9 ms·

One aspect nobody mentioned so far is, why do I have to focus so much on my dreams and "work on the next rocket to mars"? Why isn't it okay anymore to just do m

by arez 7y ago

One aspect nobody mentioned so far is, why do I have to focus so much on my dreams and "work on the next rocket to mars"? Why isn't it okay anymore to just do my job, have friends and watch movies? Why does everyone has to be an entrepreneur and do a successful side-project? Why can't I just have a hobby that doesn't pay off at all, like playing an instrument alone in my room, without any pursue to ever play a concert?

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
The answer of course is that it's fine for you to do that. Just don't expect plaudits for your lifestyle. People are mostly inspired by the great, not the typical. If your lifestyle makes you happy, great, but external validation is one thing it's not likely to earn.
- icelancer 7y ago
  Right. There is nothing wrong with having a simple life that runs counter to all the pressure one feels from the media (disclaimer: I don't feel that pressure at all; I feel the opposite, that we don't have enough driven people in society). But there's no reason there are going to be advertisements and awards handed out to the most balanced life liver somewhere in an affordable city in America.
save_ferris 7y ago
Because our society has an unhealthy obsession with wealth and status, and we’ve convinced ourselves that the only way to be happy in life is to amass both. The irony is that some of the wealthiest people I’ve met seem the least happy and settled. It’s so strange. The concept of having “enough” is fundamentally incompatible with the hyper-growth startup, social-media driven society that we’re creating. Because having enough means that you’re giving up on the rat race, at least to a degree.
- wiz21c 7y ago
  At my age, for me, >>> giving up on the rat race means I end up in a tough position. Either I leave the race, knowing that I'll have hard time to finance another race (kids, etc.); either I stay in, but then it means doing things I don't like. middle class man's dilemma.
  - save_ferris 7y ago
    I completely agree. Instead of pointing out and criticizing the leaders of our society for their role in widening wealth inequality, we’ve happily created this fiction where we can all hop on the gravy train and become millionaires too.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      This is not much of a fiction for a significant percentage of people reading Hacker News.
      - save_ferris 7y ago
        So what’s your point? That may be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the median household income in 2018 was 32k.[0] There’s not a single county in the US where a minimum wage income covers the cost of a two-bedroom apartment.[1] Economically, we’re entering a new gilded age where legislative decisions increasingly favor the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. 0: https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2018 https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2018 1: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-20/minimum-wage-workers-still-cant-afford-housing-report-shows https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-20/...
        orangecat 7y ago
        the median household income in 2018 was 32k. Individual, not household. And that appears to cover all "wage earners", including cases like college students working part time. Median household income is $63k according to https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/us-median-household-income-not-significantly-different-from-2017.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/us-median-hou...
- arez 7y ago
  thanks, yes, that's kinda how I feel. Your comment somehow made me feel better, at least I know I'm in a rat race and that takes pressure off of me. Even when I'm staying in, it's better to have the view from the outside once in a while to get grounded and make sure one does not go mad
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> Because our society has an unhealthy obsession with wealth and status This unhealthy obsession was in large part what drove the United States to what it eventually became in 2019 over just a few hundred years. This is probably an unpopular sentiment, but what makes us bad is often what makes us good. It is not like this obsession has no upside.
  - worldsayshi 7y ago
    Yes. This. I mean, I very much hate/love this entrepreneurial cultural dogma. I simultaneously think it might be one of the few ways that an individual can make a significant impact on society (still with a very small probability) and at the same time I feel it's also the root of our big societal problems. Then again, the problems with endless growth that doesn't control for bad side effects might run deeper than entrepreneurial capitalism. Can't make up my mind about this. It makes society run so much faster. But can't guarantee that it runs in the right direction. And so many signs say it's not.
  - cambalache 7y ago
    90% of the things that make America great(heh), have nothing to do with the obsession with wealth and status,this is just a story some sectors (WallStreet, Hollywood, Silicon Valley and Washington politicians) like to tell themselves.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Selection bias. Nobody says you have to be like that. Just ignore the article and move on. For me, it resonates, because the perspective of "doing my job, having friends and watching movies" sounds depressingly empty to me. I want to work on the next rocket to Mars (yes, I really do want to work on space rockets - because I care about space rockets). I don't buy into the pressure you're seeing either. If your heart doesn't drive you to strive for meaning in your own work, then you won't be happy chasing it because social pressure tells you to. Not everyone ticks this way, and this is fine.
- edejong 7y ago
  Thanks, your answer resonates with me. To add to it, a life goal doesn't need to be exorbital (pun intended). Just know what you are working towards, and take pride in the steps towards your end goal.
- arez 7y ago
  it's not just this article. I feel the pressure in my every day life. I already have a job that fulfills me and where I give 100%, does that mean I will be the next CTO, no probably not, so I can't even claim to push my career that much. It's just that you read online about all these people that do open-source stuff, create their own website/business, build tools, do research etc. that you feel left out and the big pressure to do something meaningful. In addition nowadays you have to do something meaningful for the world, but it's hard to impress the world or the community, because in your community (like the hacker-news, reddit, indie hacker) there are now thousands or millions of people, you have to do something very substantial to actual get noticed.
  - hoorayimhelping 7y ago
    >I already have a job that fulfills me and where I give 100%, does that mean I will be the next CTO, no probably not, so I can't even claim to push my career that much. What more do you want? Think of how many people there are in the world who want that. Who just wish they didn't dread waking up every morning to go to work. I love my job and I'm completely fulfilled with it. It's all how you look at it - we've made it as far as I'm concerned, anything else is icing on the cake. Really, the question you might want to ask yourself is: do you even want to be a CTO? I don't, it sounds like a set of skills and activities I don't really want to work on. I'd rather be a good engineer who helps other people grow in their career, who also gets to fish and surf in the morning and play video games in the evening. Whenever I feel the way you're feeling, I think back to this quote by Kurt Vonnegut about Joseph Heller: True story, Word of Honor: Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer now dead, and I were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. I said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel 'Catch-22' has earned in its entire history?" And Joe said, "I've got something he can never have." And I said, "What on earth could that be, Joe?" And Joe said, "The knowledge that I've got enough." Not bad! Rest in peace!
hateful 7y ago
I think the point of the article was more that you didn't get to to do what you wanted to do, regardless of what that thing is. If you wanted to watch TV because you enjoy it, fine (the time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time). But if you get caught up in things that you didn't want to do (responding to notifications every n amount of minutes) then you didn't do what you wanted to do and YOUR time was wasted. Unless of course you enjoy responding to those messages, but then you ARE doing what you wanted to do and it negates the whole thing!
mrfusion 7y ago
Just try to better yourself or better humanity. Star Trek taught me that.
AriaMinaei 7y ago
I hope I don't come off harsh, as that is not my intention. > Why isn't it okay anymore to just do my job, have friends and watch movies? The reason you get to "just do your job, have friends, and watch movies," is because of the advances in science/technology/government/economics/art/etc that gave you and your ancestors enough surplus in productivity so you can afford spending some of your time watching movies. Those leaps would not have been possible if the persons working on them shared your attitude. So much suffering has been avoided by people who sacrificed their comfort discovering vaccines, inventing engines, or rallying people behind a cause. It's more than likely that you and I would not even be alive today without those sacrifices. I don't know about you, but I feel I owe my life and my privileges to people who didn't "just do their job." And it inspires me to pay it forward. Now don't get me wrong, maybe it is okay to "just do your job and watch movies." But don't lose sight of why you get to do that.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Agreed. But the way I see it, the reason for all these sacrifices is so that other people can live a better, happier life. On the one hand, I'm with 'icelancer here - there's not enough driven people in the society (that is, driven to do things, and not driven to gain status by incidentally doing some things). The more they are, the faster things can improve. On the other hand, everything seems to indicate that there will always be something to improve, so if everyone was driven like this, nobody would be left to enjoy the fruits of these sacrifices, making them ultimately pointless. I don't know what the right balance is. I know I myself am not going to pressure anyone into seeking meaning outside their social circle and entertainment. From what I've observed, there seems to be a default balance - some people are happy with having a decent and a loving circle of friends (like OP), and some are unhappy with it (like myself). I see no good justification for forcing either kind to change, and I don't see either as better or worse than the other.
  - AriaMinaei 7y ago
    > everything seems to indicate that there will always be something to improve, so if everyone was driven like this, nobody would be left to enjoy the fruits of these sacrifices, making them ultimately pointless. I agree. But to me, this is not a dichotomy. As in, you don't have to choose between complete comfort (do your job and watch movies) and total sacrifice (devote all your time to a cause). You can have time for friends and hobbies and still do great good for your community and the larger society.
cpach 7y ago
It’s totally fine to do that. To each their own :)
friedman23 7y ago
It's fine to do that. But notice how all the things you want to do are consumption and not creation. Somebody needs to create those things you want to consume and considering how that is all you really want to do it should be easy to understand why society values those things so highly and pushes people to do them.
rglover 7y ago
You can, and please do—be happy. We need more happy people in the world. I've found that the people who push others or suggest others do what they're doing are insecure about their own pursuits (and I say that as someone who _does_ spend most of their time aggressively pursuing their own ideas).
- elevenoh 7y ago
  >I've found that the people who push others or suggest others do what they're doing are insecure about their own pursuits Alternatively, might they simply value to enter world (through themselves & others)?
adventskalender 7y ago
Maybe part of the problem is that jobs are not forever anymore. So it is a good idea to hedge one's bets and have side projects.
rs23296008n1 7y ago
You mean you don't work in fast-food service biding your time while secretly doing cancer research, battery research and inventing a new poodle? What do you do, sleep, play sport, and have real relationships? Scandalous! Personally I think a lot of the overachiever hype/nonsense is designed to just remind people how little they are. Its not to build them up. Its a different but same version of something used to sell products like cosmetics: make people feel insecure then sell them something. (Now someone will argue I'm somehow against doing your best. Nice try)
james_s_tayler 7y ago
You totally can. Many people do. The people that do aren't the target audience of these kind of articles. It's simply not relevant to them. And that's OK.
Viliam1234 7y ago
> Why isn't it okay anymore to just do my job, have friends and watch movies? Partially because you having friends and watching movies doesn't make anyone rich. When people give you advice, it's meant to improve their lives, not yours. A guy who writes books will tell you to read more books, a guy who organizes seminars will tell you to attend more seminars, a venture capitalist will tell you to create a startup. (If you need to be told that watching movies is all right, you have to ask Netflix.)
tomrod 7y ago
I see nothing wrong with this. 100% nothing amiss. For me, I was part of early-career layoffs during a recession. I push myself because I was put in a hard situation, and I want control over my career. I have that now, and I still push (though not as hard) to maintain it. It keeps my anxiety over providing for my responsibilities in check. I want to be independent.

by arez 7y ago

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

The answer of course is that it's fine for you to do that. Just don't expect plaudits for your lifestyle. People are mostly inspired by the great, not the typical. If your lifestyle makes you happy, great, but external validation is one thing it's not likely to earn.

icelancer 7y ago
Right. There is nothing wrong with having a simple life that runs counter to all the pressure one feels from the media (disclaimer: I don't feel that pressure at all; I feel the opposite, that we don't have enough driven people in society). But there's no reason there are going to be advertisements and awards handed out to the most balanced life liver somewhere in an affordable city in America.

save_ferris 7y ago

Because our society has an unhealthy obsession with wealth and status, and we’ve convinced ourselves that the only way to be happy in life is to amass both. The irony is that some of the wealthiest people I’ve met seem the least happy and settled. It’s so strange. The concept of having “enough” is fundamentally incompatible with the hyper-growth startup, social-media driven society that we’re creating. Because having enough means that you’re giving up on the rat race, at least to a degree.

wiz21c 7y ago
At my age, for me, >>> giving up on the rat race means I end up in a tough position. Either I leave the race, knowing that I'll have hard time to finance another race (kids, etc.); either I stay in, but then it means doing things I don't like. middle class man's dilemma.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  I completely agree. Instead of pointing out and criticizing the leaders of our society for their role in widening wealth inequality, we’ve happily created this fiction where we can all hop on the gravy train and become millionaires too.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    This is not much of a fiction for a significant percentage of people reading Hacker News.
    - save_ferris 7y ago
      So what’s your point? That may be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that the median household income in 2018 was 32k.[0] There’s not a single county in the US where a minimum wage income covers the cost of a two-bedroom apartment.[1] Economically, we’re entering a new gilded age where legislative decisions increasingly favor the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. 0: https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2018 https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2018 1: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-20/minimum-wage-workers-still-cant-afford-housing-report-shows https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2019-06-20/...
      - orangecat 7y ago
        the median household income in 2018 was 32k. Individual, not household. And that appears to cover all "wage earners", including cases like college students working part time. Median household income is $63k according to https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/us-median-household-income-not-significantly-different-from-2017.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/us-median-hou...
arez 7y ago
thanks, yes, that's kinda how I feel. Your comment somehow made me feel better, at least I know I'm in a rat race and that takes pressure off of me. Even when I'm staying in, it's better to have the view from the outside once in a while to get grounded and make sure one does not go mad
icelancer 7y ago
>> Because our society has an unhealthy obsession with wealth and status This unhealthy obsession was in large part what drove the United States to what it eventually became in 2019 over just a few hundred years. This is probably an unpopular sentiment, but what makes us bad is often what makes us good. It is not like this obsession has no upside.
- worldsayshi 7y ago
  Yes. This. I mean, I very much hate/love this entrepreneurial cultural dogma. I simultaneously think it might be one of the few ways that an individual can make a significant impact on society (still with a very small probability) and at the same time I feel it's also the root of our big societal problems. Then again, the problems with endless growth that doesn't control for bad side effects might run deeper than entrepreneurial capitalism. Can't make up my mind about this. It makes society run so much faster. But can't guarantee that it runs in the right direction. And so many signs say it's not.
- cambalache 7y ago
  90% of the things that make America great(heh), have nothing to do with the obsession with wealth and status,this is just a story some sectors (WallStreet, Hollywood, Silicon Valley and Washington politicians) like to tell themselves.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

Selection bias. Nobody says you have to be like that. Just ignore the article and move on. For me, it resonates, because the perspective of "doing my job, having friends and watching movies" sounds depressingly empty to me. I want to work on the next rocket to Mars (yes, I really do want to work on space rockets - because I care about space rockets). I don't buy into the pressure you're seeing either. If your heart doesn't drive you to strive for meaning in your own work, then you won't be happy chasing it because social pressure tells you to. Not everyone ticks this way, and this is fine.

edejong 7y ago
Thanks, your answer resonates with me. To add to it, a life goal doesn't need to be exorbital (pun intended). Just know what you are working towards, and take pride in the steps towards your end goal.
arez 7y ago
it's not just this article. I feel the pressure in my every day life. I already have a job that fulfills me and where I give 100%, does that mean I will be the next CTO, no probably not, so I can't even claim to push my career that much. It's just that you read online about all these people that do open-source stuff, create their own website/business, build tools, do research etc. that you feel left out and the big pressure to do something meaningful. In addition nowadays you have to do something meaningful for the world, but it's hard to impress the world or the community, because in your community (like the hacker-news, reddit, indie hacker) there are now thousands or millions of people, you have to do something very substantial to actual get noticed.
- hoorayimhelping 7y ago
  >I already have a job that fulfills me and where I give 100%, does that mean I will be the next CTO, no probably not, so I can't even claim to push my career that much. What more do you want? Think of how many people there are in the world who want that. Who just wish they didn't dread waking up every morning to go to work. I love my job and I'm completely fulfilled with it. It's all how you look at it - we've made it as far as I'm concerned, anything else is icing on the cake. Really, the question you might want to ask yourself is: do you even want to be a CTO? I don't, it sounds like a set of skills and activities I don't really want to work on. I'd rather be a good engineer who helps other people grow in their career, who also gets to fish and surf in the morning and play video games in the evening. Whenever I feel the way you're feeling, I think back to this quote by Kurt Vonnegut about Joseph Heller: True story, Word of Honor: Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer now dead, and I were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. I said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel 'Catch-22' has earned in its entire history?" And Joe said, "I've got something he can never have." And I said, "What on earth could that be, Joe?" And Joe said, "The knowledge that I've got enough." Not bad! Rest in peace!

hateful 7y ago

I think the point of the article was more that you didn't get to to do what you wanted to do, regardless of what that thing is. If you wanted to watch TV because you enjoy it, fine (the time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time). But if you get caught up in things that you didn't want to do (responding to notifications every n amount of minutes) then you didn't do what you wanted to do and YOUR time was wasted. Unless of course you enjoy responding to those messages, but then you ARE doing what you wanted to do and it negates the whole thing!

mrfusion 7y ago

Just try to better yourself or better humanity. Star Trek taught me that.

AriaMinaei 7y ago

I hope I don't come off harsh, as that is not my intention. > Why isn't it okay anymore to just do my job, have friends and watch movies? The reason you get to "just do your job, have friends, and watch movies," is because of the advances in science/technology/government/economics/art/etc that gave you and your ancestors enough surplus in productivity so you can afford spending some of your time watching movies. Those leaps would not have been possible if the persons working on them shared your attitude. So much suffering has been avoided by people who sacrificed their comfort discovering vaccines, inventing engines, or rallying people behind a cause. It's more than likely that you and I would not even be alive today without those sacrifices. I don't know about you, but I feel I owe my life and my privileges to people who didn't "just do their job." And it inspires me to pay it forward. Now don't get me wrong, maybe it is okay to "just do your job and watch movies." But don't lose sight of why you get to do that.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Agreed. But the way I see it, the reason for all these sacrifices is so that other people can live a better, happier life. On the one hand, I'm with 'icelancer here - there's not enough driven people in the society (that is, driven to do things, and not driven to gain status by incidentally doing some things). The more they are, the faster things can improve. On the other hand, everything seems to indicate that there will always be something to improve, so if everyone was driven like this, nobody would be left to enjoy the fruits of these sacrifices, making them ultimately pointless. I don't know what the right balance is. I know I myself am not going to pressure anyone into seeking meaning outside their social circle and entertainment. From what I've observed, there seems to be a default balance - some people are happy with having a decent and a loving circle of friends (like OP), and some are unhappy with it (like myself). I see no good justification for forcing either kind to change, and I don't see either as better or worse than the other.
- AriaMinaei 7y ago
  > everything seems to indicate that there will always be something to improve, so if everyone was driven like this, nobody would be left to enjoy the fruits of these sacrifices, making them ultimately pointless. I agree. But to me, this is not a dichotomy. As in, you don't have to choose between complete comfort (do your job and watch movies) and total sacrifice (devote all your time to a cause). You can have time for friends and hobbies and still do great good for your community and the larger society.

cpach 7y ago

It’s totally fine to do that. To each their own :)

friedman23 7y ago

It's fine to do that. But notice how all the things you want to do are consumption and not creation. Somebody needs to create those things you want to consume and considering how that is all you really want to do it should be easy to understand why society values those things so highly and pushes people to do them.

rglover 7y ago

You can, and please do—be happy. We need more happy people in the world. I've found that the people who push others or suggest others do what they're doing are insecure about their own pursuits (and I say that as someone who _does_ spend most of their time aggressively pursuing their own ideas).

elevenoh 7y ago
>I've found that the people who push others or suggest others do what they're doing are insecure about their own pursuits Alternatively, might they simply value to enter world (through themselves & others)?

adventskalender 7y ago

Maybe part of the problem is that jobs are not forever anymore. So it is a good idea to hedge one's bets and have side projects.

rs23296008n1 7y ago

You mean you don't work in fast-food service biding your time while secretly doing cancer research, battery research and inventing a new poodle? What do you do, sleep, play sport, and have real relationships? Scandalous! Personally I think a lot of the overachiever hype/nonsense is designed to just remind people how little they are. Its not to build them up. Its a different but same version of something used to sell products like cosmetics: make people feel insecure then sell them something. (Now someone will argue I'm somehow against doing your best. Nice try)

james_s_tayler 7y ago

You totally can. Many people do. The people that do aren't the target audience of these kind of articles. It's simply not relevant to them. And that's OK.

Viliam1234 7y ago

> Why isn't it okay anymore to just do my job, have friends and watch movies? Partially because you having friends and watching movies doesn't make anyone rich. When people give you advice, it's meant to improve their lives, not yours. A guy who writes books will tell you to read more books, a guy who organizes seminars will tell you to attend more seminars, a venture capitalist will tell you to create a startup. (If you need to be told that watching movies is all right, you have to ask Netflix.)

tomrod 7y ago

I see nothing wrong with this. 100% nothing amiss. For me, I was part of early-career layoffs during a recession. I push myself because I was put in a hard situation, and I want control over my career. I have that now, and I still push (though not as hard) to maintain it. It keeps my anxiety over providing for my responsibilities in check. I want to be independent.