Shift-A, Control-A, Alt-A, LeftMeta-A, RightMeta-A, or any combination, like Shift-Alt-RightMeta-A, etc. I think one of the possible uses was to have a Delete key to delete a character, Alt-Delete to delete the last word, Control-Delete to delete to the beginning of the line, and if you added a Shift key- the delete works in the opposite direction - if you wanted this type of key binding. Another of the ideas I thought great was having dedicated keys for Cut, Copy and Paste. You didn't have to remember Control-whatever - the name's right there. A second advantage - having a dedicated key didn't ever conflict with a program that already had bindings for Control-whatever. Third, you could add Meta-keys to these, so that you can have variations in cut, copy and paste. One action I used frequently was a quick insert - I saw characters in another screen that I wanted to paste into the current window. I pressed the copy key down - and held it down, and then moved the mouse to the second window and double or triple clicked to select a word or line. Then I released the copy key and the words were pasted into the the first window. Also - you could move the cursor around - using the keyboard - while holding down the copy key down. Crazy stuff, but flexible.
- m463 7y ago
  On linux all that is still around. I think meta_l and meta_r are treated the same, but you can do all kinds of craziness with keymaps: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Linux_console/Keyboard_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Linux_console/Keyboard_... I wonder if there's a way for apps to look for meta_l in particular Also one level up, you can set up key bindings for the command line: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Readline https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Readline It helps to learn the basic emacs keys, as they work most places in macos and linux. examples would be: ctrl-a beginning of line, ctrl-e: end of line, ctrl-p: previous line, etc...

133 points by ecliptik 7y ago

The "Lite" version of the keyboard doesn't have the Topre switches, so it throws the main reason to get the HHKB in the first place out of the window.

1hackaday 7y ago
But it does have the arrows, which are useful for many applications. It would be ideal if there was a "pro" HHKB with arrows.
- aricz 7y ago
  HHKB with arrows: https://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html https://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/hhkeyboard/lineup/pdkb420w.html

terofle 7y ago

> The ~ and \ have moved to the usual location of the Backspace. Working exclusively on UNIX systems now, I don't mind the \ being harder to reach. I could understand a Windows user finding this irritating. This guy has clearly never used LaTeX. I mapped my \ to a more accessible location and it improved my typing speed by factor 2 or so.

consp 7y ago
Also as a vim user I would like the esc instead of the control here but that is non Unix standard as far as I know. I also use Windows quite a lot so having the \ somewhere close is nice to have. Though I really dislike the meta key next to the space-bar but that is just me not being old enough to have used non IBM compatible keyboards. As you might have noticed, everybody's preference is different.
- dijit 7y ago
  There are many ways to rebind caps lock to be escape on press and control when used in combination with another key. Karbiner elements on macos and xcape on Linux come to mind immediately. But some keyboard firmwares are programmable enough to do it themselves too. However. What I found best as a vim user was to use ^[ as escape. It has the added bonus of actually being faster to process by vim too.
  - majewsky 7y ago
    You don't need any extra software to map Caps to Esc on X11: Just enable the caps:escape option. In context: https://github.com/majewsky/system-configuration/blob/6c4478bfdbb61f6bdb4c523286b6e85b291807d5/hologram-base-gui-minimal.pkg.toml#L48 https://github.com/majewsky/system-configuration/blob/6c4478...
    - dijit 7y ago
      Yeah. That’s cool, but I’m talking about conditional context switching. ESC if pressed once. CTRL it pressed with another key.
      - davefp 7y ago
        This is the sort of thing I'd want to modify the keyboard firmware for. QMK has explicit support for this kind of thing, for example: https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_advanced_keycodes?id=mod-tap https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_advanced_keycodes?id=mod-tap
    - silasdb 7y ago
      You can also use xmodmap [1]. My xmodmap file has things like: ! Make Caps Lock be Escape and Scroll Lock be Caps Lock remove Lock = Caps_Lock keysym Caps_Lock = Escape remove Lock = Scroll_Lock keysym Scroll_Lock = Caps_Lock add Lock = Caps_Lock After reading this post, I also reverted backspace and bar/backslash: keysym BackSpace = backslash bar keysym backslash = BackSpace [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xmodmap https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xmodmap EDIT: xmodmap link
globuous 7y ago
I’ve been wanting to config emacs to change my special char layout from major modes to major modes. As such, i could make my backslash key easily accessible from latex-mode, but out of the way in python-mode. Get my backquote easily accessible from lisp-mode, but out of the way in other modes. I feel like if i only have a few special chars to move around between modes, it should be easy to learn. I’ve already inherited my xkbmap and changed the special char to something that suites me more and its been better on my fingers.
krilly 7y ago
I rather like the position of \ and / in the ISO layout. \ is on the right of lshift and / is on the left of rshift. It feels nice and consistent.
7777fps 7y ago
I was wondering why there was any need to move the \ character but then I looked up where it is in the US layout and it seems bizarre. The UK layout has an advantage, it's to the left of the Z and is easy to type. The UK layout has a whole extra key which also makes # easier to type because it does not require a shift.
- SuperPaintMan 7y ago
  This is why I'm glad that QMK exists. Because you're using a programmable board (where the keymaps/layers/etc) are stored on the keyboard itself you can move everything about and never worry about where your configuration is. And it runs all all sizes of boards from smaller stuff like [1] Gergo and GergoPlex to giant boards like the [2] Hyper7. Hell you can even get a addon board for a HHKB (Hasu Controller) and mod it in. Although it's a bit of a rabbit hole. You start by moving around your control keys, maybe add a thumb backspace, a few months later you end up with a programming optimized symbols layer [3] and then maybe even adding in chorded stuff [4]. It's a bit of a trip and ruins 'traditional' keyboards. [1] https://www.gboards.ca/ https://www.gboards.ca/ [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/hyper_7_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/hyper_7_keyboard.html [3] https://qmk.fm/keyboards/gergo/keymap.png https://qmk.fm/keyboards/gergo/keymap.png [4] https://github.com/germ/qmk_firmware/blob/gboards-update/keyboards/gergoplex/keymaps/default/keymap.c https://github.com/germ/qmk_firmware/blob/gboards-update/key...
SkyBelow 7y ago
>it improved my typing speed by factor 2 or so. Is it odd that I've never found my typing speed to be a bottleneck worth optimizing? Maybe I haven't thought about it enough. While I overall type slower than I think, the difference is very slight and the result is more time to think about how to phrase things. I often find my hands freezing for .5ish seconds while my brain get stuck deciding on what the next appropriate word is. When coding, it is even less of an issue and if I ever have anything to optimize on the level of typing it would be the auto complete not being helpful enough.
- saurik 7y ago
  I type very very fast, and yet I know I can speak faster. Not all typing is careful crafting, and even to the extent to which it is seeing it printed out and then erasing parts and replacing them is a very effective way to test things out and save state. Most of my typing is just conversing, where typing notably slower than I can speak, as opposed to merely a bit slower, would be crippling. (And even if I am in a situation where I am waiting on someone else, well, then I can type fast enough to talk to two or three people at once.)
- mikekchar 7y ago
  Very early in my career, I started to get RSI issues (before it was a well known phenomena). I limited my typing speed to 32 WPM and also enforced a rest every 30 seconds (originally by beeping the speaker every 30 seconds until I got used to it). I now type very slowly while programming, but usually I'm thinking continuously. Often I'm not thinking at all about the thing I'm typing -- the typing is waaay far behind. I'm convinced that this strategy both saved my hands/wrists and improved my coding. Interestingly, I stream some free software coding I do on twitch (usually about 2 hours a day). I should watch myself and see what I do now, because I haven't really paid attention to my typing for at least a couple of decades. Though, my streaming dialog easily takes half of my brain, so maybe it's not what I normally do... ;-)

azaras 7y ago

Control in Caps Lock is only a small improvement for emacs users. The best option is to put a little pad in the control keys and use your palms to hit it: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7zvw2b/my_weapon_against_emacs_pinky/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/7zvw2b/my_weapon_aga...

gerikson 7y ago
That's a bit impractical for laptop use ;) I no longer live in Emacs like I did for the first half of my previous job, but so far (touch wood!) I have avoided RSI by just remapping Caps Lock to Ctrl.
slezyr 7y ago
Or use USB pedals https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Uvir1H0AL._AC_SL1100_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Uvir1H0AL...
- paddy_m 7y ago
  I'm glad they are all screwed together. Years ago I broke my wrist and couldn't rotate my left wrist in all of the proper ways. I tried some key pedals, which were helpful but very finicky, there wasn't good tactile feedback and I had to screw them to a piece of plywood. What did work very well was taking a Kinesis Freestyle [1] (two completely separate keyboard halves attached with a cable) and mounting the left side to a hobbyist vise [2]. I removed the vise (clamping part) and kept the base. Then I made an adapter plate (plywood) that allowed me to mount the left half on the base. Then I could position that half at any angle and rotation I wanted. This probably got me typing again four weeks earlier. [1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ [2] https://www.harborfreight.com/2-3-4-quarter-inch-articulated-vacuum-vise-3311.html https://www.harborfreight.com/2-3-4-quarter-inch-articulated...

tyingq 7y ago

There are several Sun to USB adapters if you really want to use an old Sun keyboard on a PC or Mac. There even used to be inline devices that filtered the L1-A /STOP signal. Because if you hit that key on a Sun server console, it paused the whole server.

technofiend 7y ago
You can get a Sun type 6 keyboard with native USB, no adapter required. [1] I went through a few over the years before giving up on "new old stock" because they had a tendency to fail. As I recall we have IBM to thank for the Ctrl/capslock swap. The IBM PC keyboard featured that change and was a carry over from the selectric typewriter and possibly other IBM terminal keyboards. It was very annoying for those of us with muscle memory with Ctrl where it was supposed to be. Particularly for programs like Wordstar that had heavily used keys clustered within easy reach of the pinky finger resting on control in the "right" place. In fact there appear to be programs and macros that still allow Wordstar mode in emacs (deprecated), vim and word. So I guess it's still popular. Supposedly George RR Martin still writes in Wordstar, preferring it to modern word processors. In fact in a similar vein of using what you know I'm a little surprised there hasn't been a Kickstarter to reproduce the space cadet keyboard or similar just for the emacs fans out there. [1] https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=type+6+usb+sun&_trksid=m5467.l1311&_odkw=type+6+usb https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=type+6+usb+sun&_trksid=...
- andrewshadura 7y ago
  In fact, it all started with the AT keyboard if I remember correctly. The original PC keyboard had it where Caps Lock is these days.
  - technofiend 7y ago
    You may be right. I was selling PCs and UNIX machines from a MicroAge and remember IBM trying to get us to also flog their System/34 and Displaywrite systems along side their PCs and looking online the Displaywrite keyboard I found has control in the middle row. IBM was all over the map trying to keep PCs from gutting their minicomputer sales and their approach definitely flip flopped a few times, maybe the keyboard layout did too.

gerikson 7y ago

I always remap Caps Lock to Control on every system I use.

fmajid 7y ago
Same here. Unfortunately iOS does not have that functionality, so I am still looking for a decent BT keyboard with programmable keyboard.
- gerikson 7y ago
  That’s unfortunate! I’m in the market for a new iPad to replace the one from 2013 I’m using now, and it would be nice to have a full-featured keyboard to use with it.
- davefp 7y ago
  What does 'decent' mean for you here? Something portable? Or are you more concerned about battery life?
  - fmajid 7y ago
    Good mechanical keyswitches and a solid BT implementation that doesn't time out and enter sleep mode too quickly.
- johnnycab 7y ago
  This might present itself as a suitable contender, compatible with Windows, macOS, iOS and Android: https://www.keychron.com/ https://www.keychron.com/
  - fmajid 7y ago
    Yes, I have a K1 and a K2. I'd prefer a 65% layout, however, and the upcoming K6 sounds more like what I need.
- begemotz 7y ago
  the easy (and free) answer on mac is to use karabiner elements to remap keys. https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/ Between karabiner and hammerspoon you can 'program' almost any keyboard. edit: misread the 'iOS' but will keep this here for mac users

ch_123 7y ago

Unicomp (the company that took over IBM/Lexmark's buckling spring tooling) makes a Sun layout keyboard which is also worth mentioning for those who like a larger keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA (Not affiliated with Unicomp, I'm just a fan of the Sun keyboard layout)

unixhero 7y ago
Good to see that there are still really good keyboards being manufactured new. Thanks for the link, I think I will order one :-).
- guenthert 7y ago
  Can't comment on the quality, but audible click like the original -M is a no-no and who needs the number block on the right? Waste of valuable desk real-estate. Still looking for a quality *quiet* keyboard like the Cherry I had in the early nineties.
  - kjs3 7y ago
    Says who? I very much prefer the audible feedback as long as I'm not in a shared space; many people do. And not everyone on the planet is a programmer; people who deal with lots of numbers (e.g. accountants) need the 10-key pad. In fact, my wife carries a USB 10-key for when she needs to work on a laptop lacking one. If you're looking for a quiet keyboard, look for one with Cherry Brown keys (if you like tactile feedback) or Cherry Silent Black or Silent Red keys if you want the quietest. There are lots of folks making good quality, choose your key, keyboards.
reaperducer 7y ago
If I wasn't working solely from laptops these days, I'd be all over that. Finally, a proper USB keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40B5A https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40B5A But the real gold is on this page: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons Meta-Super-Hyper FTW!

mdszy 7y ago

Every keyboard I've ever used I've remapped the caps lock to control, whether in hardware (like on my pok3r) or in software (on my work computer). I have a hard time ever using a keyboard without this remapping done.

stenl 7y ago
Seems like only a small win for such a large key. I type a lot of math and have been happy mapping Caps Lock to ”Change keyboard layout to Greek” (macOS). It gives me quick and effortless access to the full greek alphabet.
- shrimpx 7y ago
  Big win if you use emacs.
davefp 7y ago
Capslock is an Escape key for me because I use Vim a lot. I've heard lots of tmux users map it to Control and then configure tmux to use Ctrl+a as the activation mapping, which sounds very useful too.
- dfinninger 7y ago
  I have “fd” set to return me to normal mode. I picked this up from Spacemacs, and I actually like it a lot. I even set it up in IntelliJ. Now my capslock is Ctrl. I find that combo to be particularly effective for me.
  - localhost 7y ago
    A default vim mapping is CTRL+[ I use that a lot as it requires the smallest motion of my hands. The fd seems pretty cool as that's even a smaller change. How do you set that in your .vimrc?
  - npo9 7y ago
    I use to use “jk” for this. I stopped because several vim emulators, evil specifically, did not support this.

deim 7y ago

For those of you, looking for a keyboard with backspace right above the Enter key, look no further than on basically any European keyboard. We have tall Enter instead of wide one on american keyboards, so backspace it directly above it. It basically looks like that: https://i.imgur.com/OtPxJSF.png https://i.imgur.com/OtPxJSF.png You can find any number of different keyboards from different manufactures. I once had american keyboard with wide enter, and I don't want to return to it.

b5 7y ago
While you're strictly and literally correct, I think you're missing the point. The vertical position of the Backspace/Delete key is still the same on US-ANSI and EU-ISO. The advantage of the Unix layout is that it brings the Backspace/Delete key down a row, to be opposite the Tab key. That puts it within the main bank of keys, and within easier reach -- a definite benefit for such a frequently used key.
- jandrese 7y ago
  More to the point, I've usually found those double tall Enter keys to be a detriment because if you hit it on the bottom half like a regular Enter key sometimes it binds up and doesn't register. It's a waste of space IMHO and I tend to shun any keyboard that uses it. Especially when it shoves the |\ key to some really inaccessible location, like to the right of the right shift key or obnoxiously puts it where the backspace key should be and makes backspace even harder to reach.
smorrow 7y ago
I've always wondered why Australia doesn't use the UK layout. Generally the same as the US one plus you gain two currency symbols that you wouldn't otherwise (without resorting to alt codes or whatever).

rb808 7y ago

Does anyone ever use Caps Lock? It seems like such a waste of space.

ygra 7y ago
I've seen quite a few people that, either or of habit or due to it being less error-prone to type for them, use Caps Lock for typing capital letters. Instead of Shift+letter, they'd type Caps, letter, Caps. One keystroke more, but no two keys held at the same time, which is difficult for some people. I'm sure there are superior accessibility options, but those have to be found first, whereas Caps Lock just works the same everywhere.
- jandrese 7y ago
  Isn't that what StickyKeys is for?
  - ygra 7y ago
    Yes, as noted, there are accessibility options for that, but that's possibly not an option, depending on how locked-down the PC is the people are working on (one person I've seen this doing was at the ticket counter in a train station; I'm not even sure whether they still had their DOS-based system back then). People tend to use an option they know over one that may be objectively better that they don't know ;-)
  - klez 7y ago
    But why should I use a non-default setting when I have a key right there on the keyboard for that very purpose?
falcolas 7y ago
IIRC, super fast typists will use it, since it’s a complete key cycle and not a chord. Apparently at those speeds, a key press is easier to properly execute than a chord.
klez 7y ago
I do. If I need to type a full word, all uppercase (e.g. the name of a constant) or simply more than one uppercase letter I'll use caps lock, because it allows me to keep touch typing without having to change the hand that keeps shift pressed. I never understood why people seem to be against caps lock, to be fair.

i_am_proteus 7y ago

> I can't imagine why anyone thought Caps Lock should have had this prominent of placement. Caps Lock was originally Shift Lock on typewriters, and was adjacent to the Shift key because it was literally a mechanical locking device to hold the Shift key down.

btschaegg 7y ago
Although you're absolutely right, I still think there's actual merit in the way of thinking of the sentence you're quoting. Very much about keyboards today is derived from strange quirks that were part of typewriters for very good reasons, but have never been properly reevaluated once they were converted to electronical keyboards. Of course, the main goal likely has been to minimize friction for those users that were already used to typing on a typewriter. Nonetheless, having switched to an Ergodox EZ about a year ago, I get more and more frustrated by standard keyboards and I'm wondering why ortholinear keyboards are not the default by now. Similarly, I find it very strange that a digital interface like USB HID doesn't allow the keyboard to specify unicode codepoints instead of key codes that then still have to be interpreted by the OS. That is, of course I understand how we ended up where we are, but I'm constantly amazed by how conservative IT can be in some respects while changing on a dime in others.
- JdeBP 7y ago
  There's a deep and complex answer to your point about Unicode code points, which is an interesting question to consider in light of the 1980s shift away from a terminal I/O paradigm. The shallow response is the simple question: What are the Unicode code points for End, Calculator, F7, and Paste? These all have USB HID usages. (-:
  - btschaegg 7y ago
    > What are the Unicode code points for End, Calculator, F7, and Paste? True; OTOH, there already are control characters such as `BS`, `DEL`, `BEL` and so on that also don't make all too much sense if you look at unicode just as a collection of glyphs. So, I personally would still maintain that allocating a couple of blocks for stuff like this wouldn't hurt that much. Also, no one said that the HID specs could not describe a superset of unicode (e.g. transmit letters with a unicode prefix and control signals normally (or something similar)). It's just that the way things are now is about the worst case in a lot of ways. But: As things work good enough, they likely won't change for a long time, so going on about it certainly is futile, too ;-)

donatj 7y ago

Author here, weird to see this ancient post on HN :) I now primarily use a WhiteFox True Fox [1] I’ve purchased from Massdrop and customized at work and a Unicomp Sun Unix SpaceSaver [2] at home. The aforementioned HHKB Lite 2 however is still the keyboard I bust out when I’m setting up a new machine or just testing one. It’s handy, light and nearly indestructible. [1]: https://kono.store/products/whitefox-keyboard-kit-byo https://kono.store/products/whitefox-keyboard-kit-byo [2]: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA

rootbear 7y ago
I share your love of the Sun keyboard layout. I cut my Unix teeth in part on Sun systems and really miss those keyboards. I would get one of the modern copies, but in my job as an admin, I'm always on Someone Else's Computer and it would just be confusing. Maybe when I retire...

drewg123 7y ago

Any pointers to a unix-layout ergonomic keyboard? Bonus points for mechanical switches..

cameronc56 7y ago
There are not many mechanical ergo keyboards that are pre-assembled. Most boards that you assemble yourself use QMK keyboard firmware, which you can map however you like. This one is probably my favorite: https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd

mmphosis 7y ago

Similar positions for Esc, Control, and the Apple (⌘/Command) key: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0769/4313/products/apple_ii_8e43f9b0-53a0-406d-ab6d-fab25e3a451f_grande.JPG http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0769/4313/products/apple_ii...

jlv2 7y ago

For my first 15 years of using UNIX on PC keyboards, I had to use xmodmap to remap the ~` key back to the correction location the right side of the keyboard... and move ESC to the key labeled ~`. Similarly with swapping Control/CapsLock. I finally gave it up nearly 15 years ago in an attempt to simplify my setup on new systems.

_kst_ 7y ago

I always remap caps-lock to act like the control key. I posted an article on how to do this on various systems (some of the information might be outdated): https://the-flat-trantor-society.blogspot.com/2013/12/where-should-control-key-be.html https://the-flat-trantor-society.blogspot.com/2013/12/where-...

boomskats 7y ago

Somewhat related - I _love_ the fact that MacOS still maps Ctrl-H to backspace. I recently started instinctively using it as a backspace when typing (finally, thanks to a combination of laziness and vim). I'm finding it extremely comfortable (alongside xcape). Highly recommend trying it, especially if you're a Mac user.

knorker 7y ago
MacOS and every other Unix.Ctrl-N,Ctrl-P, Ctrl-I... these don't just work in emacs.
- __david__ 7y ago
  Yeah, I'm constantly surprised at how many places the relatively less well-known Ctrl-T works (like in all the Electron apps I use)…
- boomskats 7y ago
  What I like about MacOS is that it's got this covered in literally all contexts - GUI, terminal, Slack, logon, everything. I wish there was a way of getting X11 to also do it consistently.

decebalus1 7y ago

Keyboard bike-shedding is of a very special flavor. Seriously, I've been programming/typing for decades and I went through numerous layouts due to the specific hardware preferences of my employer, while keeping my personal hardware Apple. I just switched and adapted reasonably fast to do my job. I type very fast. I mean fast enough that an increase in speed will have a negligible increase in my productivity. I never had nowhere near the amount of annoyance or desire to over-optimize a particular layout for a particular type of job. The only thing which comes close is the disappearance of the escape key on macbooks, but with the haptic feedback daemon I went over that one. Do most people find value in this? I get that we're craftspeople and the keyboard is one of the most important tools yadda yadda input bla bla rubber meet the road. But do we actually get that much value to warrant so much interest?

celeritascelery 7y ago
I think it is 90% hobby, 10% value. It takes a very long time of using a new layout to get any benefit. If you don’t have any interest in keyboards and layouts, then don’t bother. I personally love trying new layouts and keyboards. Though I wouldn’t say they have actually made me any faster.

the_gastropod 7y ago

It really is amazing how many no-longer-relevant problems our standard keyboards solve. Staggered keys, the qwerty layout, and the caps lock location, for example, are all absolutely worse for contemporary computer-use. But the momentum of these things is difficult to overcome. It's wild seeing touch screen keyboards mimic these same typewriter-centric design decisions.

SomeHacker44 7y ago

The old NeXT keyboards had a key under the space bar. It was, I believe, a Command key when used on the Mac, but I have not used one in ages... Seems that I use just one thumb out of two when typing (now my left after thumb tendonitis a decade ago) and only for space, so a good newly designed keyboard would give thumbs more to do. I believe several models of ergonomic keyboards do exactly this.

knorker 7y ago

I don't understand the commenter saying they don't want to spend $200 on a keyboard. That's a $200 investment on something you'll likely spend more time with than your bed, your car, and your sofa. Over 10 years that's maybe 0.9 cents per hour of use. It's worth having your perfect keyboard. I have a custom print 88 key wasdkeyboards.com one. Yes, your work should buy you your perfect keyboard, but if they don't then don't suffer, buy it yourself.

alpaca128 7y ago
Also, you can also just start with remapping Caps Lock to Ctrl. It's free, not that complicated and is definitely an upgrade for people using a lot of keyboard shortcuts. Although for $200 I recommend first considering what keys you'd prefer at what location and how you'd change the layout if you could choose freely, a lot of keyboards and kits are fully programmable and come with wildly different designs. For example, multiple thumb keys are pretty much the most comfortable modifier keys you'll ever use.
- gumby 7y ago
  > an upgrade for people using a lot of keyboard shortcuts. You are suffering from Stockholm syndrome. The keyboard commands should be thought of as the primary interface and the slow mouse actions are for beginners or when the slow mouse metaphor is more natural (e.g. grab and drag a screen element). Shoehorning keyboard commands into a menu metaphor has been a cancer computer design for over 40 years.
toast0 7y ago
On the other hand, adapting yourself to the junky $10 keyboard that comes with every computer means you've got your perfect keyboard everywhere. I can go work anywhere, and they've got one of my perfect keyboards somewhere in a box in a storage closet because it came with a desktop they bought for something, and nobody wanted it.
- frandroid 7y ago
  These days you usually carry your computer with you, but if not, you can also easily carry a new 88 or 96 key keyboard as they come with a lithium battery and bluetoof support.

blhack 7y ago

Honestly the microsoft sculpt is pretty darn close to a perfect keyboard in my opinion. I just (as in a few hours ago) got a keyboard.io, though, and it seems pretty darn cool! Hopefully even better than my sculpt.

DonHopkins 7y ago

"I wish we hadn't used all the keys on the keyboard." -Bill Joy https://github.com/sysprv/vimrc/blob/master/joy84.html https://github.com/sysprv/vimrc/blob/master/joy84.html

euske 7y ago

In Japan, the Unix-style keyboard layout has been pretty popular among IT people, as people don't need Caps Lock as much. Personally though, I can't stand for the HHK key touch (too soft for me).

dogweather 7y ago

> I can't imagine why anyone thought Caps Lock should have had this prominent of placement. Typewriters need the caps lock there because it's literally a locking mechanism, keeping the shift button pressed down.

m463 7y ago
I'm glad "they" don't take it out - I remap it to control and "they" would probably use it for something silly.

grymoire1 7y ago

As I recall, the Sun keyboards (and OS) had many other features and advantages that I miss. While many keyboard of the time was limited to two "Meta-" keys (Control- and Shift-) the Sun keyboard had 5 meta-keys, so you can type A, Shift-A, Control-A, Alt-A, LeftMeta-A, RightMeta-A, or any combination, like Shift-Alt-RightMeta-A, etc. I think one of the possible uses was to have a Delete key to delete a character, Alt-Delete to delete the last word, Control-Delete to delete to the beginning of the line, and if you added a Shift key- the delete works in the opposite direction - if you wanted this type of key binding. Another of the ideas I thought great was having dedicated keys for Cut, Copy and Paste. You didn't have to remember Control-whatever - the name's right there. A second advantage - having a dedicated key didn't ever conflict with a program that already had bindings for Control-whatever. Third, you could add Meta-keys to these, so that you can have variations in cut, copy and paste. One action I used frequently was a quick insert - I saw characters in another screen that I wanted to paste into the current window. I pressed the copy key down - and held it down, and then moved the mouse to the second window and double or triple clicked to select a word or line. Then I released the copy key and the words were pasted into the the first window. Also - you could move the cursor around - using the keyboard - while holding down the copy key down. Crazy stuff, but flexible.

m463 7y ago
On linux all that is still around. I think meta_l and meta_r are treated the same, but you can do all kinds of craziness with keymaps: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Linux_console/Keyboard_configuration https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Linux_console/Keyboard_... I wonder if there's a way for apps to look for meta_l in particular Also one level up, you can set up key bindings for the command line: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Readline https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Readline It helps to learn the basic emacs keys, as they work most places in macos and linux. examples would be: ctrl-a beginning of line, ctrl-e: end of line, ctrl-p: previous line, etc...