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Even with console cartridges what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material. Copyright laws does not restrict the buyer from rese

Even with console cartridges what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material. Copyright laws does not restrict the buyer from reselling, that's called "first sale doctrine" or "exhaustion of rights". You can resell books and movies, you should be able to resell game licenses.

nolok 7y ago
> Even with console cartridges what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material And I'm pretty sure that's why copying your own games/movies was decided legal here (as long as you don't share them), because the publisher themselves made it so the physical media is not the product.
sbarre 7y ago
What about digital movies? Or eBooks? Can you resell those after you've watched them? Not arguing for either side here, just saying digital goods can be a bit more complicated than you're making them out to be. First sale doctrine made sense when part of the cost of an item was the physical product itself, but with digital products, there's a near-zero production/distribution cost, so you're really only paying for the right to consume the media (book, movie, game, music, etc) So in that case, what exactly are you reselling at that point?
- raverbashing 7y ago
  I think there was a recent decision by the ECJ saying that eBooks were not resellable, but I'm not sure about the details
- user5994461 7y ago
  Interesting question. You actually can't resell digital movies in France because you can't buy a digital movie per se. The common digital platforms operate on a 24h or 48h rental basis. You actually don't own the movie. You pay to view it once, you could view it multiple times within that timeframe, then it's gone.
  - filleokus 7y ago
    Doesn't iTunes with its movie purchasing features exist in France?
- astrobe_ 7y ago
  > So in that case, what exactly are you reselling at that point? Yes. Reselling is actually equivalent to a refund from the authors' perspective. Problem is that people are too often reselling to buy their next thing rather than because they are dissatisfied with the product. On the other hand, refund policies based on arbitrary rules are not satisfying, too.
  - ryukafalz 7y ago
    I’ve been able to buy a book, read it, then sell it to pay for the next one... well, forever. Why is this a problem?
    - sbarre 7y ago
      It may not seem like a problem for you, but every time you do that, someone else gets to consume the creator's work without the creator getting paid, which reduces the incentive to create. In the long run, the problem may be less books to read because less people will write them. It is of course possible to look at this only from one side, but that approach - from either side - is not sustainable.
      - gjvnq 7y ago
        One possible solution would be for the copyright owner to have the right to "tax" such transactions. For example, every time a game is resold, the developer gets 10% of the resale value.
      - ryukafalz 7y ago
        But, again, this is how property has worked for a long time. (Since its invention?) It’s been sustainable for thousands of years. Why is it not sustainable now?
      - thedaemon 7y ago
        There are in fact, more books now than ever before, using this resale model that we've always used. It has been and will be sustainable.
user5994461 7y ago
Copyright law doesn't exist in France so doesn't matter. France has droit d'auteur, that can be translated litteraly as author's rights. There are quite deep differences. The concept of exhaustion of rights is probably ludicrous from a French perspective. The most common adjective used with the word rights in French must be "inaliénable", because most rights cannot expire nor be sold nor be taken away. That's going to be a big culture shock for Valve. You'll forgive me for not going into more details but this would require a fairly long post to illustrate how different the law is.
- zaarn 7y ago
  France does have first sale exhaustion, Germany to for similar reasons; if you author a book and sell it, you cannot tell the buyer what they can and cannot do with that book. The buyer can use it as toilet paper if they want. That's first sale doctrine, it doesn't touch your author's rights.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
>"what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material" // That depends, did the advertised product say "licence $game for £50" or did it say "buy"? If it said buy then I own the copy and can certainly resell it. If it said "license" or "buy a time-limited license" then as long as they made it clear "you can not pass this license to a third party" and required explicit consent to that, they're in the clear IMO. Beyond that they're pulling a scam and those who hold ultimate responsibility for such scams should go to jail.

nolok 7y ago

> Even with console cartridges what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material And I'm pretty sure that's why copying your own games/movies was decided legal here (as long as you don't share them), because the publisher themselves made it so the physical media is not the product.

sbarre 7y ago

What about digital movies? Or eBooks? Can you resell those after you've watched them? Not arguing for either side here, just saying digital goods can be a bit more complicated than you're making them out to be. First sale doctrine made sense when part of the cost of an item was the physical product itself, but with digital products, there's a near-zero production/distribution cost, so you're really only paying for the right to consume the media (book, movie, game, music, etc) So in that case, what exactly are you reselling at that point?

raverbashing 7y ago
I think there was a recent decision by the ECJ saying that eBooks were not resellable, but I'm not sure about the details
user5994461 7y ago
Interesting question. You actually can't resell digital movies in France because you can't buy a digital movie per se. The common digital platforms operate on a 24h or 48h rental basis. You actually don't own the movie. You pay to view it once, you could view it multiple times within that timeframe, then it's gone.
- filleokus 7y ago
  Doesn't iTunes with its movie purchasing features exist in France?
astrobe_ 7y ago
> So in that case, what exactly are you reselling at that point? Yes. Reselling is actually equivalent to a refund from the authors' perspective. Problem is that people are too often reselling to buy their next thing rather than because they are dissatisfied with the product. On the other hand, refund policies based on arbitrary rules are not satisfying, too.
- ryukafalz 7y ago
  I’ve been able to buy a book, read it, then sell it to pay for the next one... well, forever. Why is this a problem?
  - sbarre 7y ago
    It may not seem like a problem for you, but every time you do that, someone else gets to consume the creator's work without the creator getting paid, which reduces the incentive to create. In the long run, the problem may be less books to read because less people will write them. It is of course possible to look at this only from one side, but that approach - from either side - is not sustainable.
    - gjvnq 7y ago
      One possible solution would be for the copyright owner to have the right to "tax" such transactions. For example, every time a game is resold, the developer gets 10% of the resale value.
    - ryukafalz 7y ago
      But, again, this is how property has worked for a long time. (Since its invention?) It’s been sustainable for thousands of years. Why is it not sustainable now?
    - thedaemon 7y ago
      There are in fact, more books now than ever before, using this resale model that we've always used. It has been and will be sustainable.

user5994461 7y ago

Copyright law doesn't exist in France so doesn't matter. France has droit d'auteur, that can be translated litteraly as author's rights. There are quite deep differences. The concept of exhaustion of rights is probably ludicrous from a French perspective. The most common adjective used with the word rights in French must be "inaliénable", because most rights cannot expire nor be sold nor be taken away. That's going to be a big culture shock for Valve. You'll forgive me for not going into more details but this would require a fairly long post to illustrate how different the law is.

zaarn 7y ago
France does have first sale exhaustion, Germany to for similar reasons; if you author a book and sell it, you cannot tell the buyer what they can and cannot do with that book. The buyer can use it as toilet paper if they want. That's first sale doctrine, it doesn't touch your author's rights.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

>"what you buy is not the hardware but a license to use a copyrighted material" // That depends, did the advertised product say "licence $game for £50" or did it say "buy"? If it said buy then I own the copy and can certainly resell it. If it said "license" or "buy a time-limited license" then as long as they made it clear "you can not pass this license to a third party" and required explicit consent to that, they're in the clear IMO. Beyond that they're pulling a scam and those who hold ultimate responsibility for such scams should go to jail.